More Great Economic News
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Who do you think Mad Anthony Wayne was fighting against?
At that point, the British had not yet given up hopes of reclaiming their lost colonies. They supplied the Indians with guns, powder and shot in exchange for furs. With British help, the Indians were causing all kinds of trouble.
If the US government could not demonstrate that they were in control of the Northwest territories, other world powers would have soon moved in.
President Washington dispatched a series of generals to the Ohio River Valley area to punish the Indians for raids on river traffic and harassment of settlers. They were all soundly defeated by the Indians under the leadership of Chief Little Turtle.
This series of defeats was a great humiliation to the new republic. President Washington named General Wayne Commanding General of the Legion of the United States.
He spent about two years training his soldiers before heading into the Northwest territory. During this time, the US was in negotiations with the Indians, but they refused to yield. So on September 11, 1793 Wayne recieved the order to attack.
Wayne built Fort Recovery and defeated a vastly superior force of Indians under the leadership of Chief Little Turtle. He went on to break the back of the Indians at Fallen Timbers which led to the Indians Treaty of Greenville on Aug. 3, 1795.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/greenvil.htm
Basically, the Indians agreed to clear out of the Northwest territory.
The British turned out to be pretty lousy allies to the Indians. When Mad Anthony defeated the Indians at Fallen Timbers, they retreated to Fort Miami as the British had promised to protect them. But once they got there, the British wouldn't let them in because they were afraid of war with the US.
Well,most of the continent was still theirs at that point. So they went somewhere else.
PS Maybe this is why we rarely agree. How could you expect MadAnthonyWayne and an Indian to get along?
No surprises there
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I thought the US took over all North America? Did you miss a few spots?
Perhaps. No doubt, if you were a native American, you would agree with me.
PS. Lets leave this thread to Billy and sandy
I was speaking of the time period right after the battle of fallen timbers, the 1790's. Ultimately, yes, we achieved our manifest destiny of one nation from sea to shining sea.
LOL
"Ultimately" never occurs. I.e. it is still somewhere in the future. Thus US's "manifest destiny" is subject to change and best understood for practical purposes as what is likely to be the conditions several generations from now.
What do you think those conditions in the will be?
I will give my expectations for period when recovery from the Great Depression, GD, is complete:
Living standards will be approximately what they are today, but people will once again seldom, if ever, travel more than 100 miles from where they were born. Traveling farther is a waste of time, expensive, inconvenient, generally useless when they can VT (virtual travel) the world instead via the fiber optical trunk lines and the local terminal RF links. Most will live on the "entitlement" and many will practice a skilled craft (everything from painting, silver smith, wood carving, etc. hobbies with products often given as gifts or sold on eBay etc.) and many will be into some spiritual cult for meaning in their lives.*
The US's main economic trade activity will be food, fiber and coal production for Asia (including India / Vietnam region). The "Waynelands" region of US will be the bread basket of the Asia, as wheat becomes the equal of rice in Asia's diets. This production is highly automated, very few farmers or miners. The directly employed are mainly machinery repairpersons (Called "repairers." Calling them "repairmen" in public, which of course includes your forum post, blogs, and Emails, can get you finned.) Hong Kong, Dubai and Mumbai are the competing financial centers, with branches in less important cities such as NYC and London. Paper money no longer exist - only the global IC€, which is pronounced "ice." (From Internet Conversion Euros, but like "Laser" few remember the origin of this name. Most falsely think name comes from "international currency exchange.")
SUMMARY: US's "manifest destiny", after the GD recovery, is to be a contented colony of Asia trading food, fiber and coal for industrial and agricultural robots that harvest the wealth of the "Wayneland" region.
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*Including even the popular Salem Witch Guild and its local covens stretching from sea to shining sea. (Silver haired Sandy {quite old then} probably will be a high priest in one as disillusioned, like many others, with God who failed them in the GD.) Note "priest" is a "unisex" word also as "verbal discrimination" is illegal.
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Ref.post 750 & Tata's new car: It was shown to public yesterday (as prommissed a year ago "in Jan 2008").WSJ has article in today's (10Jan08) edition. All you can read for free on net is:
"Tata's High-Stakes Bet on Low-Cost Car
By Eric Bellman
The race to put India on wheels is accelerating.
India's Tata Motors Ltd. today unveiled its new, low-cost car aimed at a growing middle class in India -- and potentially elsewhere in the developing world -- looking to move up the transportation ladder.
Rivals are already following Tata's lead. This week, major Western auto makers Volkswagen AG and Ford Motor Co*. also announced plans to build their own small cars in India.
