Mormons Mormons......

[Frisbinator]

At the rate Mormonism is growing in America, by the year 2080, it is estimated that there will be more people who are Mormon than Islam in the world.

Is someone who is Mormon a Christian? That is debatable. You ask a Mormon and he/she will no doubt be hurt and say "Of course, we are the TRUE Christians."
If you ask a Catholic/Protestant (such as myself) they'll say no, (the vast majority of the time) a Mormon is not a Christian, because their theology is flawed .

Obviously Mormonism is growing because of their intense evangelical practices and their very strong commitment to morals and values, something a lot of modern Protestants/Catholics could learn a lot from.

However, everything I've read about their religion itself is just NUTS. A few examples (and I'm just remembering these things from a book I read today, so they may be slightly inaccurate):

Mormons believe that Native Americans were originally white before God punished them and turned their skin a different color, John The Baptist and several apostles were somehow ressurected and spoke with John Smith (The Founder of Mormonism) personally, Mormons have a practice of "baptizing" deceased non-Mormons without consent from their family (such as the incident in 1995 when Holocaust survivors were enraged to find out almost 380,000 Holocaust victims had been "baptized to the Mormon faith"), Most of their rituals are taken straight from Freemasonry, there were specific verses in The Book of Mormon speaking against those with black skin (which were modified around 1949 if I'm not mistaken), and contrary to popular belief, only 1 percent of them are polygamists

Those things are what I can remember off the top of my head. Anyway, I am interested to hear what you all's opinions are on Mormonism.

If your atheist and ignorant about Mormons, then I don't want you to post here because you probably are under the impression that all religions are wrong and I can't really think of anything worthwhile that you could add to this post, thanks.

 

[Tiassa]

At the rate Mormonism is growing in America, by the year 2080, it is estimated that there will be more people who are Mormon than Islam in the world.

That rate won't be nearly constant. By 2080, monotheism will be a tougher sell in the sense that we think of it today. Certes it will survive in a philosophical religion, but the devotional and confessional aspects are already in transition. If we were to assert a memetic monotheism, it could be said that we know monotheism better than we know God, and thus our relationship with it will change.

I well could be wrong in my prediction. After all, who knows what monotheism can pull out of the hat when it comes right down to it?

 

[Joeman]

The fastest growing religion is the world right now is actually NeoPagan. I think I got that info from beliefnet

 

[Tiassa]

What sort of boundaries are they using for the classification these days? Technically, I'm a neo-Pagan whose religion is in hibernation. Whether or not I'm NeoPagan is a matter of classifications. I'm accustomed to a broad, transitional definition that involves a Goddess, her Consort when necessary, Earth magick, minor astronomical observances, fruits and breads and wines, two whole rules (Threefold & Rede), and an unspoken, unwritten commandment to enjoy yourself in life or else.

But these don't suffice for everyone who wants to call themselves NeoPagan.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The fastest growing religion is the world right now is actually NeoPagan. I think I got that info from beliefnet

*************
M*W: Very interesting! The more we start thinking about the damage humans have done to Mother Earth, the more NeoPagan we become. But, I like to think of it as the oldest religion as well as the truest.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

What sort of boundaries are they using for the classification these days? Technically, I'm a neo-Pagan whose religion is in hibernation. Whether or not I'm NeoPagan is a matter of classifications. I'm accustomed to a broad, transitional definition that involves a Goddess, her Consort when necessary, Earth magick, minor astronomical observances, fruits and breads and wines, two whole rules (Threefold & Rede), and an unspoken, unwritten commandment to enjoy yourself in life or else.

But these don't suffice for everyone who wants to call themselves NeoPagan.

*************
M*W: I think it's a positive sense of knowing where our place is in relation to our environment (creation) as compared to the other living things on Earth. It's also utilizing nature in healthy ways, like the food we eat, the water we drink, the plants we use as medicine, etc. Everything we need for our existence is already here and available to us. That's how I feel about NeoPaganism.

 

[Q25]

all I know about Mormons is they arent allowed to drink alcohol or caffeinated drinks,smoke,watch tv,and have sex before mariage,kinda weird and unnatural rules imo.
I dont think too many people will join such weirdness

 

[Tiassa]

M*W: I think it's a positive sense of knowing where our place is in relation to our environment (creation) as compared to the other living things on Earth. It's also utilizing nature in healthy ways, like the food we eat, the water we drink, the plants we use as medicine, etc. Everything we need for our existence is already here and available to us. That's how I feel about NeoPaganism.

I don't protest a word of it.

