More Ukrainian Events

[pjdude1219]

Interesting. I thought Americans believed in innocence before proof of guilt? You are assuming pro Russian separatists and or Russia downed those planes because you have no evidence. The US government says they BELIEVE that it was pro Russian but belief isn't knowledge of a fact.

As of 20 hours ago there has been no investigation as yet...

Investigators will have to navigate charred wreckage and regional hostility in efforts to uncover answers into the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which left 298 people dead, including a vacationing family and a World Health Organization official.
The pro-Russian separatists who control the area where the jetliner was brought down agreed to allow investigators safe access to the site to recover bodies and gather evidence, according to a statement from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
It was unclear how soon investigators would begin sifting through the wreckage of the airliner, which went down Thursday in Ukraine near the Russian border. https://gma.yahoo.com/fbi-ntsb-inve...nes-plane-065142791--abc-news-topstories.html

You could very easily have the wrong end of the stick on this one.

ah yes more anti american ranting from the queen of double standards. always claiming the high ground yet always takes the side the most violent people in a conflict. :: yes cause the US is responsible for all the evil in the world and russia has never overthrown a government ever.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The lies, slandering the dead, stealing from the dead and hiding evidence continues..


Our loved ones are strewn across over 12km's of farmland and fields, left exposed to the elements. They are not allowing anyone to even remove the bodies or begin the investigations.. And this dickhead has the nerve to say this? This is the type of lies they are peddling?

:bawl::bawl::bawl:

As for Putin.. Who is meant to come to our home State later this year. Let's hope he doesn't show his face here. It's not welcome.

Hmm. You see Bells you can't read the article I posted through a rain of tears. You also cannot understand the points he is making by emotionally attaching yourself to the so called 'enemy'. That's the nonsense that keeps people from critically analyzing a situation. Then again its difficult for people to come to conclusions if they can't see through the barrage of sentiment provoking propaganda, the same kind of propaganda that kept 49 out of 50 Americans in one study believing Saddam Hussein was the cause of 9/11 (only one person changed their view when presented with facts). The rush to judgement while ignoring all other sides of a story leads to the kind of black and white thinking that casts pro russian separatists as "the baddies" and Kiev as "the good guys". Many New Yorkers also cried as their loved ones were "strewn across" the streets of downtown Manhattan buried under tons of building material, the site also "reeked of decomposition" and of those who rushed to blame without stepping back even a little would learn years later that there were no weapons of mass destruction and the heros were the aggressors and they were not honoring their dead by automatically casting some face scrawled over the media as the enemy. So take a deep breath and read Mr. Cohen's analysis again. You may find Youreyes isn't exactly defending "mother russia" as much as taking a broader look at the situation.

Also in response to the links you provided I will leave you with this http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...le-brought-down-mh17-2014718163942898727.html

Needless to say it doesn't have pro Russian separatists "stealing" the dead bodies to eat for dinner along with some lava beans and a bottle of Cianti. It does say "Leaders of the rebels' self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic denied any involvement and said a Ukrainian air force jet had brought down the intercontinental flight." Maybe its true, maybe its not. What is true is at the moment is no one knows. It also doesn't say that they "hid", or "lied" or "destroyed" evidence but that "Both Ukraine and the separatists later agreed to establish a corridor through the battlefield to allow international investigators in. However, about 30 monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had arrived at the Grabovo crash site on Friday but said they were unable to inspect the area properly and would try again on Saturday. Al Jazeera's Nazanine Moshiri, reporting from Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, said some investigators were at the site for about 75 minutes but "were unable to make any kind of decent assessment" as a ceasefire was not in place." Explains why they haven't found the "black box". It may not be as exciting as rabid Russian barbarians stealing airline vomit bags, guilders and cheese crackers not to mention that cute bathing suit someone packed for the beach nor is it as exciting as babushka's squirreling away the dead like zombies just so they can have their way with them.

Unlike many the Dutch Prime Minister came to the most rational conclusion. He said "WHEN it becomes clear that this was an attack, THEN I will personally ensure that the perpetrators will be hunted and punished accordingly."

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

ah yes more anti american ranting from the queen of double standards. always claiming the high ground yet always takes the side the most violent people in a conflict. :: yes cause the US is responsible for all the evil in the world and russia has never overthrown a government ever.

Well you're a strange duck aren't you. Where in my post do I claim the US is responsible for the downed airline or that Russia never overthrew a government? Though it would be interesting if you could actually name a foreign government Russia has actually overthrown. Maybe you can look in your comic book and come up with one.

 

[CptBork]

... Though it would be interesting if you could actually name a foreign government Russia has actually overthrown. Maybe you can look in your comic book and come up with one.

Well there's classic old examples from the days of the Russian empire. Lots of Muslim-populated territories annexed from the Ottomans, Poland was historically carved up between Russia, Austria and Prussia. Chechens were denied their independence in a campaign more violent than anything the west has ever committed short of nuking Japan. There's a huge chunk of Siberia populated by ethnic Hans and other Chinese which was seized by Russia at the turn of the 20th century (China still wants it back). Russian tanks were sent to crush popular revolutions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Russia's always been on the prowl for more land. Britain in its heyday controlled 1/4 of the Earth's surface, so expect Russia to aim for a slightly larger figure, in order to feel good about themselves and force the world to acknowledge their superior genetics and unrivaled ability to retain hard liquor.

