More Ukrainian Events

[cornel]

Your notion/opinion is just plain silly and ignorant.

No, Ukraïne has been having serious trouble for six months now, for the people who only watch mainstream media roughly three months(and venezuela is still a paradise to them)
Everyone can see the country needs change, and i gave my opinion on how to.

And your notion that ukraïne only gets to be a federation if Russia is one as well ..... i mean seriously, is this some kind of attempt to pretend that Ukraïne has to be Russia's bitch forever ?

 

[cornel]

Sorry to interrupt.
So is it correct to assume that Russia is simply "reclaiming" back their lands? (as if it were theirs but you get my point)

The commies have been, umm, redistributing the (Russian and non-Russian) population in order to attack nationalism, so the former USSR is a mess.
Cremea was claimed so the Russians have a ice-free Dead Sea-harbor(Ukraïne was moving into a pro-west direction at the time, i believe Putin and NATO have agreed that Ukraïne won't join NATO)

 

[cosmictraveler]

Why not just let those people who are wanting Russia to take control move back into Russia. That way they can get what they want and no one gets hurt. If they refuse to leave the Ukraine just force them over to Russia so that they can live the way they want to.

 

[joepistole]

Why not just let those people who are wanting Russia to take control move back into Russia. That way they can get what they want and no one gets hurt. If they refuse to leave the Ukraine just force them over to Russia so that they can live the way they want to.

Who is stopping Russians from moving back to Russia? No one, Russians living in the Ukraine don’t want to move to mother Russia. They want Ukrainian land. This is a land grab pure and simple and in the process it is inciting the flames of Russian nationalism - the same kind of nationalism which caused not one but two world wars. The Ukrainian people have a right to govern themselves. If the Ukrainian majority forced ethic Russians back into Russia, it would give Putin the excuse he has been seeking. That excuse, that the Ukrainians are abusing ethnic Russians, has been total fiction.

 

[joepistole]

No, Ukraïne has been having serious trouble for six months now, for the people who only watch mainstream media roughly three months(and venezuela is still a paradise to them)
Everyone can see the country needs change, and i gave my opinion on how to.

LOL, no, what you are doing is changing the subject. You asserted that the Ukraine was too large to govern effectively. And that simply isn’t true. I gave you examples of 40 other countries which are several fold larger in size and population and are governed better than the Ukraine. And those countries included, The United States, Canada, China and Russia.

And actually, Ukraine’s problems didn’t begin six months ago. Apparently, you are listening to too much Russian propaganda. Ukraine’s problems began many decades ago. Russia’s problems, Putin’s problem, with the Ukraine began six months ago when the country began to resist Russian domination and took steps to open trade with the European Union and resulted in the ouster of Putin’s vassal. But the Ukraine’s problems began many decades earlier when it became part of the Soviet Union.

Yes, everyone can see Ukraine needs change. It has a government that can barely govern. It's government is riddled with corruption. It has an economy on the brink. But as I said before, none of that is new. Those problems have existed for decades. During the 90’s Ukraine’s economy shrunk at an average rate of 23% each and every year. That is why the Ukrainian people want change. That is why the Ukrainian people want to move away from Russia. The Ukrainian people are no longer happy being Putin’s bitch.

And your notion that ukraïne only gets to be a federation if Russia is one as well ..... i mean seriously, is this some kind of attempt to pretend that Ukraïne has to be Russia's bitch forever ?

I don’t know where you got that turd. That isn’t my notion. My notion is the Ukrainians have the right of self-determination. That is my notion. The Ukrainian’s have the right to determine what kind of government they want and determine what kind of government works for them. It isn’t for Russia (i.e. Putin) to annex their lands as it has done. And it isn’t for Russia (i.e. Putin) or the West to determine what kind of government works for them. Ukrainians are not children. They can think for themselves. They don't need or want Putin telling them what they must do or what they must think while he screws their pooch.

 

[Dazz]

You know. One question is bothering me really bad: What the Ukraine has that the Russia wants so bad?
As Russian expansionism is a real thing. They find themselves over and over in an attempt older than gigs to go a little more to the left. Why?
Is Russia somewhat butthurt for all the curbing that it has suffered from Western oppressors or something?
If they were as good as they think they are, some people wouldn't be pleading for help to halt the comrades' advance and rebuild their own country.

