Morality of Water Torture

[Fraggle Rocker]

I did nothing to Afghanistan.

Sandy, you really need to bone up on your 20th century history before you start spouting off like this. As I've mentioned before, the majority of what you write on SciForums is NOT consistent with your assertion that you studied in a U.S. university. There are far too many huge gaps in your knowledge for you to represent yourself to our international membership as an educated and informed American. When members like Asguard throw insults at our educational system, it's people like you who give him reason to do so. Please stop making foreigners think that our universities suck. It's not fair to the country you claim to love so much.

Okay?

The Russians and Americans treated Afghanistan like their own private laboratory in the 1970s, as they did with the entire Middle East throughout the Cold War, which ran from the end of WWII until Perestroika. Afghan culture, society and government were largely shaped by the machinations of the CIA and their Soviet counterparts. We even turned a blind eye to their opium production so long as the profits were funneled into pro-American factions rather than pro-Russian.

The Russians began to provide money and advisors to build up a coalition of ragtag militias who wanted to bring communism to Afghanistan. President Carter, having been given some woefully poor advice by his cabinet, believed that the solution to this was to find some even more disreputable rural fighters and lure them to our side by giving them money and advice. They fought each other for years. As the Cold War wound down, the Russian-supported coalition held together and became the insurgency known as the Northern Alliance. The American-supported ragamuffins weren't so well organized, but one particular group had managed to do us a few favors and were favored in return, resulting in their gaining substantial power over the country. This group became known as the Taliban.

So what's going on today in Afghanistan has EVERYTHING to do with American interference. What goes around comes around.

We are there now trying to bring peace. The demonic muslim terrorists don't like that idea.

We are there for the sole purpose of attempting to suppress the growth of anti-American terrorism, in a poorly governed country with lots of hiding places. Nobody on our side gives a damn about the Afghanis and they never did. And the only reason this is happening is that our treasonous president REFUSES to go after the real culprits in the Middle East: Saudi Arabia. The Saudis provide most of the money that funds anti-American terrorists, the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens, and Osama is a member by marriage of the House of Saud. Yet your favorite retard, George Bush, refuses to do anything except buy their goddamn petroleum so the government won't have to start encouraging telecommuting and his pals in the energy industry can get richer.

 

[Spud Emperor]

Feeling exasperated Fraggle?

Don't worry, we foreigners are reasonably adept at sorting the sheep from the goats and although I have wondered long and hard if Sandy is actually a very intelligent poster who has weaved an intricate parody of the very caricature of Sandy, the truth is all too clear, truth is stranger than fiction and yes, anybody who has been around sci for more than 5 minutes takes Sandy's post and attitude with a huge grain of salt.

Yes, She's all American but doesn't represent the thinking variety.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Feeling exasperated Fraggle? Yes, She's all American but doesn't represent the thinking variety.

I suppose. But Sandy is unfortunately not the only American who doesn't understand how much responsibility we have for the Taliban. I've had people call me ignorant and uninformed for mentioning it. But considering how Sandy feels about left-liberal American politicians, it's ironic that she isn't trumpeting Jimmy Carter's role in the CIA's assignment to, in effect, create a group exactly like the Taliban. I wish I could track down the name of the advisor who told him to do that, it's someone rather famous.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

The Russians and Americans treated Afghanistan like their own private laboratory in the 1970s, as they did with the entire Middle East throughout the Cold War, which ran from the end of WWII until Perestroika. Afghan culture, society and government were largely shaped by the machinations of the CIA and their Soviet counterparts. We even turned a blind eye to their opium production so long as the profits were funneled into pro-American factions rather than pro-Russian.

The Russians began to provide money and advisors to build up a coalition of ragtag militias who wanted to bring communism to Afghanistan. President Carter, having been given some woefully poor advice by his cabinet, believed that the solution to this was to find some even more disreputable rural fighters and lure them to our side by giving them money and advice. They fought each other for years. As the Cold War wound down, the Russian-supported coalition held together and became the insurgency known as the Northern Alliance. The American-supported ragamuffins weren't so well organized, but one particular group had managed to do us a few favors and were favored in return, resulting in their gaining substantial power over the country. This group became known as the Taliban.

