Mary
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Thats right...in fact Jesus rejects his mother to some extent in the gospels. She has no more than a few lines.
However, you have to remember that all organized religions are businesses.
They have to sell their product and half the population are women who probably identify with a female divinity more readily.
There is a general principle of descending mercy in theism
IOW rather than directly trying to approach god through one's sincere earnesty, it is more fruitful to approach god through the via medium of those who already have.
Kind of like the best way to approach someone who is incredibly famous/rich etc is through a mutual friend
IOW rather than directly trying to approach god through one's sincere earnesty, it is more fruitful to approach god through the via medium of those who already have.
Kind of like the best way to approach someone who is incredibly famous/rich etc is through a mutual friend
Maybe Fraggle could go into this but as I understand it Mary means "mother". The first sound babies make is "ma" which become the work ma or mom or mother and Mary is from this. So of course Mary is the "Mother" of Christ. You know symbolism and all.
Second, Mary added the female part needed to balance the Xian religion which was too patriarchal. I mean, how are people going to grow food, have families and etc.. without the blessing of the great mother? Hence Mary.
Second, Mary added the female part needed to balance the Xian religion which was too patriarchal. I mean, how are people going to grow food, have families and etc.. without the blessing of the great mother? Hence Mary.
She was blessed by God.
Most people think the Catholic term "Immaculate Conception" refers to the concpetion of Jesus - "immaculate" because Mary was a virgin.
Even most Catholics believe this - but it is wrong.
It refers to the birth of Mary.
God needed a pure vessel, free from "Original Sin", to carry Jesus - so the sins of his mother were not passed unto him.
God Blessed mary to be pure, so she could be born without sin.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The only two people ever born without sin, according to Catholic doctrine, were Mary and Jesus.
That's a pretty big deal.
Plus she was Jesus' mama.
That's a pretty big deal too.
It's not bullshit.
Not all the prayers, no, but some.
There is a prayer called "Hail Mary".
When you pray on the Rosary, you are praying to Mary.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Mary comes from the Roman Maria, which comes from the Aramaic Mariam, which comes from the Hebrew Miriam.
Before Christianity and in fact a long time ago, mother was the symbol of the main god (creator): for example, the famous Venus of Willendorf
This worship have not been deleted by Christianity, it was too deeply rooted in culture. Instead it has been absorbed.
You can see that in many place of the world where the influence of Christianity is small: Mary get more importance than Jesus
India for example.
This worship have not been deleted by Christianity, it was too deeply rooted in culture. Instead it has been absorbed.
You can see that in many place of the world where the influence of Christianity is small: Mary get more importance than Jesus
India for example.
my understanding is catholics pray to various saints for help with various problems. Each saint having specialities (greek gods anyone?). kinda defies the whole 'you can only pray to god' thing though.
if that's the case, i perceive catholicism as polytheistic, if you can pray to a saint it has divine powers, and is therefore a god. if you're praying to a saint through god or jesus, you're saying a saint has more wisdom than either.
another opinion is that you pray to saints in order to have them pray for you. god hears all prayers, he's not gonna give it more weight just cos a saint agrees with you. unless praying to a saint gives the prayer more weight or something, like you've done the prayer in the correct format therefore will get better results. stupid.
final opinion = catholics are stupid
if that's the case, i perceive catholicism as polytheistic, if you can pray to a saint it has divine powers, and is therefore a god. if you're praying to a saint through god or jesus, you're saying a saint has more wisdom than either.
another opinion is that you pray to saints in order to have them pray for you. god hears all prayers, he's not gonna give it more weight just cos a saint agrees with you. unless praying to a saint gives the prayer more weight or something, like you've done the prayer in the correct format therefore will get better results. stupid.
final opinion = catholics are stupid
Thats correct except they do not view either Mary or Jesus as God. But Mary is pretty much just as important as Jesus- Catholics dont take the Bible too literally except for one...maybe two parts and they do not expressly say which parts but one part is obvious. The rest they dont even bother with.
