Monotheism a myth

S

sol13

Registered Member
The monotheistic religions have trouble explaining evil in the world. If there is only one god then why is there evil. I don't mean human evil which can be explained by sin but the evil that affects the "good". How can a monotheistic religion explain natural disasters, plagues of locusts, droughts, famines etc.
One of the get out clauses is to have a devil. The devil tempted Jesus in the desert, muslims throw stones at the devil when they go on their Haj, jews have god and the devil betting over Job. If the devil is so powerful then he is a god also. So there are two gods. This then becomes a battle between good and evil and is similar to Zoroastrianism which was persecuted by muslims for being pagan.
Of course you also have to have messengers such as the archangel Gabriel who comes to earth bearing god's messages. This is similar to Hermes/Mercury the messenger god of Greek/Roman mythology. This makes three gods. Then you have cherubs, angels and djinns. Minor gods all. Which does not make it much different from paganism with a few major gods and many minor gods.
Monotheism has too many inbuilt contradictions. If there is a spiritual world then I am sure it will have many gods and godesses.
 
Sol13 in summary you are saying for evil to exist it MUST have an arch-type to represent evil which many religions call the devil. Putting your examples aside for a moment and without alluding to inconsistancies of monothiesms can you explain why there has to be an archtype of evil for evil to exist? And by your previous stipulation if there was no God would no good exist in the world?
 
II'll tell you the truth about the devil. "It" is but a material law without man. It lies dead in matter, until man with his conscioussness puts his heart in the matter, so that he obeys the material law, and becomes IT. The devil has no life without man, and because the devil is in matter, and everything is created by God, the devil is not God. Matter is not evil itself, actually, when it acts in matter it is a divine law, a necessary natural law. The law of matter is 1. drawing inward, 2. cooling off, 3. paralysis. When man obeys the law of matter, the matter becomes alive - this is the Devil. Because the law of matter; like drawing inward, becomes egoism, cooling off becomes cold hearted, and paralysis becomes ignorance. That is just an example.

Natural disasters, just as natural laws, are necessary; without them the world is not possible. Then we can ask if these are evil? But maybe they seem evil because man obeys the law of the devil. Maybe it is necessary for this evil to exist, so that man would realize that love is important. It might be hard to understand, I myself have suffered much, but I have never suffered in vain, and I think have always deserved it. I very much believe that there is only one God, but I know that Jesus, for example was ONE with God. Then again, Hinduism has many God's, and I do not consider it anything wrong. There are many ways to explain the world, but even Hinduism has a supreme God (Brahman).
 
robtex said:
Sol13 in summary you are saying for evil to exist it MUST have an arch-type to represent evil which many religions call the devil. Putting your examples aside for a moment and without alluding to inconsistancies of monothiesms can you explain why there has to be an archtype of evil for evil to exist? And by your previous stipulation if there was no God would no good exist in the world?
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I think this is what monotheistic religions believe. This is how they explain evil. By inventing a devil because as they are monotheistic they cannot accept that their god would cause pain, suffering, famine & misery.
Personally I do not accept this at all. I waver between several beliefs which to condense I would say are either a belief in many gods (Ancient Greece/Rome, Hindu) or in no god (Atheism/Buddhism).
The gods can be fickle like man, favouring him one moment then not the next. Thus our lives fluctuate according to the whims of the gods. Sometimes they look on us with favour, sometimes with disfavour and sometimes they just can't be bothered. This to me sounds more comprehensible.
Monotheism fails to explain the injustices in the world. In the Bible the Book of Job tries to explain this by testing Job's faith and inflicting hardship and suffering on him. Job passes the test. But this can only be done by introducing the concept of the Devil who questions Job's faith.
How can there be monotheism when God bows to the scepticism of the Devil.
 
sol13 said:
The monotheistic religions have trouble explaining evil in the world.
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You are rushing to conclusions here. If what follows in yor post is the reason why you believe that, read on.

sol13 said:
If there is only one god then why is there evil.
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-Here are some answers:
1 evil is needed for good to exist.
2 evil is a consequence of free will. the deeds of man have an effect on the natural world. For instance, there is a Hadith which (roughly) states "If adultery speards in a community, so that they practice it in public, then they will be striken by a disease as there never was before them" Think of Aids.

Allah says:

YUSUFALI: Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that (Allah) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back (from Evil).

PICKTHAL: Corruption doth appear on land and sea because of (the evil) which men's hands have done, that He may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return.