So what's going on today in Afghanistan has EVERYTHING to do with American interference. What goes around comes around.We are there for the sole purpose of attempting to suppress the growth of anti-American terrorism, in a poorly governed country with lots of hiding places. Nobody on our side gives a damn about the Afghanis and they never did. And the only reason this is happening is that our treasonous president REFUSES to go after the real culprits in the Middle East: Saudi Arabia. The Saudis provide most of the money that funds anti-American terrorists, the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens, and Osama is a member by marriage of the House of Saud. Yet your favorite retard, George Bush, refuses to do anything except buy their goddamn petroleum so the government won't have to start encouraging telecommuting and his pals in the energy industry can get richer.

An honest american, one who can see, I take my hat off to you for your honesty.:bravo::bravo:

 

[15ofthe19]

I suppose. But Sandy is unfortunately not the only American who doesn't understand how much responsibility we have for the Taliban. I've had people call me ignorant and uninformed for mentioning it. But considering how Sandy feels about left-liberal American politicians, it's ironic that she isn't trumpeting Jimmy Carter's role in the CIA's assignment to, in effect, create a group exactly like the Taliban. I wish I could track down the name of the advisor who told him to do that, it's someone rather famous.

You've got it wrong. That's why people have called you ignorant.

If you really think you can put the Taliban on the U.S., then I have to assume you don't know much about the roots of the student movement that became the Taliban.

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban is 1. Giving that incompetent bunch of spooks way too much credit. 2. Completely disregarding the Saudi exportation of Wahhabism to the tribal regions of Pakistan, where the ideas flourished. 3. Disregarding the Pashtun element of the Taliban story, which predates the formation of the U.S.

Just quit oversimplifying something that is extremely complex, and has its genesis in something much larger than the U.S. aims to derail the Soviets. I know your references and ability to put monumental posts on the subject together at a moments notice may dazzle and convince some of the kids on this forum that didn't live through it, but it's intellectually dishonest to keep spouting off "...when the U.S. invented the Taliban...blah, blah, blah...".

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

We did not invent the Taliban and we did not even invent the splinter group(s) that became the Taliban. But we provided key support at a time when they needed it and we are at least arguably responsible for its ability to develop the power it ultimately wielded.

 

[iceaura]

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban

The US gave training and logistical support and money and weapons - tens of thousands, including sophisticated shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles along with "deniable" truckloads oif AKs - to encourage the fielding of militia under the command of Omar, often called the "founder" of the Taliban, and Rabbani, important founding member of the Taliban, and several others of the 30-odd "students" who became the initial core Taliban.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were both US allies with US backing when they put their support behind the Taliban.

The US footprint here is large and deep.

The US seems to have a lot of people who claim that unintended or undesired consequences of US actions are somehow not the fault of the US. That is only true if they are unpredictable and unexpected by knowledgeable people. Bad consequences -similar to actual events - of having an intelligence agency like the CIA foment secret wars and clandestine violent operations and black box corruptions all over the planet were - and are - predictable and expected. That's one reason they had to be secret.

 

[sOopahvi]

I know it goes way back to 1683 when Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.

riiiiiiiiiiiight because christians never imposed its beliefs on unwilling people and murdered many non-believers... riiiiight.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Israel is our friend. We support her. We always will. (Unless a democrat is elected POTUS. Then he/she will let the muslims take over the Jewish people/ land and all hell will break loose there too.)

You mean like when Clinton let the Muslims take over Israel. No, we can't let that happen again. Those were bad years when Israel was taken over by Muslims. We should have known that a democrat with 8, READ IT, 8 years in office would have the time to turn Israel over to the Muslims. Does it matter to you whether you make any sense or not?