 

[billvon]

Interesting. I thought Americans believed in innocence before proof of guilt?

That's within the US, where US law applies.

You are assuming pro Russian separatists and or Russia downed those planes because you have no evidence.

I am assuming pro-Russian separatists downed that one plane BECAUSE of the evidence we have so far.

As of 20 hours ago there has been no investigation as yet...

Indeed! And one of the reasons is that armed men are keeping investigators away, apparently worried about what they will discover.

 

[Bells]

Hmm. You see Bells you can't read the article I posted through a rain of tears.

The flow of tears are for the loved ones of mine who were on that plane. Not for the bastards who shot them down, boasted about it on social media and on the phone

You also cannot understand the points he is making by emotionally attaching yourself to the so called 'enemy'.

And you can only see the points he is making because your head appears to be as firmly up your backside as his is.

That's the nonsense that keeps people from critically analyzing a situation. Then again its difficult for people to come to conclusions if they can't see through the barrage of sentiment provoking propaganda, the same kind of propaganda that kept 49 out of 50 Americans in one study believing Saddam Hussein was the cause of 9/11 (only one person changed their view when presented with facts).

Oh, you think it's propaganda? Like when they refused to allow International investigators to even approach the wreckage? Or when they fired warning shots at them when they attempted to go near it? Or when they started taking away bodies to parts unknown? Or when they are trampling over a crime scene, removing bodies, moving things, and by all accounts, stealing people's money, credit cards, cameras, mobile phones? They have been caught out doing it by International Journalists who are there on the ground. What propaganda was it that had one of them cheering as that plane fell from the sky declaring "that was a blast"? Was that for our enjoyment? Or the boasting phone call that quickly turned to panic as they attempted to figure out how to hide what they had done? Or the boasts on Twitter about what they had done? Your comparison could only be valid if we were saying the Cambodians shot down the plane. Since pro-Russian and pro-Russian armed rebels not only admitted to having done it, not only confirmed they had shot down "100% civilian plane" and then reassured their Russian counterparts that there were no parts of the missile left, since they filmed themselves and then posted videos online of their laughter as it came down, since they are taking photos of the loot they have managed to steal from the dead bodies and posting them online, really, you want to whine about the propaganda card?

The rush to judgement while ignoring all other sides of a story leads to the kind of black and white thinking that casts pro russian separatists as "the baddies" and Kiev as "the good guys". Many New Yorkers also cried as their loved ones were "strewn across" the streets of downtown Manhattan buried under tons of building material, the site also "reeked of decomposition" and of those who rushed to blame without stepping back even a little would learn years later that there were no weapons of mass destruction and the heros were the aggressors and they were not honoring their dead by automatically casting some face scrawled over the media as the enemy. So take a deep breath and read Mr. Cohen's analysis again. You may find Youreyes isn't exactly defending "mother russia" as much as taking a broader look at the situation.

I want you to show me where I have declared Kiev are the good guys in this? Where? Go on, link it.

And rush to judgement? They are openly hiding and destroying evidence, they are refusing to allow any International investigators access to the actual crash sites or to remove the remains of the dead, they are refusing to allow them to retrieve or access the black boxes. See, when you commit a crime, say you shoot someone, and then you run around trying to wipe your finger prints off the weapon and then disposing of the weapon as everyone watches you do it, you don't get to claim that you did not do it.

Also in response to the links you provided I will leave you with this http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...le-brought-down-mh17-2014718163942898727.html

Needless to say it doesn't have pro Russian separatists "stealing" the dead bodies to eat for dinner along with some lava beans and a bottle of Cianti.

At some point, you're going to have to post honestly about this issue.

Also from Al Jazeera:

Al Jazeera's Nazanine Moshiri, reporting from the Donetsk city morgue, said while the monitors had arrived and were gaining better access to the site on Saturday, their job was to set up a corridor to allow international investigators to get through and not to investigate. So far, no investigators were known to have arrived at the scene.

Our reporter said the health minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic confirmed on Saturday that 38 passengers' bodies were in the morgue, but health authorities later said the bodies were not there.

"Officials are confirming things and denying things. If there are bodies there, it is a serious contravention of the site, it is tampering of a site which needs to be assessed by international monitors," she said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/ukraine-rebels-accused-blocking-jet-probe-201471981632462296.html

So where are they taking the bodies?

Where did they put them?

Why are they tampering with the scene? Why are they refusing to allow international investigators onto the site? Perhaps you can explain why they have armed and drunken fucktards shooting at international investigators and refusing to allow them to access the site? Or are you going to whine that it's propaganda as well?

