Mormon gods Vs Designer

T

Trilairian

Registered Senior Member
So far today I think I have successfully shown Christianity to be a copycat pagan religion:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48811
And disproved Islamic/Judaism/Christianity by revealing the falsehood of the bible:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48815
I have learned a great deal about many religions in my studies and probably know more about Mormon doctrine than most Mormons and so I must admit that in these arguments I still have to address that one fraction of Christianity that will inevitably produce the following counter argument. Mormon doctrine does not take the bible to be 100% true. The Davinci code revelation that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus is commonly accepted I think untimely due to the fact that their churches founder was a high level Mason, which may have connected him to such information passed to their leaders from the templar. In fact many of the artifacts their leader claimed to have possession of supposedly from the American continent like metal plates with writing seer stones a priestly breast plate... correspond to what may have been passed on as the "grail treasure" or "National treasure"(as in the movie) from the Judean temple destroyed sometime in the 60-70ad time frame. They believe that Christian rights were practiced in BC times here in the Americas by ancient American Indians that were supposedly descendents of Israel. Even though I think my thread on the Bible is sufficient to disprove that religion as well, since they do not take it to be wholly accurate and since they would explain away Osiris-Dionysis as perversions of prophesy I suppose I should present a(one among many) fundamental flaw in their doctrine. Though their religion contains "the heavenly father" and creators of the heavens and earth their religion lacks a grand designer - I'll explain. The Mormon creation concept goes as follows. A father god and his wife goddess copulate to have children borne as spirits. These spirits are presented with a plan of salvation in which they are to construct worlds from the matter of the universe onto which and I don't quite get how this happens their spirit bodies are somehow squished into their mortal baby bodies sometime prior to birth. If the person turns out to be a zealous for god person and obeys their commandment of temple marriage then he/she is to wind up in the highest level of their heavens as a father god or mother goddess bearing spirit children of their own continuing on the process in an endless cycle that is eternal, in other words having no beginning or end. Now my point is that for as far as I can tell everyone else in the world the ultimate argument for God is in how nature displays a manifest design or intelligence in the intricacy in which we find it. But in such an eternal cycle, where is the grand designer? For the God designer concept to be correct (which I'm convinced only that much is) it seems to me there must be an intelligence outside of time itself upon which all of the fundamental, mathematical, laws governing the universe depend for their form which then yields a universe that evolves life. I can find no such being in the Mormon religion, so how do those of you who are Mormon answer this? And rather than speaking from your own opinions which I will doubt as fully informed I would like to see this matter addressed directly from the written doctrines of your religion.
 
Trilairian said:
So far today I think I have successfully shown Christianity to be a copycat pagan religion:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48811
And disproved Islamic/Judaism/Christianity by revealing the falsehood of the bible:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48815
I have learned a great deal about many religions in my studies and probably know more about Mormon doctrine than most Mormons and so I must admit that in these arguments I still have to address that one fraction of Christianity that will inevitably produce the following counter argument. Mormon doctrine does not take the bible to be 100% true. The Davinci code revelation that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus is commonly accepted I think untimely due to the fact that their churches founder was a high level Mason, which may have connected him to such information passed to their leaders from the templar. In fact many of the artifacts their leader claimed to have possession of supposedly from the American continent like metal plates with writing seer stones a priestly breast plate... correspond to what may have been passed on as the "grail treasure" or "National treasure"(as in the movie) from the Judean temple destroyed sometime in the 60-70ad time frame. They believe that Christian rights were practiced in BC times here in the Americas by ancient American Indians that were supposedly descendents of Israel. Even though I think my thread on the Bible is sufficient to disprove that religion as well, since they do not take it to be wholly accurate and since they would explain away Osiris-Dionysis as perversions of prophesy I suppose I should present a(one among many) fundamental flaw in their doctrine. Though their religion contains "the heavenly father" and creators of the heavens and earth their religion lacks a grand designer - I'll explain. The Mormon creation concept goes as follows. A father god and his wife goddess copulate to have children borne as spirits. These spirits are presented with a plan of salvation in which they are to construct worlds from the matter of the universe onto which and I don't quite get how this happens their spirit bodies are somehow squished into their mortal baby bodies sometime prior to birth. If the person turns out to be a zealous for god person and obeys their commandment of temple marriage then he/she is to wind up in the highest level of their heavens as a father god or mother goddess bearing spirit children of their own continuing on the process in an endless cycle that is eternal, in other words having no beginning or end. Now my point is that for as far as I can tell everyone else in the world the ultimate argument for God is in how nature displays a manifest design or intelligence in the intricacy in which we find it. But in such an eternal cycle, where is the grand designer? For the God designer concept to be correct (which I'm convinced only that much is) it seems to me there must be an intelligence outside of time itself upon which all of the fundamental, mathematical, laws governing the universe depend for their form which then yields a universe that evolves life. I can find no such being in the Mormon religion, so how do those of you who are Mormon answer this? And rather than speaking from your own opinions which I will doubt as fully informed I would like to see this matter addressed directly from the written doctrines of your religion.
Click to expand...