The rising competition is one of several potential roadblocks facing Tata Chairman Ratan Tata, who hopes to become the Henry Ford of India in part by offering a ... " (See my post 750 for some of the characteristics rumor had given it, including the 10Lahk {less than $3000 US dollar} price.)
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*While rapidly traveling down the road to bankrupcy in the US (now less than 13% market share and stock at 22 year low price, even with inflation!) Ford also just announced a 30 billion expansion of its facilities in China. While Sandy does not, Ford recognizes that the US economy is dying.
"Tata's High-Stakes Bet on Low-Cost Car
By Eric Bellman
The race to put India on wheels is accelerating.
India's Tata Motors Ltd. today unveiled its new, low-cost car aimed at a growing middle class in India -- and potentially elsewhere in the developing world -- looking to move up the transportation ladder.
Rivals are already following Tata's lead. This week, major Western auto makers Volkswagen AG and Ford Motor Co*. also announced plans to build their own small cars in India.
The rising competition is one of several potential roadblocks facing Tata Chairman Ratan Tata, who hopes to become the Henry Ford of India in part by offering a ... " (See my post 750 for some of the characteristics rumor had given it, including the 10Lahk {less than $3000 US dollar} price.)
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*While rapidly traveling down the road to bankrupcy in the US (now less than 13% market share and stock at 22 year low price, even with inflation!) Ford also just announced a 30 billion expansion of its facilities in China. While Sandy does not, Ford recognizes that the US economy is dying.
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No. You guys are welcome to stay. Do you know of any other great economic news I may have missed?
I know gold ran up over $900/oz yesterday!! :yay:
I did not know the dollar was losing so much value. Probably caused by Goldman Sack's projection of recession. If you own gold you had better sell it now. It will never recovery the purchasing power it had in 1980 and as US and other governments hold litterally tons of it in vaults and are hard pressed (even running printing presses to pay maturing bonds) a lot of gold will soon hit the market and price will go below $600.
Tata's car is called the Nano: See photo of it here (later by edit: Or in post 773 thanks to Kmguru. I never can get uplink to work):
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/2689913.cms
Here are some specks:
* 624 cc engine
* 33HP petrol engine
* Mileage of 20 kilometers per liter
* Passed full frontal crash test, the offset and side-crash test
* Bumper to bumper length 8% shorter than Maruti 800
* Legroom is expected to be 21 pc more than Maruti 800.
* The car meets the Bharat 3 (Euro 4) emission standards.
* The car that will come in two variants - AC and non-AC
* Will come a dealer price of Rs one lakh plus VAT and transport charges.
* Commercial launch in mid 2008-09
Note a liter is 0.246 gallons and 1.6km = 1 mile. That is 47+ mpg (quite close to the rumored 50mpg)
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/2689913.cms
Here are some specks:
* 624 cc engine
* 33HP petrol engine
* Mileage of 20 kilometers per liter
* Passed full frontal crash test, the offset and side-crash test
* Bumper to bumper length 8% shorter than Maruti 800
* Legroom is expected to be 21 pc more than Maruti 800.
* The car meets the Bharat 3 (Euro 4) emission standards.
* The car that will come in two variants - AC and non-AC
* Will come a dealer price of Rs one lakh plus VAT and transport charges.
* Commercial launch in mid 2008-09
Note a liter is 0.246 gallons and 1.6km = 1 mile. That is 47+ mpg (quite close to the rumored 50mpg)
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well, for starters, it makes competition for oil less than it would be otherwise as Indian begin to drive in large numbers. Also it is just one more example of how wrong you usually are (This time in post 747 to say Americans would not want one at less than $3000). Joe American will need to wait for many years to get one as Tata has no plans to establish dealerships in an collapsing economy.
Also your are wrong to not recognize that the reduction the Nano will make in future oil demand is "Good News." When dollar collapses and Gold is $5000/oz you will no doubt continue to post that as "good news." Your understanding of economics is 2nd grade level, at best.
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Wait until it meets a Hummer.
Not very likely. By time there are Nanos in the US all the Hummers will be up on cynder blocks as their owners can not afford $8,500/ gallon gas for them. (post dollar collapse price)
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
No it won't, because there will be millions of them on the road, and as produced now to meet the sales cost projection it doesn't meet air quality standards, or safty standards.
http://news.aol.com/business/story/_a/automaker-unveils-worlds-cheapest-car/20080110071009990001
While the price has created a buzz, critics say the Nano could lead to possibly millions more automobiles hitting already clogged Indian roads, adding to mounting air and noise pollution problems. Others have said Tata will have to sacrifice quality and safety standards to meet the target price.