 

[joepistole]

You know. One question is bothering me really bad: What the Ukraine has that the Russia wants so bad?
As Russian expansionism is a real thing. They find themselves over and over in an attempt older than gigs to go a little more to the left. Why?
Is Russia somewhat butthurt for all the curbing that it has suffered from Western oppressors or something?
If they were as good as they think they are, some people wouldn't be pleading for help to halt the comrades' advance and rebuild their own country.

All good points. If Russia was a great as they think they are, they wouldn't need to put up fences to keep people in and they wouldn't need to invade, occupy and forcibly annex their neighbors. Whatever the outcome in the Ukraine, Putin has revealed himself to be an unstable and unreliable trading partner. That is going to hurt an already distressed economy.

 

[cornel]

LOL, no, what you are doing is changing the subject.

...

Thread: More Ukrainian Events

Let me be honest to you, you seem like a troll.
You attack my initial argument, which was pretty weak, and pitbull it.
When i explain there is a bigger situation going on, i am "changing the subject" according to you.
You throw around with facts, but none support your alternative, because you haven't provided any.
All you do is talk about self-determinism, and guess what,

imo

i never argued to force anything on them, i stated my opinion, and if Ukraïners would ask me for advice, i would still recommend them a federation.
And even worse, right now Ukraïne's future is being determined by NATO & Russia, how is that for self-determinism ?
Any system is better then what they currently have, and a federation provides internal peace so the country can make a fist against Russia or even NATO/EU if need be.(and thus take the right on self-determinism)

Now, if you don't agree, that is okay, but, if you wish to counter-argument, please provide an alternative system, because i 'm tired of having to defend a remark i made against ... nothing.

 

[joepistole]

...
Let me be honest to you, you seem like a troll.

Oh name calling, last time I checked logical fact based conversation isn’t trolling.

You attack my initial argument, which was pretty weak, and pitbull it.

You made a very stupid assertion that the Ukraine was too big to govern.

When i explain there is a bigger situation going on, i am "changing the subject" according to you.

No, you changed the subject from too big to govern to the Ukraine has problems. What country doesn’t have problems? And Ukraine’s troubles, as I previously noted, didn’t begin six months ago as you asserted.

You throw around with facts, but none support your alternative, because you haven't provided any.

And you have a problem with facts? And what don’t you get about my previous post in which I said, the Ukrainians have the right of self-determination. The Ukrainians need to work out their troubles. They need to decide what government they want – not Russia or the West. And they don’t need Russian guns pointed at them and they don’t need Russian provocateurs undermining their government.

All you do is talk about self-determinism, and guess what, i never argued to force anything on them, i stated my opinion, and if Ukraïners would ask me for advice, i would still recommend them a federation.

Well if that is all you have picked up from this conversation, you are a little dense. There is nothing magical about a federation. If the Ukraine doesn’t have a federation, neither does Russia. What is it about a federation that makes it better? Just because Putin is pushing a federation onto the Ukraine, it doesn’t mean it is a better form of government. It just gives Putin more power and influence in the Ukraine. That is why Putin is pushing for a weak federalized form of government in the Ukraine – something he would not tolerate in Russia.

And even worse, right now Ukraïne's future is being determined by NATO & Russia, how is that for self-determinism ?

Actually no, NATO is not a nation and it isn’t interfering with the Ukrainian government as is your Russian friends. NATO, nor has any Western power interfered with the Ukrainian government. The West has not invaded the Ukraine. It has not annexed any portion of the Ukraine. It doesn’t have tens of thousands of troops on its borders and inside its territorial boundaries. The West supports the right of Ukrainians to determine their own fate and their own government. So the bottom line here yet again is you notions are not consistent with known facts.

