More Ukrainian Events

[joepistole]

Let us all hope that the peace talks go well, and that Kiev will finally address their economic problems before a potentially cold winter settles in on them.

Ukraine's attempts to fix its corruption and economic woes is where this particular war began and that is a good thing for Ukrainians. Ukraine isn't the only player here with corruption and economic woes. At least Ukraine is attempting to solve its corruption and economic problems which is more than what Mother Russia is doing. Ukraine's corruption and economic woes pale in comparison to those of Mother Russia. Unlike Mother Russia, Ukraine has an independent press, a democratically elected government, and is not an international pariah under economic sanctions by the world's largest economic powers for egregious violations of international law.

Further, there is much more at stake here than just the Ukraine. What is at stake here is peace in Europe and the world for that matter. Putin's Russia is wihout exageration, a fascist state. Putin has exhibited a continuing pattern of aggression toward neighboring states. It began with Estonia, then Georgia and now Ukraine. Each act has become expotentially more aggressive and more invasive, invoking memories and images of Europe's last bout with fascism which resulted in the deaths of more than 60 million people. That is what is at stake here.

The stakes here are much bigger than Ukraine and they will not be solved or go away with a truce. History has taught us Putin's agression will not end with Ukraine.

 

[orcot]

Let us all hope that the peace talks go well, and that Kiev will finally address their economic problems before a potentially cold winter settles in on them.

are these even discussed? it's called peace talks for a reason the things being discused involve the semi civil war semi invasion occuring at the moment. and what to do from here

Adressing the financial problems is done by the Kiev goverment, the IMF and the EU. I don't know if Russia or the Donetsk region have any say in this (do you i'm interested?).

 

[orcot]

afther some searching the only Russians + brake away regions are to distabilize the economy being it the shelling of their own airport and mariupol to the increase in gas price and billion dollar damage claims. I did my best couldn't find a single thing (those russian humanitarian convoys are still suspicious) on the other hand I've heard that the PR donetsk economic plan is currently being written by a science fiction writer named Fedor Berezin that's depressing

 

[sculptor]

are these even discussed? it's called peace talks for a reason the things being discused involve the semi civil war semi invasion occuring at the moment. and what to do from here

Adressing the financial problems is done by the Kiev goverment, the IMF and the EU. I don't know if Russia or the Donetsk region have any say in this (do you i'm interested?).

Russia has been subsidizing Ukraine which, by some estimates, is $4.8 billion in debt to Russia.
Now would be a good time for the EU to come forward and help Ukraine balance it's finances.

The IMF track record for loaning money to corrupt governments and the consequences of that frivolity ain't something they should be proud of.

 

[joepistole]

Russia has been subsidizing Ukraine which, by some estimates, is $4.8 billion in debt to Russia.

Think about that for a moment instead of mindlessly repeating nonsense. So are banks subsidizing debtors? Are utilities subsidizing their customers by giving them trade credit? Is your mortgage lender subsidizing you or is your credit card company subsidizing you when they loan you money? In the real world debt is not a subsidy.

Now would be a good time for the EU to come forward and help Ukraine balance it's finances.

They have done so.But it isn't easy when your country is under an armed invasion.

The IMF track record for loaning money to corrupt governments and the consequences of that frivolity ain't something they should be proud of.

You mean like Russia? The IMF has loaned Russia many billions of dollars since the collapse of The Soviet Union. Like other lenders the IMF cannot guarantee sucessful outcomes. It's magical thinking to think otherwise.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/world/russia-and-imf-agree-on-a-loan-for-10.2-billion.html

 

[orcot]

Russia has been subsidizing Ukraine which, by some estimates, is $4.8 billion in debt to Russia.

this is the Ukraine gas debt right? Currently they pay 485$ a tcm Germany for examples pays 379 Macedonia pays 564 (but imports relativly little). I'm sure they used to pay less but again this is abouth who helps the most afther this conflict and gas prices rose 80% during the conflict (meaning they aren't helping).