It does say "Leaders of the rebels' self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic denied any involvement and said a Ukrainian air force jet had brought down the intercontinental flight." Maybe its true, maybe its not. What is true is at the moment is no one knows. It also doesn't say that they "hid", or "lied" or "destroyed" evidence but that "Both Ukraine and the separatists later agreed to establish a corridor through the battlefield to allow international investigators in. However, about 30 monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had arrived at the Grabovo crash site on Friday but said they were unable to inspect the area properly and would try again on Saturday. Al Jazeera's Nazanine Moshiri, reporting from Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, said some investigators were at the site for about 75 minutes but "were unable to make any kind of decent assessment" as a ceasefire was not in place." Explains why they haven't found the "black box". It may not be as exciting as rabid Russian barbarians stealing airline vomit bags, guilders and cheese crackers not to mention that cute bathing suit someone packed for the beach nor is it as exciting as babushka's squirreling away the dead like zombies just so they can have their way with them.

Unlike many the Dutch Prime Minister came to the most rational conclusion. He said "WHEN it becomes clear that this was an attack, THEN I will personally ensure that the perpetrators will be hunted and punished accordingly."

Ah yes, the OSCE investigators who weren't able to access the site.. I like how you leave out the fact that the reason they weren't able to access it was because they were shot at when they attempted to approach parts of the wreckage.

The OSCE mission’s spokesman, Michael Bociurkiw, told the ABC that bodies at the crash site were “exposed to the elements” and “already starting to decompose”.

“It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on. We are going into day two or three now,” he said.

“It is kind of the world’s biggest crime scene right now.”

Mr Bociurkiw said the separatists were “very aggressive” and may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

---

OSCE investigators were given limited access to the crash site overnight but were blocked from going further by armed pro-Russian separatists “for their own” safety.

They were only permitted to stay on the site for about 75 minutes and examined only 200m of the expansive scene, which spreads over several kilometres, before being forced to leave, CNN reports.

Reporters on the ground tweeted yesterday that the separatists fired warning shots when the OSCE mission approached the wreckage.

If it was a plane, then the pilots would have seen it on their radar and would have said something. They said nothing. They reported nothing untoward. So the theory that they were shot down by a plane is just as bunk as the fucktard trying to claim that the people on the plane were already dead.

As for the black box..

There have been conflicting reports about the fate of the flight recorders, but OSCE chief Didier Burkhalter told Swiss television that they were “currently in the hands of the separatists”.

Do you know what that's called? Acting guilty and impeding in an investigation and attempting to hide and destroy evidence. Denying access to international investigators and threatening them and shooting at them, refusing to allow them access to the site and to the black boxes, moving bodies and not saying where they are being taken, trampling all over the wreckage and moving things away from the site and trying to hide things.. It is deliberate and willful attempts to prevent anyone from investigating what actually happened. Now, if they had nothing to hide, they would have allowed and encouraged full access, handed over the black box and secured the site. Instead, they are removing things from the site, allowing people to walk all over it, moving things around, refusing access to international investigators first on the scene, removing bodies and refusing to allow Malaysian Airlines to access the black boxes. They have every reason to be doing what they are currently doing if they are guilty and no reason to be doing it if they are innocent of any wrongdoing.

So make as many jokes about it as you will. You remind me of those people who cheered when 9/11 happened.

One final point.. Perhaps if they are going to lie about a fighter jet shooting it down.. They should get their stories straight first. Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories:

It all started with Russia-backed Donbass insurgents who fight against the Kiev government in the east of Ukraine celebrating the downing of what they thought was a large cargo plane used to transport troops and weapons by the Ukrainian army. But when it turned out to be a Malaysian airliner with 295 passengers on board flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, they went into denial.

A post written on behalf of the chief separatist military commander Igor Girkin referred to the plane as a "birdie" that "fell behind a pit heap". It was later removed. Instead a note emerged saying that Girkin had nothing to do with the erroneous announcement. A day later, the commander came up with a completely bizarre conspiracy theory, claiming that the plane was stuffed with dead bodies before it took off. To back it, Russian online media started churning out tonnes of "evidence" including neatly perforated passports, which - the separatists claimed - had been shot through by bullets.

---

Given its sorry state and total unpreparedness for a war with Russia, the Ukrainian is entirely capable of unintentionally causing all sorts of tragic incidents.

However, it has shown a remarkable restraint throughout these several months of hostilities. Besides, why would the Ukranians target any plane given that the separatists have no air force of their own?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/who-responsible-mh17-tragedy-201471910219862765.html

 

[joepistole]

Well there's classic old examples from the days of the Russian empire. Lots of Muslim-populated territories annexed from the Ottomans, Poland was historically carved up between Russia, Austria and Prussia. Chechens were denied their independence in a campaign more violent than anything the west has ever committed short of nuking Japan. There's a huge chunk of Siberia populated by ethnic Hans and other Chinese which was seized by Russia at the turn of the 20th century (China still wants it back). Russian tanks were sent to crush popular revolutions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Russia's always been on the prowl for more land. Britain in its heyday controlled 1/4 of the Earth's surface, so expect Russia to aim for a slightly larger figure, in order to feel good about themselves and force the world to acknowledge their superior genetics and unrivaled ability to retain hard liquor.

Indeed, Crimea was taken by force and annexed by Mother Russia from the Ottoman Empire before it most recently took it by force of arms from Ukraine. And let's not forget all the former Soviet States and the Eastern Block which were de facto annexations by Mother Russia. And mother Russia used force of military arms to maintain its control over Eastern Block countries on many occasions. But most importantly and most relevant are the recent invasions and annexations of portions of Georgia and Ukraine.