SHAKIR: Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea on account of what the hands of men have wrought, that He may make them taste a part of that which they have done, so that they may return.

Also concider the "glass-house" effect, which is I believe still a reasonnable explaination for changes in the climate.

sol13 said:
I don't mean human evil which can be explained by sin but the evil that affects the "good". How can a monotheistic religion explain natural disasters, plagues of locusts, droughts, famines etc.
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see above

sol13 said:
One of the get out clauses is to have a devil. The devil tempted Jesus in the desert, muslims throw stones at the devil when they go on their Haj, jews have god and the devil betting over Job. If the devil is so powerful then he is a god also. So there are two gods. This then becomes a battle between good and evil and is similar to Zoroastrianism which was persecuted by muslims for being pagan.
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first of all, no one ever said that the devil has power over the natural world. he can't create a storm or whathever. If, however you mean by powerull his influence over the human...

Allah said:

YUSUFALI: And Satan will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty."

PICKTHAL: And Satan saith, when the matter hath been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and ye obeyed me. So blame not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can ye help me, Lo! I disbelieved in that which ye before ascribed to me. Lo! for wrong-doers is a painful doom.

SHAKIR: And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment.

As you can read, the devil has no authority over man. If he is not powerfull vis-a-vis man, how can he be that compared with God.

sol13 said:
Of course you also have to have messengers such as the archangel Gabriel who comes to earth bearing god's messages.
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AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
verse: 078:038

YUSUFALI: The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.
PICKTHAL: On the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right.
SHAKIR: The day on which the spirit and the angels shall stand in ranks; they shall not speak except he whom the Beneficent Allah permits and who speaks the right thing.

and

AL-RAD (THE THUNDER)
verse: 13:13
YUSUFALI: Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will..yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

PICKTHAL: The thunder hymneth His praise and (so do) the angels for awe of Him. He launcheth the thunderbolts and smiteth with them whom He will while they dispute (in doubt) concerning Allah, and He is mighty in wrath.

SHAKIR: And the thunder declares His glory with His praise, and the angels too for awe of Him; and He sends the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He pleases, yet they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in prowess.

They are by no means gods. They are mere sevants, without freewill. A good human is of a higher degree than an angel, since he had free will and was good.

sol13 said:
This is similar to Hermes/Mercury the messenger god of Greek/Roman mythology. This makes three gods.
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I hope that by now you see the error in your statement. Not every non-human creature is a God.

sol13 said:
Then you have cherubs, angels and djinns. Minor gods all. Which does not make it much different from paganism with a few major gods and many minor gods.
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Gabriel is an Angel, the devil is a jinn.

As for jinn:

ADH-DHARIYAT (THE WINNOWING WINDS)
verse: 51:56

YUSUFALI: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

PICKTHAL: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

SHAKIR: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.

in this regard the Jinn are no more potent than men.

I already discussed the angels, but here is more:

YUSUFALI: And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL: And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

SHAKIR: And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

the angels prostrated before man. :eek:
sol13 said:
Monotheism has too many inbuilt contradictions.
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No. that is the conclusion you are eager to reach, yet have failed to argument.

sol13 said:
If there is a spiritual world then I am sure it will have many gods and godesses.
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Here lies the real question. What makes you wanna believe that?

:m:
 
You wrote:
"1 evil is needed for good to exist.
2 evil is a consequence of free will. the deeds of man have an effect on the natural world. For instance, there is a Hadith which (roughly) states "If adultery speards in a community, so that they practice it in public, then they will be striken by a disease as there never was before them" Think of Aids."

My response:
"Good" and "Evil" are man-made concepts. They do not exists objectively. We impose on other people our own concept of "good" because we believe that is what is best for them. We condemn in others what is "evil" because we believe it is "evil" forourselves.
Who decides what is adulterous behaviour? In christian society monogamy is the rule and therefore "good". A man having four wives would be considered adulterous and "evil". In muslim society it is possible for a man to have four wives so this would be considered "good". In a polyandrous society a woman having two husband is fine so would be considered "good" but to a muslim/christian this would be considered "evil".
Who decides what is adulterous behaviour. In monotheistic societies it is the priest/rabbi/mullah because this is his means of exerting power over the populace.


You wrote:
"They are by no means gods. They are mere sevants, without freewill. A good human is of a higher degree than an angel, since he had free will and was good.
I hope that by now you see the error in your statement. Not every non-human creature is a God.
Gabriel is an Angel, the devil is a jinn."