The IMF track record for loaning money to corrupt governments and the consequences of that frivolity ain't something they should be proud of

No country is forced to accept the helping hand of the IMF and you sure are right to say it's a double edged sword. That being said few have ever refused the IMF when they needed it. Nor can you say it has as blatantly misused it's power like setting the countries foreign policy, forcing military bases or dictating the press but the conversation woulod take us to far if we compared it to countries who did misuse their powers in this way.
for more info on the IMF and Ukraine select Ukraine in this country link
(so whilst theirs downsides on the IMF Ukraine needs that money and the IMF will figure a way out how Ukraine can repay it's debt meaning theirs at least a goal(plan) to economic prosperoty for Ukraine)

 

[p-brane]

I've heard that the PR donetsk economic plan is currently being written by a science fiction writer

He's writing it for a utopian distant future.

 

[orcot]

Fyodor Berezin a odd fella
his books

"Above all Ukraine cloudless sky ..." And in the sky with impunity hosts NATO air. And the world "liberal" press open his mouth about the invasion. And no orders to deploy air defense systems. But there are duty officers and military equipment of Soviet manufacture. And there is Russia, which is sure to come to the aid of ... World War III on the threshold of "World in Flames will begin in the Ukraine. The armed conflict in the Crimea, threatens to spread throughout Europe. And Russia did not stay away from the critical events. The main front of the future War will Ukrainian Front!

The man wrote a novel abouth NATO invading and occupying Crimea with Russia comming to the rescue (it was written in 2009)

his other novel

"War in 2030 ... crazy, incredible battle for the last oil reserves. Battle on the verge of possibility. The world in which Russian take their revenge for their defeat in the XX century ... Roman Fedorov Berezin capture from the first page. They have the drive, naked nerve, intense action. Berezin Fantasia possesses "nuclear" power and at the same time very real. At its background the famous Tom Clancy looks boring, bland and uninteresting. Berezin - a singer of Russian Revival, lightning, the storm and onslaught. And who knows? not whether we are confronted with the brilliant foresight, the penetration in the future of the world?

 

[p-brane]

Fyodor Berezin...wrote a novel abouth NATO invading and occupying Crimea with Russia comming to the rescue

Make that a distopian distant future.

 

[Billy T]

Interesting very current video: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5d6_1410220730&comments=1 Ukrainian tanks destoryed, Cease fire is over - Maripole about to fall.
When this video ends with"continue" there are 12 more to view

 

[orcot]

slow down there the ceasefire is still holding (for now)

 

[youreyes]

slow down there the ceasefire is still holding (for now)

both sides need it to gather more forces.

 

[orcot]

It probably won't hold military support from Russia is to strong and the rebels do not hold enoug assets even if they get more rights they will be marginalist because of the money flow and anti corrption scandals that are sure to pop up in the east.

That said we can only hope it holds

It can be said their biggest asset is the threat to cause more economic damage and distabilization but then theirs only so much you can do to fool your people... then again these people do blame their goverment as the agresor and for all the pain and suffering so it's hard to determine what exactly you can fool them. meanwhile the russian are holding their former president captive (if that is the word they certainly have him and he's not allowed to talk with anyone and is excluded from any political talks)

 

[joepistole]

both sides need it to gather more forces.

With the introduction of Russian regulars into the fight, Ukraine needs time to build and train and equip an army. Russia already has a fully trained and equipped army. Mother Russia is using the truce to avoid and minimize further sanctions from Western countries.

So yeah, both sides want a truce for the moment, but for different reasons.

 

[joepistole]

Putin/Russia is clearly worried about further economic sanctions. Since injecting Russian regulars in mass into the fray, Putin has been rattling sabers including the nuclear saber. Most recently he threatened to cut off Russian air space which really is not a big deal. It, like Putin's previous "retaliations, will hurt Mother Russia more than the West.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ons-close-airspace-western-airlines/15278435/

 

[orcot]

abouth 600 POW have been returned to, Ukraine claims 1500 of her troops have been killed (the rebels claim to have killed 7400) both are probably lying but regardles 600 is a big number.

