Monotheist, explain something

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Esoteric

Tragic Hero
Registered Senior Member
when JHWH says to moses "i am the only god, i am a jealous god, thou shalt have no other gods before me, do not make graven images" etc. etc...

JHWH was at that point ADMITTING THAT THERE WERE OTHER GODS people could choose to worship, right? but at the same time claiming that he's the only one. he was admitting that idols and graven images had some sort of power, but at the same time implying they didn't.

so which is it? is JHWH the "only" god out there, period, or is he the one "true" god? it's two different things. either god lied to moses or Baal is out there somewhere waiting for worshippers...



or to say that another way. why did god have to COMMAND the israelites not to worship other gods? if he really were the only god, wouldn't it have become clear to the israelites through a sort of trial and error process of "natural selection" that prayers to JHWH were the only ones that worked? same goes for islam.
 
One pslams even calls the judges of Israel gods. The message is quite clear though. There is only one God and there should be no other worship of gods. However, God is a title. We could just as well say that there is one president and no other presidents.

he was admitting that idols and graven images had some sort of power, but at the same time implying they didn't.
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They do have power or energy. Baal is very real but he is not god.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
There is only one God and there should be no other worship of gods. However, God is a title. We could just as well say that there is one president and no other presidents.
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in other words, judaism and christianity aren't actually monotheistic religions...

or did JHWH kill off all the other gods at some point?
 
in other words, judaism and christianity aren't actually monotheistic religions...
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Your missing something. God and Lord are titles but some english usage is ambigious and some translations may use Lord(LORD) instead of Yahweh or I AM. But Yahweh is God's name as given to Moses.
 
So when God says to Moses, "Im jelous, You shall have no other gods but me", he speaking of the judges of Israel?.

see, the problem with the god you are referring to is that he is basiclly the supreme jew, meaning that on every subject he has 4 opinions that all contradict each other but are presented in a fashion elegant enough to trick goyim into buying all 4

He was Dershowitz before Dershowitz existed
 
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 
Scrollmaker,
that is usually understood as the royal plural (if you don't believe in the Trinity).

Esoteric,
A religion that belives in One God will always be "monotheistic" no matter how many other gods might be thought to exist.

What you really want to know is whether the Bible admits that there are other gods. The answer is no, it states clearly that there is only one true God.
Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

I think your misunderstanding is that when God speaks of other gods, he means by them "every god you might think is also real". You see, many people who were hearing this did think there were other gods, and even worshipped gods they made themselves.

You see this in verses like these:
2 Kings 19 and Isaiah 37:19
18 They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands.

The same with His jealousy:
Deuteronomy 32
21 They made me jealous by what is no god
and angered me with their worthless idols.
I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar

Esoteric,
A religion that belives in One God will always be "monotheistic" no matter how many other gods might be thought to exist.

What you really want to know is whether the Bible admits that there are other gods. The answer is no, it states clearly that there is only one true God.
Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

I think your misunderstanding is that when God speaks of other gods, he means by them "every god you might think is also real". You see, many people who were hearing this did think there were other gods, and even worshipped gods they made themselves.
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bullshyt.


Gen.3:22
"And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

Ps.96:4
"For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods."

Ex.15:11
"Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Ex.18:11
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Ex.20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Ex.22:20
"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Ex.22:28
"Thou shalt not revile the gods."
Ex.23:13
"Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."
Ex.34:14
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Ps.82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

with brings us back to my Dershowtiz comment.
 
Originally posted by Esoteric
bullshyt.

Gen.3:22
"And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

Ps.96:4
"For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods."

Ex.15:11
"Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Ex.18:11
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Ex.20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Ex.22:20
"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Ex.22:28
"Thou shalt not revile the gods."
Ex.23:13
"Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."
Ex.34:14
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Ps.82:1
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

with brings us back to my Dershowtiz comment.
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Right on! You know, I really think Jenyar needs to go into politics. He has this amazing talent for dancing around the issues.
 
when JHWH says to moses "i am the only god, i am a jealous god, thou shalt have no other gods before me, do not make graven images" etc. etc...