But as "NeoPaganism" is gaining momentum, I actually don't know exactly what that means. Very few of the Pagans I ever knew were purely Wiccan. A few years ago, for instance, I went to a weekend Pagan get-together. The most prevalent was in fact some sort of Craft-related goddess-worship, but the event was organized by members of the OTO--a curious thing for witches to see armed guards during a ceremony--and there was all sorts of New Age and Neo-Asiatic mysticism sprinkled about.

Some would protest that I am not in any way properly anything-Pagan. On a certain level, I would agree. But it is my symbolic affinity, especially as I consider the abstract discipline of Sufism beyond my personal capacities. It is also the last religion I observed at all, and I never was that disciplined a witch. My grimoire, had I kept it, would present a string of philosophical failures, including a binding I ended up leaving intact for nine years, and a night in which the darkness itself untied a knot and broke a banishing. But there was one day ... the Dragon and I put out so much magick that I still get echoes of it from time to time; somewhere in the Universe, we left a strong vibe. Of course, a symbol from that day is the one talisman I carry. Life is beautiful, always. Because I know that day was possible. Yeah ... maybe I should have been at least enough a witch to keep a grimoire.

Then again, it's only now that I know what I would have recorded in it.

But looking back at what I was, it wasn't so much any one label, but people recognized it well enough by any number of terms involving "Pagan." And it's more of a difference than Lutheran or Catholic. It's almost the difference--Ellen Cannon Reed notwithstanding--between Witchcraft and Qabalism.

(I mean, just look at who I cite from that period: Perdurabo, on his ass. The effing madman himself.)

 

[Halcyon]

Mormons:
http://www.deitie.com/discourse/viewtopic.php?t=486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

 

[StarOfEight]

A few things ...

- To paraphrase The Big Lebowski, "Mormonism is not the preferred nomenclature." Rather, it'd be the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints.

- I personally don't consider the LDS church Christian for precisely the same reasons I don't consider Christians Jews.

- There's a South Park episode dealing with Latter Day Saints that does an capable and accurate job of ridiculing the Joseph Smith/Moroni story.

- For a dark side to the Church, and in particular, fundamentalist splinter movements, check out Jon Krakauer's latest: Under the Banner of Heaven. It's got a general history of the Church, as well as information about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, in which LDS soldiers and their Indian allies massacred a Tennessee wagon train. In a particularly macabre twist, all children younger than eight (the age of wisdom in the Church) were adopted by the people who killed their parents. Eventually, Brigham Young, who had not ordered the attacks, sacrificed one loyal Saint to appease demands for justice. The focus of the book is on the Lafferty brothers, committed Saints who ended up killing their outspoken sister-in-law.

- For a more general account, Mormon America by the Ostlings is pretty good.

As for Frisbee's points:

- I believe that the LDS church has been taken to court to prevent their practice of baptizing Gentiles.

- The church did not admit black males to its priesthood until 1978. Now, however, the racist past of the Church is refuted, although I believe the passage condemning those with dark skin as cursed by God remains a part of LDS scripture. Similarly, D&C 132, the passage justifying the practice of polygamy/plural marriage/celestial marriage, remains a part of LDS scripture. However, the LDS church repudiates polygamy, and has done so since 1890, although enforcement was admittedly lax at that point.

- Frisbee ... I appreciate that you don't want this to turn into a "Mormons fuck their sisters" thread, but mainline Christianity has devoted far more energy to attacking the LDS church then atheists.

- Also, http://exmormons.org/ has some good information from an insider's perspective. Obviously, it's not an objective account, but there's some interesting information.

 

[Frisbinator]

mainline Christianity has devoted far more energy to attacking the LDS church then atheists.

"attacking"?

Maybe "critisizing" is a better word to use there. Nobody attacks anyone, just critisizes what they base their salvation on. Why would Christians want to critisize Mormons? The answer is simple: Mormans claim to be the TRUE Christians. So not only are they saying that they are Christians, but that all other Christians are wrong and going to burn in Hell. Perhaps Christians are justified in their vocal disagreement.


Halcyon, thanks so much for that link. That was exactly what I was looking for. If anyone wants a REALLY great description of Mormonism, scroll up and click on Halcyon's link. Really great.

 

[§outh§tar]

Our Mormon friends are opting for a “face lift.” They are attempting to phase out the designation “Mormon Church” (which has a cultic connotation in the minds of many), and so popularize themselves with a more “Christian-like” designation.

In a recent issue of U.S. News & World Report (March 19, 2001), there appeared an article titled, “Don’t call it ‘Mormon’” authored by regular columnist Jeffery Sheler. Sheler noted that the Salt Lake City Church, just the previous week, issued a statement that it no longer wishes to be referred to as “the Mormon Church.”