"retaliations, will hurt Mother Russia more than the West.

especialy when Europe does the same and all his expensive food will have to pay taxes then again considering it's stores aren't empty it probably means in a whole his people are ignoring his policies I've heard the Belarussias see food was exceptionally well this year (even tough they aren't near the sea) on a unrelated note Norways sea food has misterialsly increased? even tough Russia was their biggest market I'm sure it's unrelated.

Ukraine should take the time to win over hearts in the east, show some goodwill come up with it's own peace plan that constitute the rights of the east. Collect evidence. build up a police force in the east. Send in help talk to the people and secure hospitals, powerplants, etc. Wouldn't be so bad either to plant explosives near mayor cities water supplies (every city falls in less then a week when completly cut of).
I'm not exactly sure what the east wants the ability to speak russian? ладно the ability to self govern? Sure unless you need state support (translation never), Peace? If your side keeps to the rules sure. Help? On it's way

 

[joepistole]

abouth 600 POW have been returned to, Ukraine claims 1500 of her troops have been killed (the rebels claim to have killed 7400) both are probably lying but regardles 600 is a big number.

especialy when Europe does the same and all his expensive food will have to pay taxes then again considering it's stores aren't empty it probably means in a whole his people are ignoring his policies I've heard the Belarussias see food was exceptionally well this year (even tough they aren't near the sea) on a unrelated note Norways sea food has misterialsly increased? even tough Russia was their biggest market I'm sure it's unrelated.

Ukraine should take the time to win over hearts in the east, show some goodwill come up with it's own peace plan that constitute the rights of the east. Collect evidence. build up a police force in the east. Send in help talk to the people and secure hospitals, powerplants, etc. Wouldn't be so bad either to plant explosives near mayor cities water supplies (every city falls in less then a week when completly cut of).
I'm not exactly sure what the east wants the ability to speak russian? ладно the ability to self govern? Sure unless you need state support (translation never), Peace? If your side keeps to the rules sure. Help? On it's way

Ukraine needs to learn how to fight an asymmetrical war. Russia has more men and equipment. The political problem Ukraine faces in the East isn't with the so called "rebels", it is with Putin. Putin created them. Putin organized them. Putin trained them, supplied them and controls them and continues to support them with men and supplies.

 

[orcot]

Ukraine needs to learn how to fight an asymmetrical war. Russia has more men and equipment. The political problem Ukraine faces in the East isn't with the so called "rebels", it is with Putin

Bring in people from the baltic, balcan, Georgia and moldavia. If they can't win they can be transparant and if they have a economic plan for the future they might win some people over they might rather burn ukrainian coal then russian gas to stay warm this creates jobs in Ukraine and less dependencies on Russia. It's not ideal and dirty but it will keep a lot of people employed and secure in the future. (A reasonable price). They could also ask what the east (ukrainian) plans are my toughts are that they are not existing heavily depended on Russia or flawed in a other way then they could compare it with similar regions like transnistra. Meanwhile having acces to the european markets and (regretably) having almost the lowest average wages in Europe could allow for some export

 

[CptBork]

Putin/Russia is clearly worried about further economic sanctions. Since injecting Russian regulars in mass into the fray, Putin has been rattling sabers including the nuclear saber. Most recently he threatened to cut off Russian air space which really is not a big deal. It, like Putin's previous "retaliations, will hurt Mother Russia more than the West.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ons-close-airspace-western-airlines/15278435/

Why should Putin be worried about sanctions? Maybe Chancellor Merkel thinks that if she glares at him hard enough, she can turn him to stone just like Medusa. You guys are talking about helping Ukraine spend 10 years living like tunnel rats trying to annoy the Russians enough until they simply give up and leave. I say there's a much easier solution, and if Germany refuses to cooperate because they're afraid the price of borsht might skyrocket, then perhaps they ought to be cut off too until they figure it out.

It's not just about Putin, or Russia. There's another greedy little goblin in the East who's watching this whole catastrophe very closely while looking to make a power play of its own, let's not leave them thinking they'll be rewarded with increased sales of crappy shoes and poisoned baby milk if they try it.

 

[Billy T]