More Israeli Land theft

[otheadp]

And then some of them were run over with tanks, some shot, some incarcerated and tortured, and the rest put into fenced off reservations to keep them from being violent.

'run over with tanks' = only 1: Rachel Corrie

'shot and incarcerated' = for terrorism. nothing to do with expropriation of land.

'tortured' = Israel does not torture. and whatever interrogation they did face was also for terrorism. nothing to do with expropriation of land.

even the term 'expropriation' is not accurate, as it implies previous ownership. what sometimes happens today is that Arabs (not just East Jerusalemites) in Israel build buildings with out the legal right (e.g. obtaining building permits) and then they're surprised when the state tells them they can't do that.

 

[S.A.M.]

'run over with tanks' = only 1: Rachel Corrie

'shot and incarcerated' = for terrorism. nothing to do with expropriation of land.

'tortured' = Israel does not torture. and whatever interrogation they did face was also for terrorism. nothing to do with expropriation of land.

even the term 'expropriation' is not accurate, as it implies previous ownership. what sometimes happens today is that Arabs (not just East Jerusalemites) in Israel build buildings with out the legal right (e.g. obtaining building permits) and then they're surprised when the state tells them they can't do that.

Is the statement "Israel does not torture" borrowed from the Americans?

Because this sure sounds like torture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

An official Israeli report has acknowledged for the first time that the Israeli security service tortured detainees during the Palestinian uprising, the Intifada, between 1988 and 1992.

The report, written five years ago but kept secret until now, said the leadership of the security service Shin Bet knew about the torture but did nothing to stop it.

The report did not detail the torture methods used, but human rights organisations say some detainees died or were left paralysed.

And didn't the Mossad train the Savak?

And what is this secret prison for?

Inside Israel's secret prison
By Aviv Lavie
Detainees are blindfolded and kept in blackened cells, never told where they are, brutally interrogated and allowed no visitors of any kind. Dubbed 'the Israeli Guantanamo,' it's no wonder facility 1391 officially does not exist.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

 

[otheadp]

Detainees are blindfolded and kept in blackened cells, never told where they are, brutally interrogated and allowed no visitors of any kind. Dubbed 'the Israeli Guantanamo,' it's no wonder facility 1391 officially does not exist.

only the bolded part in the quote above implies anything brutal. and it's perfectly vague. we have leftist moonbats too. they too cry 'torture' at every turn.

 

[S.A.M.]

only the bolded part in the quote above implies anything brutal. and it's perfectly vague. we have leftist moonbats too. they too cry 'torture' at every turn.

Sure they do.

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Lets wait on the secret report or a whistleblower.

http://imeu.net/news/article004987.shtml

Under Israeli military orders in force inside the occupied West Bank and Gaza, any Palestinian over the age of 16 is considered an adult, while inside Israel the age of an adult is 18 — even though Israel is a signatory to the International Convention of the Rights of the Child, which defines all children as under 18 years old.

Moreover, Palestinian children over 14 years old are tried as adults in an Israeli military court, and are often put into prisons with adults. These are also direct violations of international law.

According to the latest figures offered by an independent group, there are 398 Palestinian children currently inside Israeli detention centres and prisons. Ayed Abuqtaish, research cocoordinator with Defence for Children International’s Ramallah offices, told IPS that the youngest child being held in prison is just 14 years old.

“Usually, the Israeli troops invade the child’s house in the middle of the night, in order to frighten the child and his family,” Abuqtaish told IPS. “Many Israeli soldiers and vehicles surround the house, and other soldiers invade or force their way into the house.

“They intimidate the child to prepare him for interrogation. When the child arrives at the interrogation centre, they employ different methods of torture.”

There are widespread reports of physical beatings, Abuqtaish says, “but currently, they concentrate mainly on psychological torture like sleep deprivation, or depriving him of food or water, or putting him in solitary confinement, or threatening him with the demolition of his home or the arrest of other family members. Children have also reported that the Israeli interrogators have threatened to sexually abuse them.”

 

[otheadp]

this coming from someone who refuses to condemn beheadings
take your meds, spam.

 

[S.A.M.]

this coming from someone who refuses to condemn beheadings
take your meds, spam.

I think condemning a poem is BS.

You go ahead and condemn poems if you like.

But sodomising youngsters and paralysing people, I take seriously.

Also breaking wrists and ankles of four year olds and stamping on their bellies.

 

[iceaura]

'run over with tanks' = only 1: Rachel Corrie

'shot and incarcerated' = for terrorism. nothing to do with expropriation of land.

'tortured' = Israel does not torture.

Wasn't Corrie run over with a bulldozer ? I was referring to the people who have been run over by tanks in those narrow little streets - including an old guy in a wheelchair, couple of years ago, as I recall the news article.

Israel has shot and incarcerated dozens of people for reason other than terrorism, including attempting to remain in houses and areas from which Israel wished to evict them. The occupation of the Occupied Territories has been quite brutal, at times.

Israel tortures, of course. Some of the contract interrogators at Abu Ghraib seem to have been Israeli, advising on the beatings and rapes and stress holdings and humilitation methods. And there was a lot of cross-trading of methods, etc, between Israel and South Africa (and the US, naturally), not long ago.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Wasn't Corrie run over with a bulldozer ? I was referring to the people who have been run over by tanks in those narrow little streets - including an old guy in a wheelchair, couple of years ago, as I recall the news article.