The only thing you have revealed is your false hood - You speak like that of your father - the snake.
 
Angelic Being said:
The only thing you have revealed is your false hood - You speak like that of your father - the snake.
Click to expand...

dude, please tell me this a plagarized piece of dialogue from Conan the Barbarian or something. you dont really believe that its ok to be this much of an idiot do you?
 
i have you know, i sold this man his hood, and there is nothing false about it. it was selected from the finest hood farms of western canada, grown from only the choicest of hood seeds. his hood is the least false of all hoods, in fact--it is the very avatar of hoods, the hood that other hoods are defined by. you demonstrate your ignorance, nay, blasphemy, by calling it false.
 
Trilairian said:
So far today I think I have successfully shown Christianity to be a copycat pagan religion:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48811
And disproved Islamic/Judaism/Christianity by revealing the falsehood of the bible:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48815
I have learned a great deal about many religions in my studies and probably know more about Mormon doctrine than most Mormons and so I must admit that in these arguments I still have to address that one fraction of Christianity that will inevitably produce the following counter argument. Mormon doctrine does not take the bible to be 100% true. The Davinci code revelation that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus is commonly accepted I think untimely due to the fact that their churches founder was a high level Mason, which may have connected him to such information passed to their leaders from the templar. In fact many of the artifacts their leader claimed to have possession of supposedly from the American continent like metal plates with writing seer stones a priestly breast plate... correspond to what may have been passed on as the "grail treasure" or "National treasure"(as in the movie) from the Judean temple destroyed sometime in the 60-70ad time frame. They believe that Christian rights were practiced in BC times here in the Americas by ancient American Indians that were supposedly descendents of Israel. Even though I think my thread on the Bible is sufficient to disprove that religion as well, since they do not take it to be wholly accurate and since they would explain away Osiris-Dionysis as perversions of prophesy I suppose I should present a(one among many) fundamental flaw in their doctrine. Though their religion contains "the heavenly father" and creators of the heavens and earth their religion lacks a grand designer - I'll explain. The Mormon creation concept goes as follows. A father god and his wife goddess copulate to have children borne as spirits. These spirits are presented with a plan of salvation in which they are to construct worlds from the matter of the universe onto which and I don't quite get how this happens their spirit bodies are somehow squished into their mortal baby bodies sometime prior to birth. If the person turns out to be a zealous for god person and obeys their commandment of temple marriage then he/she is to wind up in the highest level of their heavens as a father god or mother goddess bearing spirit children of their own continuing on the process in an endless cycle that is eternal, in other words having no beginning or end. Now my point is that for as far as I can tell everyone else in the world the ultimate argument for God is in how nature displays a manifest design or intelligence in the intricacy in which we find it. But in such an eternal cycle, where is the grand designer? For the God designer concept to be correct (which I'm convinced only that much is) it seems to me there must be an intelligence outside of time itself upon which all of the fundamental, mathematical, laws governing the universe depend for their form which then yields a universe that evolves life. I can find no such being in the Mormon religion, so how do those of you who are Mormon answer this? And rather than speaking from your own opinions which I will doubt as fully informed I would like to see this matter addressed directly from the written doctrines of your religion.
Click to expand...

theres some problems with this. though suspected, there is no actual proveable link between the templars and the masons in terms of being one contiguous society. theres a lot of speculation to that end, that templar traditions, rites, and beliefs were handed down through the generations to people who eventually became influential in the masonic movement, but those links are tenuous owing to the fact that the templars were nominally destroyed after 1307 and so none of them went around advertising that they were still templars after that. the masonic movement didnt really get underway until almost 200 years later. who knows what may have happened. not only that, but after the establishment of Grand Lodge Freemasonry, the Templar influence took a total back seat in the form of Strict Observance being relegated to The Rectified Scottish Rite lodges only, with maybe a little additional influence in the form of the rite of Memphis/Misraim which is still not practiced by most Grand Lodge affiliates. There are only a couple of places in the world now where Rectified Scottish Rite is practiced (none of them in the United States), and those who practice it are reeaallllly selective about who they include in their circle. no templar treasure has ever surfaced either, although i personally feel sure that at one time the order did possess something either of great value, or compelling socio-political significance. what that thing was however has been the subject of all kinds of discussions and thories ranging from the barely believable (like National Treasure) to other more plausible things with varying degrees of beleivability in between.