My response:
As the concept of "good" does not apply then equally your above argument against angels being gods does not hold water.
They are not human. They have more power than man. They are gods emissaries. They are minor gods. As in Greek mythology Zeus was all powerful but he also had messenger gods and minor gods. No different.
 
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Bruce Wayne said:
when?

:m:
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As I stated in my previous post. In the Book of Job. Satan challenges god to test the faith of Job and god accepts the challenge.
Compare this with Jesus in the desert when he is challenged by Satan. He replies "Thou shalt not tempt the lord thy god"
God accepted Satan's challenge so one of them is wrong
Oh and in the Book of Job Satan comes over as quite powerful and quite matey with god. Really very much like Zeus and one of his buddies.
 
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What deeds has Satan done that are actually "evil"? He's more like the trickster coyote that teaches people lessons that have to be learned the hard way. Kinda like Mr. Slugworth from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory where he tests people to see if their faith in God is true or not. I mean hey, if you're gonna have someone in a powerful seat in Heaven as Jesus is in, you'd wanna make sure he was legit, no? Satan looks at things from a different perspective than God. Satan knows human weaknesses and desires so he uses them against us to test our will. God is too god-like whereas Satan is more human so he can relate to us better. What better person to be our tester than Satan? And yes, that would mean that God is not all-knowing and all-powerful because the God of the Bible is not the almighty creator of all God which everything is made up of, but rather just some powerful badass mofo.

- N
 
sol13 said:
The monotheistic religions have trouble explaining evil in the world. If there is only one god then why is there evil. I don't mean human evil which can be explained by sin but the evil that affects the "good". How can a monotheistic religion explain natural disasters, plagues of locusts, droughts, famines etc.
One of the get out clauses is to have a devil. The devil tempted Jesus in the desert, muslims throw stones at the devil when they go on their Haj, jews have god and the devil betting over Job. If the devil is so powerful then he is a god also. So there are two gods. This then becomes a battle between good and evil and is similar to Zoroastrianism which was persecuted by muslims for being pagan.
Of course you also have to have messengers such as the archangel Gabriel who comes to earth bearing god's messages. This is similar to Hermes/Mercury the messenger god of Greek/Roman mythology. This makes three gods. Then you have cherubs, angels and djinns. Minor gods all. Which does not make it much different from paganism with a few major gods and many minor gods.
Monotheism has too many inbuilt contradictions. If there is a spiritual world then I am sure it will have many gods and godesses.
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if God existed and controls everything(allmighty)than He would have to be evil. ;)

me thinks He doesnt exists and everything happens according to the laws of physics/nature!
 
sol13 said:
As I stated in my previous post. In the Book of Job. Satan challenges god to test the faith of Job and god accepts the challenge.
Compare this with Jesus in the desert when he is challenged by Satan. He replies "Thou shalt not tempt the lord thy god"
God accepted Satan's challenge so one of them is wrong
Oh and in the Book of Job Satan comes over as quite powerful and quite matey with god. Really very much like Zeus and one of his buddies.
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Ok start paying attention. First lesson: Monotheistic religions are not identical. As a Muslim it makes no sense to me to defend Christian errors.

In Islam, Allah is above all. No exceptions. For instance you said elsewhere that the sun is more powerfull that God/Allah/Yahweh. That show your igorance of the matter at hand. We believe that not only are the sun and the moon created by Allah and in his full control but that the same goes for all that exists?

YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN)
verse 36:38
YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)
verse 07:54
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

:m:
 
sol13 said:
"Good" and "Evil" are man-made concepts. They do not exists objectively. We impose on other people our own concept of "good" because we believe that is what is best for them. We condemn in others what is "evil" because we believe it is "evil" forourselves.
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Here you are contradicting your first post; You state monotheism is not able to explain cathastrophies, which you call evil (not necessarily so) and now you are stating that "evil" doesn't exist objectively.

Anyways, that different people see evil differently is not a valid argument here. We are discussing whether a belief system holds and whether, according to its premises, explains existece.

sol13 said:
Who decides what is adulterous behaviour? In christian society monogamy is the rule and therefore "good". A man having four wives would be considered adulterous and "evil". In muslim society it is possible for a man to have four wives so this would be considered "good". In a polyandrous society a woman having two husband is fine so would be considered "good" but to a muslim/christian this would be considered "evil".
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Again refer to earlier section.

sol13 said:
Who decides what is adulterous behaviour. In monotheistic societies it is the priest/rabbi/mullah because this is his means of exerting power over the populace.
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Again you come with ready made conclusions, which I don't share. You need to prove them before we can take them for granted. It doesn't suffice that you hear many people say a thing for it to be true. He who decides what is adulterous is Allah, the Creator of man, the sun, angels, the devil...