"If you're talking about urban environment, it will cause serious problems," said Jamie Leather, a transport specialist with the Asian Development Bank. "It's a major concern."
In 2005, Indian vehicles released 219 million tons of carbon dioxide, the leading greenhouse gas blamed for global warming.
By 2035, that number is projected to increase to 1,467 million tons, due largely to the expanding middle-class and the expected rise of low-cost cars, according to the Asian Development Bank.
"The cheaper and cheaper vehicles become, the quicker those pollution levels will increase," Leather said.
I said:
"...competition for oil less than it would be otherwise as Indians begin to drive in large numbers. ..."
The average number of miles driven in US will go down as dollar declines but continues up in India and China as the real wealth of their populations grows. The Chinese "middle class" is rapidly growing in numbers (almost a million peasants join it each month) and salaries. They bought 18.8% more in last 12 months than the prior 12 months!
In about a decade the Chinese alone will be a bigger set of customers than the Americans. That is why all the major car makers are building and expanding plants in China while some are closing them in the US.
The future automotive market is in Asia. There is no way you can stop them from buying cars, so enviromentally it is best if the cars they buy are smaller and more efficient than US models. As it was for the US about 100 years ago, the auto industry will drive rapid advance in Asia for many decades. Especially in India, where the roads are terrible.
I do not know what stage it is now in, but there are plans to put elevated highways thru Mumbai and many other Indian cities. - The already huge demand for steel and concrete in India and China will grow about 15% a year for decades.
From their POV, in a decade it will be necessary for the US and EU to collapse to reduce the demand on Earth's resources. GWB is serving the Asian interests well by insuring that this will happen. (Doubling US debt, starting expensive unending wars, foolish tax policy that has failed, etc.)
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Ben still finishing his lunch but will say: Fed will "move agressively" to prevent economy decline and DOW jumped up 130 but is already slipping back.
Ben (in prepared speach):
"currently 21% of subprime loans are 90 or more days late."
"adverse effects on the economy in general as well as the borrorers"
" consequence3shave been felt more broadly"
"contributed to investor uncertainity in broad range of financial products" (structured credit products, SCP)
"Great reluctance to extend credit"
"investor more sensitive to the risks in other products as well"
"More expenive and less available credit is likely to impose limits on growth"
"...etc.
Ben on questions:
"To make voluntary "extend mortgage" program more effective: "A first step but need to process more than one at a time -450,000 ARMs are coming up next quarter. ...etc. FED is looking at other options."
Mortgage bankrupcy reform and impact on economy: Ben: Fed has no position problem is to do with out killing credit availability"
Speach did not have the "R" word. Ben: Can not determine a recession til long after it happens and even then the there will be revisions to the data. FED not currently forcasting Recession."
Effect of the election on the FED: Ben: "Politics will not effect ... Difficult enought without taking that into consideration to reach correct decisions"
"Process of making a "stimululus package" is s just strating..."
"A problem of the FEd is tha striucture of the regulatory system as FED is only concerned with the banking section not all regulators especailly state level do not supply infro etc. Loan structures, escrow rules etc. are currently out of the FED's areas."
WHEN QUESTIONS ENDED, DOW WAS LOWER THAN WHEN SPEACH STARTED.
Ben (in prepared speach):
"currently 21% of subprime loans are 90 or more days late."
"adverse effects on the economy in general as well as the borrorers"
" consequence3shave been felt more broadly"
"contributed to investor uncertainity in broad range of financial products" (structured credit products, SCP)
"Great reluctance to extend credit"
"investor more sensitive to the risks in other products as well"
"More expenive and less available credit is likely to impose limits on growth"
"...etc.
Ben on questions:
"To make voluntary "extend mortgage" program more effective: "A first step but need to process more than one at a time -450,000 ARMs are coming up next quarter. ...etc. FED is looking at other options."
Mortgage bankrupcy reform and impact on economy: Ben: Fed has no position problem is to do with out killing credit availability"
Speach did not have the "R" word. Ben: Can not determine a recession til long after it happens and even then the there will be revisions to the data. FED not currently forcasting Recession."
Effect of the election on the FED: Ben: "Politics will not effect ... Difficult enought without taking that into consideration to reach correct decisions"
"Process of making a "stimululus package" is s just strating..."
"A problem of the FEd is tha striucture of the regulatory system as FED is only concerned with the banking section not all regulators especailly state level do not supply infro etc. Loan structures, escrow rules etc. are currently out of the FED's areas."
WHEN QUESTIONS ENDED, DOW WAS LOWER THAN WHEN SPEACH STARTED.
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