Israel has shot and incarcerated dozens of people for reason other than terrorism, including attempting to remain in houses and areas from which Israel wished to evict them. The occupation of the Occupied Territories has been quite brutal, at times.

Israel tortures, of course. Some of the contract interrogators at Abu Ghraib seem to have been Israeli, advising on the beatings and rapes and stress holdings and humilitation methods. And there was a lot of cross-trading of methods, etc, between Israel and South Africa (and the US, naturally), not long ago.

How about some provable citation?

 

[iceaura]

even the term 'expropriation' is not accurate, as it implies previous ownership. what sometimes happens today is that Arabs (not just East Jerusalemites) in Israel build buildings with out the legal right (e.g. obtaining building permits) and then they're surprised when the state tells them they can't do that.

Israel has made it very difficult for some people to get titles and permits for housing - even farms that go back a hundred years in a family.

Then this lack of title is used as an excuse for expropriation. The new owners (often immigrants) receive title easily and quickly.

Hernando de Soto has written about the enormous effect of ineffective government in the failure to set up efficient property title agency. He thinks this single problem is responsible for much of the poverty and development difficulties in the third, and even second, world. The Middle East is seriously afflicted.

The deliberate use of this situation by Israel (inherited, not remedied) to rob Palestinians and other Muslims in Israel is a new wrinkle not mentioned by de Soto.

IIRC in Cairo something like 90% of the people who "own" a house have no clear, formal title, for example.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Israel has made it very difficult for some people to get titles and permits for housing - even farms that go back a hundred years in a family.

Then this lack of title is used as an excuse for expropriation. The new owners (often immigrants) receive title easily and quickly.

Hernando de Soto has written about the enormous effect of ineffective government in the failure to set up efficient property title agency. He thinks this single problem is responsible for much of the poverty and development difficulties in the third, and even second, world. The Middle East is seriously afflicted.

The deliberate use of this situation by Israel (inherited, not remedied) to rob Palestinians and other Muslims in Israel is a new wrinkle not mentioned by de Soto.

IIRC in Cairo something like 90% of the people who "own" a house have no clear, formal title, for example.

If you don't have original title in the first place, it isn't your land to begin with no matter how long you have squatted on it, and the governments in the middle east go back for thousands of years and land grants, patents, Titles and Deeds, are well established in all the legal systems, the reason that most didn't want a Title or Deed was that then they would have to pay taxes to the Crown, or Lord, or what ever ruling system was in place, and the fact is that many of the farmers were Tenant Farmers working the land for someone else.

Or, as explained in;

Indeed, the peasants had strong incentives to not register or to under-register their land. One incentive was the tradition of mistrust of or opposition to government — what Granott calls the "indolence which characterizes the peasants' attitude towards official regulations" — and the desire to avoid granting unnecessary legitimization to the government.19  A second incentive was evasion of current and potential taxes on registered property.20  A third incentive to avoid registration was evasion of registration fees21 or penalties and fines for late registration.22  A fourth incentive was evasion of military conscription based on or traced through land holdings.23

Arab Lies, Gullible Jews, Passionate Anti-Semites - FREEMAN CENTER ...
The Ottoman Empire controlled the land in Palestine for 400 years. ... The Arab tenant-farmers or squatters never owned the land they now claim as their ...
http://www.freeman.org/serendipity/...,-Gullible-Jews,-Passionate-Anti-Semites.html

 

[S.A.M.]

And of course, everyone MUST follow the Western system.

 

[iceaura]

and the governments in the middle east go back for thousands of years and land grants, patents, Titles and Deeds, are well established in all the legal systems

According to de Soto, it can take more than 20 years to obtain legal title to a house in Cairo.

And that is more typical than not. We find this same basic situation in Peru, in Cambodia, in Zaire, all over.

The Ottoman Empire controlled the land in Palestine for 400 years. ... The Arab tenant-farmers or squatters never owned the land they now claim as their ...

And yet the new immigrant settlers have no problem obtaining clear title from a cooperative Israeli government.

How did they do that, if the title hasn't belonged to anyone involved with the land since the Ottoman Empire ? Did they trace the descendents of the Ottoman landlords and pay them for the land ?

And of course, everyone MUST follow the Western system.

Or some other workable one. The penalites for not establishing a workable means of obtaining legal title to property in a society are huge, in a society that has private property at all.

 

[Challenger78]

I'm as uncomfortable as anybody with a government that makes their top priority the attacking of civilians on the other side of their border. Even the Israelis make an attempt to target shooters, they don't just lob bombs over the fence completely indiscriminately.

Who needs that when you've got them in the biggest fence possible ? Plus the right to indiscriminately take their land.

I understand why the USA supported Israel during the Cold War. The entire Middle East was a chessboard and the people who live there were just pawns. (Obviously I didn't like it, but at least I understood.) I don't understand why we have to continue this support now that the Cold War is over. It can't possibly be doing us any good. It's one of the many reasons radical Islamists have for hating us, and I don't see any strategic value to it. Even if the Bush Dynasty's current Gulf War were legitimately necessary for our security, Israel would hardly spring to our aid militarily. Every Muslim country in the world including Indonesia, Albania and Uganda would send troops.

I agree, there is no reason for the USA to support Israel. It would certainly reduce the no. of people hating America. I saw a report on Al jazeera that showed a palestinian shouting "we are a thousand O.B.Ls, We will become a thousand OBLs" . And this was in response to an Israeli takeover of their land. Imagine their response when they find a grenade marked "made in Saltsburg, Pennsylvania"