 

[John99]

The US gave training and logistical support and money and weapons - tens of thousands, including sophisticated shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles along with "deniable" truckloads oif AKs - to encourage the fielding of militia under the command of Omar, often called the "founder" of the Taliban, and Rabbani, important founding member of the Taliban, and several others of the 30-odd "students" who became the initial core Taliban.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were both US allies with US backing when they put their support behind the Taliban.

The US footprint here is large and deep.

The US seems to have a lot of people who claim that unintended or undesired consequences of US actions are somehow not the fault of the US. That is only true if they are unpredictable and unexpected by knowledgeable people. Bad consequences -similar to actual events - of having an intelligence agency like the CIA foment secret wars and clandestine violent operations and black box corruptions all over the planet were - and are - predictable and expected. That's one reason they had to be secret.

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

yeah, they weren't unbelievably sexist, etc. in those days.

We should not do any soul searching over the fact that we supported and armed the Taliban, Osama Bin Ladin, Noriega, and Saddaam Hussein and then later went to war against countries because of how they were. We have done nothing wrong nor showed poor planning. Nothing about their behavior and beliefs could possibly have led us know. And the fact that we covered up their behavior, well that's just a way of encouraging them to be good boys until that day we decide they are the incarnation of evil. And if it seems like actually they have acted fairly consistantly throughout both our time of infatuation and our time of divorce, well that is merely seeming. You see before when they were bad they were our allies and later when they were bad they were not. You see.

You are quite right. It is all a logical fallacy. There is nothing cynical about who we choose to arm. Nor our motives for arming them.

Our innocence and sorrow about their badness, our shock and dismay, it is all very real.

Why couldn't they have used our weapons and money for niceness.........

 

[15ofthe19]

Classic example of logical fallacy. For example, if you supported someone prior to their future bad behavior would you be responsible for that behavior? Your using the adam and eve analogy.

You're correct. This is my example of how ice views the world.

iceaura finds himself with some extra money one day, so he decides to send his friend some money for a plane ticket so he/she can come to visit. Unfortunately, the plane crashed, killing his friend. Obviously the death was his fault, and he's devastated with grief. If only he hadn't sent that money, his friend would still be alive. It's the only reasonable conclusion.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

You've got it wrong. That's why people have called you ignorant.

If you really think you can put the Taliban on the U.S., then I have to assume you don't know much about the roots of the student movement that became the Taliban.

If you want to say that the U.S. sold some weapons that eventually wound up in the hands of the Taliban, fine. You would be correct. But to give the CIA credit for "starting" the Taliban is 1. Giving that incompetent bunch of spooks way too much credit. 2. Completely disregarding the Saudi exportation of Wahhabism to the tribal regions of Pakistan, where the ideas flourished. 3. Disregarding the Pashtun element of the Taliban story, which predates the formation of the U.S.

Just quit oversimplifying something that is extremely complex, and has its genesis in something much larger than the U.S. aims to derail the Soviets. I know your references and ability to put monumental posts on the subject together at a moments notice may dazzle and convince some of the kids on this forum that didn't live through it, but it's intellectually dishonest to keep spouting off "...when the U.S. invented the Taliban...blah, blah, blah...".

But it's true that you are paying the price now for getting involved where you did not realy belong blah, blah, blah....
And dragging other countries into it blah,
Yet claim innocence Blah, blah
Instead of torturing these fellow human beings (not demons as sandy say's).
have you tried asking them if they realise that you are there to bring peace, because the families of 1 million Iraqi's don't think so, and the 2 million refugee's which fled to Syria don't think so, I live in britain and i don't think so

and if you are there to bring peace how can you bring peace to a situation where you are the cause of war????? without withdrawal???

 

[sandy]

...But it's true that you are paying the price now for getting involved where you did not realy belong blah, blah, blah....
And dragging other countries into it blah,Yet claim innocence Blah, blah
Instead of torturing these fellow human beings (not demons as sandy say's).
have you tried asking them if they realise that you are there to bring peace, because the families of 1 million Iraqi's don't think so, and the 2 million refugee's which fled to Syria don't think so, I live in britain and i don't think so..and if you are there to bring peace how can you bring peace to a situation where you are the cause of war????? without withdrawal???