 

[joepistole]

Interesting. I thought Americans believed in innocence before proof of guilt? You are assuming pro Russian separatists and or Russia downed those planes because you have no evidence. The US government says they BELIEVE that it was pro Russian but belief isn't knowledge of a fact.

I wasn’t aware US Russia was subject to US criminal law. Perhaps you can enlighten me. It’s a bizarre and desperate comparison. I’d love to see you drag Putin and mother Russia into a US courtroom. It had better be a really big courtroom. Additionally, what is needed to arrest and indict individuals is "probable cause". A jury determines guilt. So your legal notions are really screwed up.

We are assuming all pro-Russian separatists (i.e. Russian irregular forces) because all the evidence points to them. Russian irregular forces acknowledged the shoot down in the minutes immediately after the shooting. Ukraine has those recordings and if you believe Snowden, which you do, you have to know the US also has those recordings. And the US, President Obama, has reaffirmed the material Ukraine has released.

Nearly three weeks before the Malaysian Airliner was shot down, NATO publically announced they had observed Russian regular forces training irregular forces in the use of Buk Missile Systems. Coincidentally, this is about the time when high flying Ukrainian airplanes were shot down by Russian irregular forces – actions for which those irregular forces claimed responsibility. Now those same forces want us to believe they don’t have that capability.

As of 20 hours ago there has been no investigation as yet...

Because Russian irregular forces are blocking that investigation with gunfire, if Russian irregular forces were innocent you would think they would want a credible investigation to absolve them of guilt.

Investigators will have to navigate charred wreckage and regional hostility in efforts to uncover answers into the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which left 298 people dead, including a vacationing family and a World Health Organization official.
The pro-Russian separatists who control the area where the jetliner was brought down agreed to allow investigators safe access to the site to recover bodies and gather evidence, according to a statement from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

There is a world of difference between agreeing and doing. Just a few hours ago, Russian irregular forces allowed access to remove bodies, but remove bodies only. And let’s remember, the crash site has already been degraded because of looting and a failure to allow immediate and full access to the crash sites. And the black boxes which were initially found, transferred to Russia and now are missing, well that smells of cover-up too. It’s reminiscent of Korean Airlines 007 where the black box went missing and was magically recovered after the demise of the Soviet Union.

It was unclear how soon investigators would begin sifting through the wreckage of the airliner, which went down Thursday in Ukraine near the Russian border. https://gma.yahoo.com/fbi-ntsb-inve...nes-plane-065142791--abc-news-topstories.html

You could very easily have the wrong end of the stick on this one.

Investigators will being as soon as Russia stops its irregulars from shooting and intimidating investigators and allows them do their work, and given what we know it is highly likely you have the wrong end of the stick yet again. You seem to be resting all your hopes on the wreckage sight to the exclusion of all else.

Let’s look at what we know:

• Phone recordings of Russian irregular forces admitting the shoot down of the Malaysian Air flight and their culpability
• Web posting of Russian irregular leadership acknowledging and taking credit for the attack
• Film of Russian irregulars removing Russian Buk Missile System from Ukraine in the immediate aftermath
• American affirmation of all the above
• The wreckage fell in territory controlled by Russian irregular forces, airliners don’t normally fly very far once they have lost their airworthiness
• In the weeks and days preceding the attack on Malaysian Air, Russian irregular forces had claimed responsibility for shooting down other Ukrainian aircraft flying at low and high altitudes.
• Now all of a sudden Russian irregulars want us to believe they don’t have that capability (funny how that works)
 
• Conflicting reports about the black boxes from Russia and the Russian irregular forces. First the black boxes were found and given to Russia. Then they were not.
• Russian irregular forces have failed to contain and preserve the crash site
• Russian irregular forces have repeatedly denied full access to the crash site to investigators and actively interfered with the investigation
• Ukrainians have been calling for an independent international investigation and has been fully cooperative since the incident occurred, Russia and Russian irregular forces operating in Ukraine, not so much. If fact they have been downright hostile to an independent investigation firing weapons in order to intimidate investigators.
• Putin notified President Obama within a few hours of the attack. Obviously Putin was in touch with the action on the ground. Considering Putin claims no responsibility for his irregular forces, he seems to have a pretty good line of communication with his irregular troops on the ground in the Ukraine.

And the Ukraine has no motive for shooting down aircraft within its borders. To date, Russian irregular forces operating inside Ukraine do not yet have jet aircraft of any kind. It is most likely and the available evidence indicates that Russian irregular forces recklessly shot down a civilian airliner thinking it was a Ukrainian jet of some sort.

Now what do you have?

• Inconsistent denials from Russia and its irregular forces (separatists) in Ukraine and not a shred of evidence. They cannot even get a decent alibi together.

You seem to want to cherry pick the evidence. If this were a US criminal case there would be more than enough probable cause to throw those Russian irregulars responsible for this attack into jail. A jury would determine if there is sufficient evidence to convict.