JHWH was at that point ADMITTING THAT THERE WERE OTHER GODS
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According to the gnostics, yes. They believed he's just the Demiurge.
 
I believe there is a passage about how God sits among the "council of the gods" as well, is there not? Can someone help me with this one?

Either way, my understanding of it is that the Jewish god was just the biggest and baddest of all the gods. This in itself implies that there were more than one.

Switching gears a bit, I heard of him, but I'm not sure just who Baal is. What is his purpose, and what are his origins?

JD
 
Actually, the definition: Monotheism = belief in only one god – is wrong.
In fact, monotheism is a belief hostile to other beliefs. Hostility and intolerance are most distinct features of monotheism – not number of gods.
 
So can we redefine it this way:
Monotheistic = believe that there should be only one Divine being worthy of being worshipped
?
Hit me
 
What is this argument about????? There were other 'gods' that were being worshipped at the time of presented quotations. The God in the bible is presented as the one and only God. Of course these other 'gods' existed within the minds of others, but the bible specifically states that those gods are false. Where is a contradiction? For I surely do not see 1. Christianity is monoetheistic for it presents only one deity as valid.
 
Originally posted by thefountainhed
What is this argument about????? There were other 'gods' that were being worshipped at the time of presented quotations. The God in the bible is presented as the one and only God. Of course these other 'gods' existed within the minds of others, but the bible specifically states that those gods are false. Where is a contradiction? For I surely do not see 1. Christianity is monoetheistic for it presents only one deity as valid.
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So allah is not the true god, it only exist in their minds?. The only true god is the biblical one, and vice versa?.

They are beggining to cancel each other out.

Since there are more then one God, then im going to begin praying to Thor.
 
Of all the biblical complaints you could have, this is a non-issue. The bible is clearly saying that all the other 'gods' you may believe in don't actually exist. it is saying that only the biblical god exists. The use of plural has also been explained plenty of times in this and other threads.

That doesn't mean that it's right, it just means that the Bible not contradicting itself in this instance. And yes, religions do 'cancel each other out'. That is the reason that people who study more then one religion generally don't pick one. There is no more evidence for christianity then judiasm or some tribal indian religion. Those who do pick a religion seem to do so based more on the people in it then the proof behind it and the logic it employs.

However, you did have a very good point when you said "wouldn't it have become clear to the israelites through a sort of trial and error process of "natural selection" that prayers to JHWH were the only ones that worked". May I kindly suggest that we agree that the first half of your post was simply a misreading and talk about that last part instead?
 
Originally posted by Persol
Of all the biblical complaints you could have, this is a non-issue. The bible is clearly saying that all the other 'gods' you may believe in don't actually exist. it is saying that only the biblical god exists. The use of plural has also been explained plenty of times in this and other threads.
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That is simply inaccurate. If anything is "well known", it is that the proto-Israelites were henotheists. Even the Jewish Virtual Library notes:
  • The Mosaic religion was initially a monolatrous religion; while the Hebrews are enjoined to worship no deity but Yahweh, there is no evidence that the earliest Mosaic religion denied the existence of other gods. In fact, the account of the migration contains numerous references by the historical characters to other gods, and the first law of the Decalogue is, after all, that no gods be put before Yahweh, not that no other gods exist. While controversial among many people, most scholars have concluded that the initial Mosaic religion for about two hundred years was a monolatrous religion. For there is ample evidence in the Hebrew account of the settlement of Palestine, that the Hebrews frequently changed religions, often several times in a single lifetime.
The context of this monolatry was the initial acceptance, and subsequent conflation and differentiation, of the West Semitic Pantheon with its Divine Council myth, the textual evidence of which is found most predominantly in Deuteronomy 32:8. Early Israelites saw their nation as being, like the other [79] nations, under Divine sponsorship, with their God [YHWH] being (predictably) the most powerful, the most feared, etc.
 
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