Any system is better then what they currently have, and a federation provides internal peace so the country can make a fist against Russia or even NATO/EU if need be.(and thus take the right on self-determinism)

Where is your evidence to support your notion that a federation provides “internal peace”? Can you even make a cogent argument why it would? Do you have any examples? No you are just mindlessly pulling this stuff out of some orifice or just blindly repeating Putin’s excuses.

And your notion that any system would be better is hogwash too. There are plenty of governments that are/were worse – much worse (e.g., Fascism, Stalinism, etc.).

Now, if you don't agree, that is okay, but, if you wish to counter-argument, please provide an alternative system, because i 'm tired of having to defend a remark i made against ... nothing.

As I have told you before, it isn’t about you or me or what you or I want. It is about what the Ukrainians want. They have plenty of examples to choose from. As I told you before, the Ukrainians are not children. They can think for themselves.

 

[Dazz]

Being honest. I'd say that Western Powers are much more concerned about exactly curbing Russian power rather than helping Ukraine whatsoever IMO.
It is just too costful and effortful to help every single country on the east part of europe (may as well include the former countries of the Iron Curtain) to become somewhat powerful and/or independent enough to "withstand" the Russian oppression or at least pose anything close to struggle (as it would be difficult to say the least), it would be cheaper to cause a small skirmish/war of attrition that is, wearing down Russia in the most sanctionable and political way.
That is what i see at least.

 

[joepistole]

Being honest. I'd say that Western Powers are much more concerned about exactly curbing Russian power rather than helping Ukraine whatsoever IMO.
It is just too costful and effortful to help every single country on the east part of europe (may as well include the former countries of the Iron Curtain) to become somewhat powerful and/or independent enough to "withstand" the Russian oppression or at least pose anything close to struggle (as it would be difficult to say the least), it would be cheaper to cause a small skirmish/war of attrition that is, wearing down Russia in the most sanctionable and political way.
That is what i see at least.

The Western powers have only one interest and that is peaceful commerce. A prosperous democratic Russia is good for business. The West wants a reliable and trustworthy trading partner in Russia. Putin has proven he is not that. If you cannot trust Putin, you cannot trade with him. From the perspective of the West, the Ukraine is insignificant. What is significant is when a trading partner with nukes wantonly violates international law. It makes Western nations nervous when a nuclear power begins acting like Hitler - doing the same things Hitler did.

 

[Dazz]

Yup.
And it doesn't help when a nuclear-powered batshit insane federation "allies" itself (althought passively) to another country just as batshit insane, which happens to have a nuke-gassed, massive war machine.

 

[orcot]

the price that Russia pays keeps getting higher http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/09/russia-china-gas-idUSL6N0N11XM20140409


If Russia hurries into a chineese contract it could loose significant profits as the chinese get to set their prices they could loose up to 10-15%. Likewise if Russia removed the 10 billion$ debt from North Korea to get inmediate acces to south Korea then that 10 billion is also lost because of Ukraine

 

[Asguard]

The Western powers have only one interest and that is peaceful commerce. A prosperous democratic Russia is good for business. The West wants a reliable and trustworthy trading partner in Russia. Putin has proven he is not that. If you cannot trust Putin, you cannot trade with him. From the perspective of the West, the Ukraine is insignificant. What is significant is when a trading partner with nukes wantonly violates international law. It makes Western nations nervous when a nuclear power begins acting like Hitler - doing the same things Hitler did.

Yea like invading 1 country and then another at the same time and threatening a third while supporting a fascist state who is oppressing another people.

Oh sorry that was the US not Russia, invading Afghanistan and then Iraq, threatening Iran and supporting the fascists in Israel who are committing horrendous war crimes and crimes against humanity

 

[orcot]

Yea like invading 1 country and then another at the same time and threatening a third while supporting a fascist state who is oppressing another people.

Oh sorry that was the US not Russia, invading Afghanistan and then Iraq, threatening Iran and supporting the fascists in Israel who are committing horrendous war crimes and crimes against humanity

Well he took Crimea and most definatly threatened any country where Russian speakers live in (particulairy the baltic) with military actions he threatend even more like finland if you consider they're not part of nato because of economic threats from Russia he also threathend one of his "Friends" Belarus trough Lukashenko... Basicly he threatens anybody around him.

If you want a third country theirs Moldavia he sorts of want a piece of and NOVA Russia in the Ukraine (that's like mexico claiming new mexico because it's named that way).

The biggest difference is offcourse that america Always planned to leave in the end I do believe Putin is fixed on staying

 

[joepistole]

Yea like invading 1 country and then another at the same time and threatening a third while supporting a fascist state who is oppressing another people.

Oh sorry that was the US not Russia, invading Afghanistan and then Iraq, threatening Iran and supporting the fascists in Israel who are committing horrendous war crimes and crimes against humanity

Doing drugs dude?

 

[Dazz]

The Western powers have only one interest and that is peaceful commerce. A prosperous democratic Russia is good for business. The West wants a reliable and trustworthy trading partner in Russia. Putin has proven he is not that. If you cannot trust Putin, you cannot trade with him. From the perspective of the West, the Ukraine is insignificant.

And that is really bad.
Althought the Gazprom sends its massive amount of gas throught the pipelines that pass thru' Ukraine.
They better review their POV over Ukraine really quick-like.

It all makes sense all of a sudden...

And you know what? They don't give a shit! Their deal with another fellow crayzies has "broadly coinciding points of view" so why worry, right?

I think that is the part where we should worry the most. Specially since their single state/private company (of Russia that is) produces roughly 17% of the natural gas on the world and they hold Europe as customers.

They do whatever they want for kicks and giggles.

If we put the pieces together, what do we have? I'm quite lost, yes.

 

[Asguard]

Doing drugs dude?

Did Iraq VOTE to be invaded by US troops? nope it didn't but Crimea had a referendum where they VOTED to rejoin Russia. Which country is anti democratic again?

 

[orcot]

Truth is, Putin is a bad politician.
Whilst it is true that if he sees an opportunity he pounces. It did turn the world against him link
No significant partners support Putin at best they condone his behaviour.
It's a silly argument but remember this is a guy perhaps with the exception of Belarus can't bind a single country to his cause with the amount of russians living in Ukraine how come they do not prefer him over a debt plagued Union.

He likes to see Russia as a SUPERPOWER!!! (as it's probably pronounced) but he forgets that he's not what he should (or could) have done was to join the Eastern Partnership taking the place of Turkey as least likely country ever to join the EU. True he would at best be the 4 largest economy in the EU far from a superpower but he would be connected to the largest economy in the world (that is the EU) and would be the main energy deliverer of 5 of the top 10 economies in the world that is it's main income and eventually what counts.

Now he's knocking at China's doorstep in recession finally having made a breacktrough afther 10 years of negotiation abouth the price of gas (basicly he will take whatever China's willing to pay to Ensure it's future).

I can't help but think of a imaginairy future where a force as Russia can have a influence on it's neigbours without threatening them a Russia that can negotiate his prices with the largest economy in the world at his back and if this would not be a truer definition of a superpower even if he has to tolerate Brussels laws.

 

[Dazz]

He is a megalomaniac, that is for sure.

The thing is, his allegiance to China is worrysome nevertheless. They are both nuclear-powered war machines, that have no problem in shitstorming.
Wheter it is a run for help or a serious bizniss stuff (with more intentions than it seems), it implies much more than simply another passive ally.
One, they hold somewhat of a grudge against the West. It is not hard to figure this out.
Two, China needs energy, Russia has energy. Europe needs energy, which one is not on the West? Which one was a fellow commie? China? Yes?
Three, you have a product that, as far as you know, only one person needs, and you sell that product not entirely as you like, say, cold cold money, but more as of a trade, where you give your product in exchange for other products and opportunities to have other people to exchange with you,and some cold cold money of course. Then, you find out that two people need equally your product, one will impose sanctions if you be naughty and the other couldn't care less, so, if both need equally the same product, and you divert your production from the first customer to the second, and then you kinda have the ability to say "K, if you want mah product i put the price AND the terms, good?" which, strenghtens your monopolist ability and trade arguments. If you can pay for my product, good, if you can't i have another customer that is going to pay me.
You know, that is just my humble opinion and that's what me, as an outsider can see.