 

[pjdude1219]

Well you're a strange duck aren't you. Where in my post do I claim the US is responsible for the downed airline or that Russia never overthrew a government? Though it would be interesting if you could actually name a foreign government Russia has actually overthrown. Maybe you can look in your comic book and come up with one.

where did i say you did? oh that's right i didn't. but I'm sorry when you seriously try and say we honestly need to look at the possiblity that the Ukrainians who had the ability to idientify the plane as civilian shot it down for shits giggles rather than the group that couldn't tell. I'm not going to take you seriously cause you've yet to been serious on this topic. just anti american ranting.

 

[Billy T]

"Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The following illustrates both old observations remain true:

Pro-Russian rebels claimed they had shot down three Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets in the days leading up to the Malaysia Airlines attack.

Audio of a telephone calls between militants and their commanders confirms their shock when they realised they shot down a commercial passenger jet with 298 people on board instead of a Ukrainian jet.

Girkin is a former officer in the Russian Federal Security Service, according to the Epoch Times. His rebels took control of a Ukrainian base that had powerful Buk missiles on June 29 — the same type of weapon allegedly used in the MH17 bombing.

A missile struck Malaysia Airlines’ Flight 17 over Ukraine at about 33,000 feet (10,000 meters), killing all 298 people on board the Boeing Co. 777 bound for Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam. The U.S. has concluded the weapon was fired from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine, President Barack Obama said yesterday.

“In order to shoot down an airplane at that altitude from the ground, it takes a pretty sophisticated missile system,” said Denny Kelly, principal of Coppell, Texas-based aviation-accident investigation firm Kelly James & Associates.

Widely used in eastern Europe, the surface-to-air Buk is normally found only in the hands of military units -- or in the Ukraine case, possibly with separatists in the country’s civil war. It can reach targets as high as 72,000 feet.

Airlines’ standard response to combat zones is to keep planes at a distance. Regulators and airlines worldwide are now adding an extra margin of safety with Ukraine overflights, routing flights away from the conflict in the country’s east or outside the airspace entirely. ...

While high-altitude, surface-to-air shoot-downs have occurred before -- such as the Russian jet accidentally struck during a Ukrainian military exercise in 2001, killing all 78 people aboard -- they are rare. Recent security attention has focused on smaller, shoulder-fired weapons, like those used by suspected al-Qaeda terrorists in 2002 to unsuccessfully attack an Israeli jet in Kenya.

Before the current government of Ukraine seized power in a more than month long coup that killed several dozen people and the president of the prior more pro-Russian government fled to Russia, for personal safety, Ukraine was major ally of Russia. That prior president was elected mainly because of the very strong electoral majority racked up in the eastern part of Ukraine - the part now in armed revolt (low intensity war) with the current government of Ukraine.

Russian and the prior government held routine joint military drills, and with Russia supplying the more advanced defensive weapons to Ukraine then, including high altitude surface-to-air Buk missiles that accidently shot down a Russian passenger jet in2001, killing all 78 people aboard. The Russian speaking Ukrainians were disproportionally common in the Ukrainian Army / military forces that had joint exercises with the Russian troops ever year back when the Ukraine was a close ally of Russia. Some obviously had to have been trained how to use high altitude capable ground to air missile like the Buk, and probably the Buk itself. Back then, Russia trusted the people of Russian speaking people of East Ukraine. In fact they built tanks and were (still are) the ONLY suppliers of motors for several of Russia's helicopters and other critical military materials and weapons Russia depends upon.

Thus, it seems to me that the MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile that probably had been in Ukraine for several years, not supplied to the rebels in recent months. As the Ukraine government has already re-captured several cities briefly held by the rebels and reduced the territory held by the Russian speaking rebels, and is very likely to completely crush the Rebel's self proclaimed autonomous regime, which even Russia does not recognize, before the end of 2014, it makes no sense for Russia to supply Buk to the rebels that will very likely soon fall into the hands of the current Ukrainian government, which is certainly no longer an ally of Russia, to understate the facts.

The only way that would make sense for Putin / Russia to supply Buk missiles to the Rebels now, is if Putin has decided to recognize the rebel's self proclaimed autonomous state status and plans to positively responded to their request for invading Russian troops to protect the Russian speaking population from their claimed abuse by the current government of Ukraine. Russia has several times proclaimed it is both their right and duty to act to protect Russian nationals and abused Russian speaking communities, even by armed invasion if needed.

The US has as strong pro-Israel history for decades under presidents of both parties. Because Israel promised a "speedy and complete investigation" of any grievous "collateral damage" like the three boys killed playing soccer on the beach, yesterday (or day before?) the US has no harsh words for Israel. Likewise, the US had no condemnation a few years ago when Israel's artillery practice killed a family picnicking on the beach. By Israel own admission, the IDF does routinely practice targeting empty Gaza fields. Israel shortly after the family was killed on the beach held a news conference (which I watched on CNN) that presenting a chart (that gave the hit locations of all but one of the 23 shells fired into Gaza at empty fields). One artillery gun had had accidently excessive powder loaded in the chamber (or was aimed wrong) and over flew the intended target to land on the beach. (Later confirmed by Swedish and other experts who found fragments of an artillery shell in the crater.) I. e. the dead family was "collateral damage" of the on & off low level war, in which Israel has enjoyed an average "kill ratio" of greater than 25 to 1. In the current episode of the Israel/Palestine war, at present that ratio is >300 to 1.