You really don't get it. It's good vs. evil. God vs. satan. Christianity vs. radical Islam. Us vs. them. WE did not take hostages in '79. We did not bomb anyone's skyscrapers killing 3,000 of their innocent people. We are not blowing people up all over the world on a daily basis.

The muslim terrorists ARE demonic. How could you explain it otherwise? They're just misunderstood "freedom-fighters"? F-that!

They know we're there to bring peace. They don't care and want no part of it. Their Koran tells them to kill/destroy.

We withdraw and we bring the war on terror back here. No thanks.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

You really don't get it. It's good vs. evil. God vs. satan. Christianity vs. radical Islam. Us vs. them.

I THINK YOUR DELUDED OR MAD BY THIS STATEMENT. WHICH EXPLAINS ALOT.it's like a 12 year old's perception

We did not bomb anyone's skyscrapers killing 3,000 of their innocent people. We are not blowing people up all over the world on a daily basis.

Your government did not listen to the people of the middle east so they took matters into their own hands, you obviously have no idea about the cause of your problems and the fact you've had it coming for 30 years.
I hope your proud that innocent people are being killed because your government acts under its own agenda as opossed for the people of the us

The muslim terrorists ARE demonic. How could you explain it otherwise? They're just misunderstood "freedom-fighters"? F-that!

I think their freedom fighters (its what there fighting for) and you hve misunderstood demons, or you maybe John Hagee's sister/mother or daughter

They know we're there to bring peace. They don't care and want no part of it. Their Koran tells them to kill/destroy.

When have you ever read the KU'RAN ?????????? I have a copy and it says nothing about killing and destroying, your confused thats what the christians did in the name of the bible:crazy:

We withdraw and we bring the war on terror back here. No thanks.

Withdraw and if any thing happened the world would be on your side???
stay and the world is against you???????????????????
:spank::blbl:

 

[sandy]

...Your government did not listen to the people of the middle east so they took matters into their own hands, you obviously have no idea about the cause of your problems and the fact you've had it coming for 30 years.I hope your proud that innocent people are being killed because your government acts under its own agenda as opossed for the people of the us.I think their freedom fighters...When have you ever read the KU'RAN ?????????? I have a copy and it says nothing about killing and destroying...Withdraw and if any thing happened the world would be on your side??? stay and the world is against you?...

Listen to them when? When they took our guys hostage in '79, attacked us 911, or every attack in between? Demonic muslim terrorists are killing people. We're not.
The Koran has 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Only a coward withdraws. Demonic muslim terrorists started this but we will finish this fight. We don't care what the world thinks of us. We're the only ones with any b@lls to fight the demonic muslim terrorists. Most of the rest of the world is intimidated/afraid of them. We're not. We WILL destroy them.:bravo:

Get a clue.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

Listen to them when? When they took our guys hostage in '79, attacked us 911, or every attack in between? Demonic muslim terrorists are killing people. We're not.

so you admit in having no interest in listening?
WHY? did they take your guys?
You have no concept of demonology, as it is all in the eye of the beholders belief? OUI/NON?
You concept of world perception of your ideals outside the muslim bubble is so narrow that if like anorexia you feel great, but if turn sideways and see, how you are seen, you will disappear.

The Koran has 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers.

The entire bible is based on suffering for those who don't believe:crazy:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

.
Whatever path you took to get where you are I want no step on

Only a coward withdraws. Demonic muslim terrorists started this but we will finish this fight. We don't care what the world thinks of us. We're the only ones with any b@lls to fight the demonic muslim terrorists. Most of the rest of the world is intimidated/afraid of them. We're not. We WILL destroy them.

Get a clue.

So you sound like a terrorist now??????????
and if you got balls we ain't having that beer.:scratchin: