This and that
My, how you forget. Too bad you quit as a mod. I'd love to have it out with you on this point according to the facts, regardless of how much you despise them.
And if you get huffy about your delusions, Bells, they're still that: delusions.
Ah, the lament of the troll. I wish I could reminisce on how sweet it sounds to my ears, but excrement still smells like crap, and you're tracking it all over the carpet.
You mean we usually suspend people for a quarter of a statement twisted out of context? Could have fooled me.
A trolling stone gathers no moss?
Insofar as the people who most need to understand the point refuse to, yes.
The task is to help them find the courage to face these issues. Putting them in front of people like this? They'll keep presuming you're making shit up, or complaining that you're mentioning the Nazis to inflame emotions, or whatever else they need to cajole moderators toward making ill-informed, poorly-advised decisions on their behalf.
For instance, as a moderator, I had an opportunity recently to make a point by sanctioning someone according to the standards applied to you. But I didn't, because someone would complain that the action was ridiculous, and yes, that would have been correct. But at no point do I expect certain members of the staff to understand that's what their standards look like.
Like I said, head meet wall.
Yes, the comparison becomes unavoidable at some point, but people are determined to avoid it. You've seen what happens to people's rational judgment where such issues are involved. At some point, you need to accept that you're dealing with grotesque neurosis, at least. You cannot appeal to the deviant psyche with logic, except according to its own terms. And, as experience should have informed by now, even that is a risky gamble sometimes.
Take Bells for instance. How many times have I encountered these bizarre conspiracy theories before? Or James. What do you think will change the outlook of someone so unrepentantly sold to bigotry? Really, a quarter of what's there, in order to twist the context? Really, in the face of multiple documented explantions, he still makes shit up about my actions in order to justify sanctioning you? Are Otheadp and Spock going to suddenly wake up? Hardly. I mean, seriously. The nature of this particular political dispute is such that there isn't a whole lot of middle ground. Or, rather, there is, but that middle ground is widely considered radicalized against Israel. Those who acknowledge the unfortunate parallels between Israel and that legendary evil and find it tragic can't possibly be considering human issues; they must necessarily be anti-Semites.
You're dealing with exceptionally neurotic behavior. Such a straightforward approach, no matter how honorable, obvious, or whatever else we might suggest such an appeal to truth might be, simply won't have the intended effect.
Whatever currency the market chooses has only the value people are willing to allow it. This is especially true with moral currency. You're attempting to use truth to appeal to people who demonstrate a neurotic devaluation of truth. If the Israeli government sometimes acts like great tyrants of history, some people will sling any old shit they can to duck reality. And sometimes, it's not the judgment of others they are fighting against. Rather, they are trying to silence the inner accuser, a self-indictment. It often seems, to the neurotic, easier to facilitate the symptom formation than address the cause. I see this all around me in life, whether it's politics or business or family. People often think it much easier to suppress conscience than face up to its indictments. To the one, they will choose the unhappiness of maintaining an intricate network of self-deception. To the other, they cannot necessarily help themselves.
Yes, the polite thing to do is presume people rational, capable, and decent. And beneath it all, they are, at least, decent and capable. All of this bluster and hatred does pursue justice. But you also need to acknowledge to yourself that you're dealing with dysfunction; the grotesqueries of their fancy are symptoms of a deeper, more personal conflict.
I know a psychologist for whom the answer to almost any contemporary American malady is narcisissm. It's not that he's wrong, but he doesn't always account for narcissism as a secondary manifestation; it's his primary diagnosis. Well and fine, but whence comes that narcissism? He would concede the point eventually, but answering that question gets incredibly sticky. Just like Freud and "hysteria". Eventually, we must explore beyond the diagnosis itself, and examine its devices. There are forms of narcissism that are simple and direct, while others are emotional complexes. In this case, by his outlook, you're dealing with the latter. And, of course, likely subject to it to some degree. We're human; neurotic behavior is part of our nature. The problem comes when those neuroses present obstacles to healthy function.
Perhaps God sends a satan to our modern-day Balaam, but that would leave them beating their own asses.