UKRAINIAN security services claim to have intercepted two phone conversations in which pro-Russian separatists discuss having just shot down a civilian plane. A transcript of the phone intercept was made shortly after MH17 was shot down.

The participants are reportedly pro-Russian rebel leader Igor Bezler, his superior Vasily Geranin, a rebel fighter going by the name ‘Major’ and another comrade called ‘Greek’. This how their discussion ran:

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It’s smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

(Ukrainian Security Service Comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.)

Note they were at first expecting to find wreckage and the pilots, not 298 dead civilians. Here it the second conversation between "Major" & "Greek" RECORDED BY UKRAINIAN SECURITY FORCES:

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Greek”: Yes, Major.

“Major”: The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200.” A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 per cent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh--t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats, and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Clearly even Ukranian security forces understood in less than an hour that the 298 dead civilians were "collateral damage" of their war with the rebels.

SUMMARY: There is NO reason to think the Buk that downed MN17 recently came from Russia, and every reason to believe that Russia only supplied them and the training required to effectively use them to the prior Ukrainian government's army that they held exercises with each year. In 2001 that mainly Russian speaking Ukrainian army did use one to shoot down, by accident, a high flying Soviet passenger plane!

~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy, but ~300 dead innocent civilians killed as "collateral damage" when the Buk was fired at what was believed by the shooters to be one of the Ukrainian war planes, like the three others shot down in the two weeks prior, (after 29June), was in Obama's POV: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"

Israel is a "freedom fighter" defending democracy / self determination (except of those in lands it occupies) but the fighter in East Ukraine, who want to democratically rule them selves, not be ruled by the government that over threw the one they elected, are terrorist, etc. The US like all nations has double standards - Friends can do no wrong and enemies seldom do any good, even when both do the same thing. I don't see why theses ~ 600 grieving mothers fail to understand that.

Again: "Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." is proven true.

 

[p-brane]

Ukraine…

The US has as strong pro-Israel history for decades under presidents of both parties. Because Israel promised a "speedy and complete investigation" of any grievous "collateral damage" like the three boys killed playing soccer on the beach, yesterday (or day before?) the US has no harsh words for Israel. Likewise, the US had no condemnation a few years ago when Israel's artillery practice killed a family picnicking on the beach. By Israel own admission, the IDF does routinely practice targeting empty Gaza fields. Israel shortly after the family was killed on the beach held a news conference (which I watched on CNN) that presenting a chart (that gave the hit locations of all but one of the 23 shells fired at empty fields into Gaza). One missile had accidently excessive powder loaded in the chamber (or was aimed wrong) and over flew the intended target. I. e. the dead family was "collateral damage" of the on & off low level war, in which Israel has enjoyed an average "kill ratio" of greater than 25 to 1. In the current episode of the Israel/Palestine war, at present that ratio is >300 to 1. ~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy...Israel is a "freedom fighter" defending democracy / self determination (except of those in lands it occupies)

… Ukraine

Gee Billy, why not just initiate a thread on the only topic that ever really interests you?

 

[CptBork]

~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy, but ~300 dead innocent civilians killed as "collateral damage" when the Buk was fired at what was believed by the shooters to be one of the Ukrainian war planes, like the three others shot down in the two weeks prior, (after 29June), was in Obama's POV: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"

Ukraine doesn't have a constitution calling for Russia's obliteration, nor is it digging tunnels and launching thousands of rockets on Russian or eastern Ukrainian homes. Furthermore, we have here a clear coverup attempt in progress going up to the highest levels of the Soviet government, for a single attack causing greater civilian casualties than anything that's ever happened in Gaza's entire history, on top of those casualties hailing from around the globe and having zero involvement with either party in the conflict. Regardless of how they were obtained, Russia's terrorists should never have been permitted or assisted to acquire those anti-air weapons in the first place, nor any other form of Russian logistical support.

 

[Billy T]

Gee Billy, why not just initiate a thread on the only topic that ever really interests you?

I was commenting on the many post of this thread that unquestioningly swallow the obvious lies told: Believe the Russians recently supplied the Buk to rebels in East Ukraine. Russia has no interest in doing so as soon they will become the property of the current Ukrainian government which is slowing winning the war with the rebels.

As far as Obama's now strong comment it IMHO, was mainly made to counter the political damage his first weak comment* brought down on his head. He had said the shooting down of MH17 was: "It may be a terrible tragedy" (see quote below.)

I am appalled at how few posting in this thread can think for themselves, know some of the history, and can think logically so they just swallow the party line.

President Barack Obama briefly addressed on Thursday reports that a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying nearly 300 people had been reportedly shot down near the Ukrainian border.

"It looks like it may be a terrible tragedy," Obama said at the start of a speech in Wilmington, Delaware. He said the White House's "first priority" would be determining whether any U.S. citizens were on board.

 

[joepistole]

"Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The following illustrates both old observations remain true: Before the current government of Ukraine seized power in a more than month long coup that killed several dozen people and the president of the prior more pro-Russian government fled to Russia, for personal safety, Ukraine was major ally of Russia. That prior president was elected mainly because of the very strong electoral majority racked up in the eastern part of Ukraine - the part now in armed revolt (low intensity war) with the current government of Ukraine.