The thought that Joseph Smith who was a mason of the Grand Oriental Rite (i think) would posess some type of clandestine occult knowledge based on templar beliefs is ridiculous and unproveable. Grand Lodge Freemasonry had at that point (by 1784), all but thrown out the validity of Templar-influenced freemasonry with the expulsion of Baron von Hund after he failed to prove the validity of the Strict Observance rites and degrees which had been passed to him by what he referred to as "unknown superiors" this may well have been true as Von Hund was noted for his honesty, but it was not enough proof for him and his Strict Observance to be held in high esteem any longer. Grand Lodge became the dominatin influence in Europe and was entrenched firmly by 1811 when the last of the Rectified Scottish Rite was no longer practiced in any form in its system. Joseph smith was born in 1805 in America, where pretty much nothing but Grand Lodge ideology dominates the masonic spectrum.

further supporting the "joseph Smith was not a Templar influenced Mason" theory is the fact that you pointed out that mormonism lacks a concept of god as an architect or inteliigent designer, which a mason and templar both probably would have believed.
 
charles cure said:
theres some problems with this. though suspected, there is no actual proveable link between the templars and the masons in terms of being one contiguous society. theres a lot of speculation to that end, that templar traditions, rites, and beliefs were handed down through the generations to people who eventually became influential in the masonic movement, but those links are tenuous owing to the fact that the templars were nominally destroyed after 1307 and so none of them went around advertising that they were still templars after that. the masonic movement didnt really get underway until almost 200 years later. who knows what may have happened. not only that, but after the establishment of Grand Lodge Freemasonry, the Templar influence took a total back seat in the form of Strict Observance being relegated to The Rectified Scottish Rite lodges only, with maybe a little additional influence in the form of the rite of Memphis/Misraim which is still not practiced by most Grand Lodge affiliates. There are only a couple of places in the world now where Rectified Scottish Rite is practiced (none of them in the United States), and those who practice it are reeaallllly selective about who they include in their circle. no templar treasure has ever surfaced either, although i personally feel sure that at one time the order did possess something either of great value, or compelling socio-political significance. what that thing was however has been the subject of all kinds of discussions and thories ranging from the barely believable (like National Treasure) to other more plausible things with varying degrees of beleivability in between.

The thought that Joseph Smith who was a mason of the Grand Oriental Rite (i think) would posess some type of clandestine occult knowledge based on templar beliefs is ridiculous and unproveable. Grand Lodge Freemasonry had at that point (by 1784), all but thrown out the validity of Templar-influenced freemasonry with the expulsion of Baron von Hund after he failed to prove the validity of the Strict Observance rites and degrees which had been passed to him by what he referred to as "unknown superiors" this may well have been true as Von Hund was noted for his honesty, but it was not enough proof for him and his Strict Observance to be held in high esteem any longer. Grand Lodge became the dominatin influence in Europe and was entrenched firmly by 1811 when the last of the Rectified Scottish Rite was no longer practiced in any form in its system. Joseph smith was born in 1805 in America, where pretty much nothing but Grand Lodge ideology dominates the masonic spectrum.

further supporting the "joseph Smith was not a Templar influenced Mason" theory is the fact that you pointed out that mormonism lacks a concept of god as an architect or inteliigent designer, which a mason and templar both probably would have believed.
Click to expand...
I don't think that Masonry retained a great deal of templar knowledge, I am pointing out a connection others have made. In the National Treasure legend that led to the movie treasures of the Judean temple found by the templar were passed to high level masons and on to America. In the Davinci code legends the grail treasure, either such artifacts or records of Jesus descendents were discovered by the templar and protected by the Priori of Sion who were connected with the masons or those descendents were the treasure and their identities were protected by the aforesaid. Your right that there’s a lot of speculation in all this. I am just making reference to it and saying that I think Mormonism’s idea of "goddesses" and Jesus having to have been married probably to Mary Magdalene was not a new idea unique to Joseph, but were secret society beliefs going back to the Gnostics and before. Joseph explored many religions and I think he caught the Idea from his Masonic or other occultist connections.
 
Angelic Being said:
The only thing you have revealed is your false hood - You speak like that of your father - the snake.
Click to expand...
Now isn't that a compelling counter arguement? Insult my parents. Well, I've heard worse. Most people say worse things about my mother to try to provoke me. But hey, this time its comming from an "Angelic Being" so it must be true! lol
 
Actually what he was trying to do there is say in metaphorical language that you're lying, and calling you the child of Satan metaphorically, because he's the father of lies. It was one of the most poorly executed insults/statements/whatever I've ever seen.
 
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