sol13 said:
You wrote:
"They are by no means gods. They are mere sevants, without freewill. A good human is of a higher degree than an angel, since he had free will and was good.
I hope that by now you see the error in your statement. Not every non-human creature is a God.
Gabriel is an Angel, the devil is a jinn."

sol13 said:
My response:
As the concept of "good" does not apply then equally your above argument against angels being gods does not hold water.
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Why? explain yourself.

sol13 said:
They are not human. They have more power than man. They are gods emissaries. They are minor gods. As in Greek mythology Zeus was all powerful but he also had messenger gods and minor gods. No different.
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What you are saying is that since they are more powerfull than man and that they are the emissaries of God then they are gods. First it can be argued that they are less powerfull than man. They have no free will.

About Zeus, I think he used to consumate young maidens, could be killed or exiled, could have childeren. Allah is above that. Also while many hold the christian god to be a man on a cloud with a long white beard, Allah is not a man, He is not to be compared to his creation. Compare this a bit to how many atheists hold that there is a creator but can't quite define It/Him, only difference is that we know some of his attributes and his words and we try to learn of him through his creation.

I see that you have chosen not to refute the part about Jinn. I take we agree on that now.

:m:
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path said:
Just agreeing with the topic starter on this particular aspect.
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I hope you can see that the topicstarter has a bone to pick with monotheism and not with christianity or Islam.

:m:
 
Bruce Wayne said:
I hope you can see that the topicstarter has a bone to pick with monotheism and not with christianity or Islam.

:m:
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Christianity and islam represent far and away the majority of monotheists in the world.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Ok start paying attention. First lesson: Monotheistic religions are not identical. As a Muslim it makes no sense to me to defend Christian errors.

In Islam, Allah is above all. No exceptions. For instance you said elsewhere that the sun is more powerfull that God/Allah/Yahweh. That show your igorance of the matter at hand. We believe that not only are the sun and the moon created by Allah and in his full control but that the same goes for all that exists?

YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN)
verse 36:38
YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)
verse 07:54
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

:m:
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Jews have the O.T as their holy book, Christians have the O.T & the N.T as their Holy Books and Muslims have the O.T, the N.T and the Quran as their Holy Books. Are they not continually referred to by Mohammed. Are not Jews & Christians "people of the book". Is not Jesus one of the esteemed prophets of Islam?
It is not possible to pick and choose that which suits the purpose of your argument. You cannot believe in Adam and deny Eve. You cannot believe in Abraham and deny Noah.
The Bible is the Holy Book of monotheisn. The fountainhead. The onus is on you to defend them if you claim monotheism is not a myth.

My post on the sun was a spoof. I think you realise that. I did not think a smilie was necessary.

As you raised the subject of the sun and Mohammed creating the heavens and the earth in six days.You may consider this. You quote from the Quran that Allah created the heaven and the earth in six days. Could you then explain the following extracts:

Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days
Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.
If for example Zeus had made such an error Hera, Hermes, Aphrodite & the rest would have ridiculed him. But in a monotheistic religion there is no-one there to contradict God. So he can say what he likes. He can say 2 + 2 = 5. Who is there to dispute him?
It can be good to be ridiculed occasionally otherwise there is a danger of becoming a megalomaniac.
 
At the basis of the first part of your post is a blatant ignorance.

The bible is not the holy book of monotheism, the Qur'an is. Muslims don't view it as a holy book at all.

Muslims believe that there were Holy books delivered t prophets. We are ordered to believe in them. Of these is the Torah that moses- peace be upon him- received and the Gospel that Jesus -peace be upon him- walked with. The Torah was disfigured, and the Gospel is even less reliable. That is why Allah gave us the Qur'an. It is not cherrypicking, I am being consistent from a Muslim point of view. It is an argument that has been going on for centuries. This shows just how ignorant you are being concerning the matter at hand.

As for 2+2+4+8. It only holds if the 2 and the 2 and the 4 were not done simultaneously. And you have skipped verse 11, which says that when the 2+4 days of the earth were over He call spoke to both earth and the heavens.

As for the pantheon soap you discribed, that is merely you imagination given free reign. It is not valid at this discussion.
A megalomeniac is someone who thinks, wrongly, he is Omnipotent. God is omnipotent, therefore he cannot think that wrongly.

:m:
 
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