Except, there was no coupe – damn minor detail again - the former president was indicted by the Ukrainian parliament for murder and corruption and subsequently removed from office by democratic means. And new elections were held and a new Ukrainian president was elected in an open and transparent election. You may recall that indicted former president ordered his police to fire upon peaceful protestors which killed a number of them. The people getting killed were the peaceful protestors. The former president fled to Mother Russia to avoid prosecution for murder and corruption. Yes the first casualty of war is the truth as you have so well exhibited.

"Russian and the prior government held routine joint military drills, and with Russia supplying the more advanced defensive weapons to Ukraine then, including high altitude surface-to-air Buk missiles that accidently shot down a Russian passenger jet in2001, killing all 78 people aboard. The Russian speaking Ukrainians were disproportionally common in the Ukrainian Army / military forces that had joint exercises with the Russian troops ever year back when the Ukraine was a close ally of Russia. Some obviously had to have been trained how to use high altitude capable ground to air missile like the Buk, and probably the Buk itself. Back then, Russia trusted the people of Russian speaking people of East Ukraine. In fact they built tanks and were (still are) the ONLY suppliers of motors for several of Russia's helicopters and other critical military materials and weapons Russia depends upon.

I am perplexed as to why you think any of that is remotely relevant to this discussion.

"Thus, it seems to me that the MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile that probably had been in Ukraine for several years, not supplied to the rebels in recent months. As the Ukraine government has already re-captured several cities briefly held by the rebels and reduced the territory held by the Russian speaking rebels, and is very likely to completely crush the Rebel's self proclaimed autonomous regime, which even Russia does not recognize, before the end of 2014, it makes no sense for Russia to supply Buk to the rebels that will very likely soon fall into the hands of the current Ukrainian government, which is certainly no longer an ally of Russia, to understate the facts.

Current intelligence says the particular Buk unit was confiscated by Russians when they earlier invaded and annexed Crimea. It was then moved to Eastern Ukraine just before Russian irregulars inside Eastern Ukraine began shooting down high altitude Ukrainian airplanes and openly boasting about it.

"The only way that would make sense for Putin / Russia to supply Buk missiles to the Rebels now, is if Putin has decided to recognize the rebel's self proclaimed autonomous state status and plans to positively responded to their request for invading Russian troops to protect the Russian speaking population from their claimed abuse by the current government of Ukraine. Russia has several times proclaimed it is both their right and duty to act to protect Russian nationals and abused Russian speaking communities, even by armed invasion if needed.

You don’t think it makes sense for Russia to supply Buk’s to their irregular forces inside Eastern Ukraine to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft. And you think it makes more sense that Ukrainian forces would use their anti-aircraft defenses against a foe that doesn’t have aircraft…really?

"The US has as strong pro-Israel history for decades under presidents of both parties. Because Israel promised a "speedy and complete investigation" of any grievous "collateral damage" like the three boys killed playing soccer on the beach, yesterday (or day before?) the US has no harsh words for Israel. Likewise, the US had no condemnation a few years ago when Israel's artillery practice killed a family picnicking on the beach. By Israel own admission, the IDF does routinely practice targeting empty Gaza fields. Israel shortly after the family was killed on the beach held a news conference (which I watched on CNN) that presenting a chart (that gave the hit locations of all but one of the 23 shells fired into Gaza at empty fields). One artillery gun had had accidently excessive powder loaded in the chamber (or was aimed wrong) and over flew the intended target to land on the beach. (Later confirmed by Swedish and other experts who found fragments of an artillery shell in the crater.) I. e. the dead family was "collateral damage" of the on & off low level war, in which Israel has enjoyed an average "kill ratio" of greater than 25 to 1. In the current episode of the Israel/Palestine war, at present that ratio is >300 to 1. Note they were at first expecting to find wreckage and the pilots, not 298 dead civilians. Here it the second conversation between "Major" & "Greek" RECORDED BY UKRAINIAN SECURITY FORCES:
Clearly even Ukranian security forces understood in less than an hour that the 298 dead civilians were "collateral damage" of their war with the rebels.

And you think any of that makes sense or is relevant to this discussion?

"b]SUMMARY:[/b] There is NO reason to think the Buk that downed MN17 recently came from Russia, and every reason to believe that Russia only supplied them and the training required to effectively use them to the prior Ukrainian government's army that they held exercises with each year. In 2001 that mainly Russian speaking Ukrainian army did use one to shoot down, by accident, a high flying Soviet passenger plane!

Only of you ignore the evidence and believe that Ukraine was using anti-aircraft defenses against a foe that didn’t have and still doesn’t have aircraft.

"~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy, but ~300 dead innocent civilians killed as "collateral damage" when the Buk was fired at what was believed by the shooters to be one of the Ukrainian war planes, like the three others shot down in the two weeks prior, (after 29June), was in Obama's POV: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"

Israel is a "freedom fighter" defending democracy / self determination (except of those in lands it occupies) but the fighter in East Ukraine, who want to democratically rule them selves, not be ruled by the government that over threw the one they elected, are terrorist, etc. The US like all nations has double standards - Friends can do no wrong and enemies seldom do any good, even when both do the same thing. I don't see why theses ~ 600 grieving mothers fail to understand that.