The Mormons also eschew such abbreviations as “Latter-day Saints Church,” or “LDS Church.” Now, they prefer the lengthy “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” which, they allege, was given to Joseph Smith, Jr., by “divine revelation” in 1838. If a contraction must be used, they will begrudgingly accept “the Church of Jesus Christ,” or simply, “the Church.”

Though the Mormon people may be commended for some admirable qualities (e.g., strong teaching in some areas regarding morals, family values, and benevolent work on behalf of their needy) these conscientious people are egregiously in error on many of their theological positions - so much so that they cannot, in any legitimate sense, be called “the church of Jesus Christ.”

The errors of Mormonism are far too numerous to detail in this brief column. We will, therefore, briefly restrict ourselves to a comment about the Mormon dogma regarding the divine Godhead, (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

God, the Father

1. The “God” of Mormonism is not eternal. In a speech, called the King Follett Discourse (available in Mormon bookstores), Joseph Smith proclaimed:

“. . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.”

The Bible describes Jehovah as the “eternal God,” who is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Dt. 33:27; Psa. 90:2).

2. The “God” of Mormonism is but an exalted man of “flesh and bones” (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22). The Bible teaches that God is spirit (Jn. 4:24), without “flesh and bones” (Lk. 24:39; cf. Mt. 16:17).

3. The Mormons identify God with Adam (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, I.50). This notion is absurd. The God of the Bible made Adam (Gen. 2:7; cf. Lk. 3:38).

4. The Mormons are polytheists (believing in many gods). Orson Pratt, one of the original “apostles” of Mormonism, wrote: “In the Heavens where our spirits were born, there are many Gods” (The Seer, 37). The Bible explicitly affirms the unity of God (Dt. 6:4; Jas. 2:19).

The “Christ” of Mormonism

The Mormon view of Jesus Christ is equally at variance with the Scriptures.

1. Mormonism denies the biblical doctrine of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. This movement teaches that Adam-God had sexual intercourse with Mary, and as a result Jesus was conceived. Orson Pratt alleged that “the virgin Mary must have been for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father . . .” (The Seer, 158-59).

2. Incredibly, Mormonism teaches that Jesus and the devil were once brothers. In a speech, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle at Salt Lake, “Elder” Andrew Jenson declared:

“Thus we see that Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ, but he rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven with his angels” (The Desert News, January 21, 1928).

Nothing remotely akin to this is found in the Bible.

3. Mormonism contends that Jesus Christ was a polygamist. Brigham Young asserted:

“Jesus Christ was a polygamist; Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, were his plural wives, and Mary Magdalene was another” (quoted by Ann Eliza Young, Wife No. 19, Chapter XXXV).

This is the stuff of fantasy, not Scripture.

The Holy Spirit

Mormon doctrine concerning the Holy Spirit is very confusing. While the Doctrine & Covenants refers to the Third Person of the Godhead as a “personage” (130:22), one of Mormonism’s “apostles” wrote this:

“The Holy Spirit is in a class with magnetism or electricity. He is a divine fluid, composed of material atoms or particles, or in other words an impersonal energy or cosmic force through which God acts” (Parley Pratt, Key to Science of Theology, 1855 edition, p. 29, emp. added).

In later editions, produced more than 25 years after the “apostle’s” death, this passage was removed. Can you imagine altering the writings of an “inspired apostle”?

Still, in the revised edition, the problem is hardly alleviated. In a 5th edition, published in 1891, the “substance” of the Holy Spirit is depicted as “one of the elements of material or physical existence, and therefore subject to the necessary laws which govern all matter” (Salt Lake City: George Q. Cannon & Sons, p. 39; emp. added).

A Final Word

One scholar, Jan Shipps (professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University), a specialist in Mormon doctrine, has suggested that this latest “change-the-name” ploy on the part of “LDS” officials, reflects an attempt to divorce themselves from the “cult” status - hoping to convince contemporary society that the system truly is “Christian.”

With all due respect, Mormonism is not “Christian” - Mormonism by any other name is still at variance with the teaching of the Bible. It may become increasingly necessary to remind our neighbors that churches of Christ bear no relationship to “the Church of Jesus Christ” of Salt Lake City.

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http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/faceLift.htm

 

[Halcyon]

Halcyon, thanks so much for that link. That was exactly what I was looking for. If anyone wants a REALLY great description of Mormonism, scroll up and click on Halcyon's link. Really great.

heh, thanks. I wrote that a long time ago and since have come up with a large list of articles, books and factoids regarding that "religion" that would enhance that article greatly...but I no longer have the web space to host it. Anyway, thanks for the praise, it took a lot of work getting all that together.