Bells said:
My, how you forget. Too bad you quit as a mod. I'd love to have it out with you on this point according to the facts, regardless of how much you despise them.
And if you get huffy about your delusions, Bells, they're still that: delusions.
Ah, the lament of the troll. I wish I could reminisce on how sweet it sounds to my ears, but excrement still smells like crap, and you're tracking it all over the carpet.
You mean we usually suspend people for a quarter of a statement twisted out of context? Could have fooled me.
A trolling stone gathers no moss?
• • •
S.A.M. said:
Insofar as the people who most need to understand the point refuse to, yes.
The task is to help them find the courage to face these issues. Putting them in front of people like this? They'll keep presuming you're making shit up, or complaining that you're mentioning the Nazis to inflame emotions, or whatever else they need to cajole moderators toward making ill-informed, poorly-advised decisions on their behalf.
For instance, as a moderator, I had an opportunity recently to make a point by sanctioning someone according to the standards applied to you. But I didn't, because someone would complain that the action was ridiculous, and yes, that would have been correct. But at no point do I expect certain members of the staff to understand that's what their standards look like.
Like I said, head meet wall.
Yes, the comparison becomes unavoidable at some point, but people are determined to avoid it. You've seen what happens to people's rational judgment where such issues are involved. At some point, you need to accept that you're dealing with grotesque neurosis, at least. You cannot appeal to the deviant psyche with logic, except according to its own terms. And, as experience should have informed by now, even that is a risky gamble sometimes.
Take Bells for instance. How many times have I encountered these bizarre conspiracy theories before? Or James. What do you think will change the outlook of someone so unrepentantly sold to bigotry? Really, a quarter of what's there, in order to twist the context? Really, in the face of multiple documented explantions, he still makes shit up about my actions in order to justify sanctioning you? Are Otheadp and Spock going to suddenly wake up? Hardly. I mean, seriously. The nature of this particular political dispute is such that there isn't a whole lot of middle ground. Or, rather, there is, but that middle ground is widely considered radicalized against Israel. Those who acknowledge the unfortunate parallels between Israel and that legendary evil and find it tragic can't possibly be considering human issues; they must necessarily be anti-Semites.
You're dealing with exceptionally neurotic behavior. Such a straightforward approach, no matter how honorable, obvious, or whatever else we might suggest such an appeal to truth might be, simply won't have the intended effect.
Whatever currency the market chooses has only the value people are willing to allow it. This is especially true with moral currency. You're attempting to use truth to appeal to people who demonstrate a neurotic devaluation of truth. If the Israeli government sometimes acts like great tyrants of history, some people will sling any old shit they can to duck reality. And sometimes, it's not the judgment of others they are fighting against. Rather, they are trying to silence the inner accuser, a self-indictment. It often seems, to the neurotic, easier to facilitate the symptom formation than address the cause. I see this all around me in life, whether it's politics or business or family. People often think it much easier to suppress conscience than face up to its indictments. To the one, they will choose the unhappiness of maintaining an intricate network of self-deception. To the other, they cannot necessarily help themselves.
Yes, the polite thing to do is presume people rational, capable, and decent. And beneath it all, they are, at least, decent and capable. All of this bluster and hatred does pursue justice. But you also need to acknowledge to yourself that you're dealing with dysfunction; the grotesqueries of their fancy are symptoms of a deeper, more personal conflict.
I know a psychologist for whom the answer to almost any contemporary American malady is narcisissm. It's not that he's wrong, but he doesn't always account for narcissism as a secondary manifestation; it's his primary diagnosis. Well and fine, but whence comes that narcissism? He would concede the point eventually, but answering that question gets incredibly sticky. Just like Freud and "hysteria". Eventually, we must explore beyond the diagnosis itself, and examine its devices. There are forms of narcissism that are simple and direct, while others are emotional complexes. In this case, by his outlook, you're dealing with the latter. And, of course, likely subject to it to some degree. We're human; neurotic behavior is part of our nature. The problem comes when those neuroses present obstacles to healthy function.
Perhaps God sends a satan to our modern-day Balaam, but that would leave them beating their own asses.