Again, this isn’t relevant, not to mention cogent. If you want another thread to talk about Israel, please start one.

"Again: "Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." is proven true.

Thanks for clearly demonstrating that fact, though not in the manner you had intended, and to that I would add reason.

 

[Billy T]

... Russia's terrorists should never have been permitted or assisted to acquire those anti-air weapons in the first place, nor any other form of Russian logistical support.

I guess you would also find fault with the CIA supplying Ben Laden with nearly 1000 shoulder fired stinger missles - that is how he drove the Russian back over "friendship bridge" they built for the invasion of Afghanistan. (The Russian had to use helicopters to move their troops in that very rugged mountainous terrain. That was the ONLY way to not be ambushed by Ben Laden's freedom fighters (now terrorists, of course) who knew the mountains passes well.)

Ben Laden was the CIA's best man back in the cold war, just as the Ukrainian sub-division of the USSR was their loyal ally in the cold war. - times change. Japan is no longer the "yellow peril" but the US's ally.

Almost ALL the east European members of the USSR were supplied with Buk missile* - after all they were the buffer states protecting the Russian "home land" from eminent NATO invasions as NATO placed long range intermediate ICBMs in an almost unbroken ring, from Turkey** to the Baltic sea on the west of Russia.

* Certainly the Ukraine was - their army shot down by accident a high altitude soviet passenger jet in 2001, killing all 78 on board.

**They only came out of Turkey as a secrete part of the deal that stopped the "Cuban missile crisis" from escalating into nuclear WWIII - If the Russian ships had not turned back, the US would have invaded the next day. US did not know then that tactile short range nuclear missile were already operational - the invasion would have been a greater defeat for the US than the "Bay o Pigs" invasion was. Moscow and Washington DC would have been smoldering radio-active ashes after the US invasion force was burnt to a nuclear crisp.

 

[Billy T]

Except, there was no coupe – damn minor detail again - the former president was indicted by the Ukrainian parliament for murder and corruption and subsequently removed from office by democratic means. And new elections were held and a new Ukrainian president was elected in an open and transparent election. ...

Yes elected by the parliament, not the people, AFTER all the opposition members were forced out of fled for their lives. In the last election by the people, the president who the coup leaders drove out for his life was elected by a comfortable majority.

I'm not denying that the prior president was a murder and very corrupt. For example, for many years the Swedish assemble it your self furniture company IKEA wanted to open store outlets in Ukraine, but could not pay the required bribes. (Sweden investigates their books too closely the CEO has said - so they could not.) For decades, Ukraine has been known as the most corrupt major nation on earth - far worse than any of the BRICs, who other wise could in the past claim that title. Under the current government, it sees no reason to relinquish that title now either. It is still #144 from the least corrupts - Click on it it in map at: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
US is #19 and England less corrupt at #14. I was too lazy to find the least corrupt - some small nation I guessed after trying both Norway and Sweden.

 

[Arne Saknussemm]

Yes elected by the parliament, not the people, AFTER all the opposition members were forced out of fled for their lives. In the last election by the people, the president who the coup leaders drove out for his life was elected by a comfortable majority.

I'm not denying that the prior president was a murder and very corrupt. For example, for many years the Swedish assemble it your self furniture company IKEA wanted to open store outlets in Ukraine, but could not pay the required bribes. (Sweden investigates their books too closely the CEO has said - so they could not.) For decades, Ukraine has been know as the most corrupt nation on earth - far worse than any of the BRICs, who other wise could in the past claim that title.

And no doubt as the nation with the crappiest, out of style furniture.

 

[joepistole]

Yes elected by the parliament, not the people, AFTER all the opposition members were forced out of fled for their lives. In the last election by the people, the president who the coup leaders drove out for his life was elected by a comfortable majority.

I'm not denying that the prior president was a murder and very corrupt. For example, for many years the Swedish assemble it your self furniture company IKEA wanted to open store outlets in Ukraine, but could not pay the required bribes. (Sweden investigates their books too closely the CEO has said - so they could not.) For decades, Ukraine has been known as the most corrupt nation on earth - far worse than any of the BRICs, who other wise could in the past claim that title. Under the current government, it sees no reason to relinquish that title now either.

Apparently you missed the election. Porochenko was elected in a general election - not by parliment. No one but the former president was forced out.

 

[sculptor]

shades of K.A.L 007?
Was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 intentionally diverted to a place where 2 Ukrainian planes were recently shot down for the publicity?

Alexander Borodai, leader of the rebels in Donetsk, said Saturday he believed the flight was shot down but reiterated that his forces did not do it. He told reporters the rebels lacked the firepower to hit an airplane so high up.

 

[Billy T]

Apparently you missed the election. Porochenko was elected in a general election - not by parliment.

Yes a few weeks ago, when those who elected the prior president (East Ukrainians and Crimeans) could not vote.

No one but the former president was forced out.

FALSE - Thousands fled east for their lives - some like the president elected by ALL the Ukrainian people, not stopping until safe in Russia. Some who fled even testified before the Russian Duma - in public hearings as to how they were abused and feared for their lives. Widely shown in the Eastern block TV and briefly on CNN international that I get in Brazil.