Yes.
No.
A saint is not a God - not even close.
A saint is a person who has met cetain qualifications while alive - such as performing three miracles and some other criteria, if I recall correctly).
Catholics believe that once in Heaven, people can watch over you.
Just as you can pray to your dead wife, you can pray to a saint.
It doesn't make your dead wife a God either.
final opinion = codanblad is ignorant of Catholicism.
Not quite as important, no.
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
What do you mean "it cannot be duplicated" and what does that have to do with anything?
Nonsense.
Do you know any Catholics?
Well why do you think i am wrong?
Indeed, it's a reflection of pre-Christian pagan religions.
so do saints have the power to help you themselves? is that cutting god out of the loop? or do saints just tell god you need help? didn't he notice? my understanding is that god is all powerful - he's not going to get tired helping everyone, or need saints to remind him or act as heavenly receptionists, taking your prayers and passing on a memo.
you're maintaining that saints have supernatural powers, they communicate or receive messages from/with the living. assigning what i see as divine powers to anything makes them of divine origin, and therefore gods, though certainly lesser gods. given the similarity of this to angels, i suppose my criticism isn't exclusively towards catholicism.
exodus 20 4-6 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God
might god become jealous of you appealing to saints rather than him? statues of saints = bad?
Well i guess this explains everything.
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/willendorf/willendorf.html
Looks like somehting a child would make, wonder if they had pay dough back then.
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/willendorf/willendorf.html
Looks like somehting a child would make, wonder if they had pay dough back then.
Here's what Catholics say:
The Intercession of the Saints
The Intercession of the Saints
Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life. ...
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life. ...
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Why the importance of Mary?
If one looks at the actual History of Catholic Europe, apart from information found in the Bible, which nobody could read anyway, then one finds that all of the Religious Miracles and Apparitions related to Visions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Indeed, if one looks at the Ancient World -- Egypt, Persia, Rome, India... EVERYWHERE could be found Religious Visions and Visionaries that spoke of Goddess Related Spiritual Phenomena.
It took the Printing Press in the 14th Century to re-assert the Bible and all of that Jesus and Jewish Crap. But Catholic Civilization was mostly about Marian Mythologies which were home grown in Europe. Yes, there was the educated Catholic Clergy -- the Corrupt Bishops which nobody ever liked anyway. But the Catholic Backbone of Civilization was the Religious Orders, and they were mostly Marian Organizations, and, again, mostly of local homegrown origins. Sometimes the Bishops declared them heretical and wipe them out, and sometimes it was thought it easier to just go along and collect tithes.
In short, Mary is respected as a Goddess because Mary actually appeared.
Indeed, when I refer to my own Dreams and Religious Visions, there are any number that have involved Some Marian-Like Goddess, but damned few with any hooknosed jew spouting Paulist Doctrines of Patriarchy and Forgiveness of Sin (which sounds good at the tent meeting, but nobody ever dreams of excuses for Sin). Religions arising amidst the illiterate masses are about Authentic Psychological Experiences. If everyone dreams of a benevolent Mother-Like Goddess, and then a monk comes and preaches of a Benevolent Mother-like Goddess... well, its simply True to Inner Experience, isn't it? And how much more important is that then some dusty old book which nobody in their right mind who was ever sold a sick horse should believe anyway.
If one looks at the actual History of Catholic Europe, apart from information found in the Bible, which nobody could read anyway, then one finds that all of the Religious Miracles and Apparitions related to Visions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Indeed, if one looks at the Ancient World -- Egypt, Persia, Rome, India... EVERYWHERE could be found Religious Visions and Visionaries that spoke of Goddess Related Spiritual Phenomena.
It took the Printing Press in the 14th Century to re-assert the Bible and all of that Jesus and Jewish Crap. But Catholic Civilization was mostly about Marian Mythologies which were home grown in Europe. Yes, there was the educated Catholic Clergy -- the Corrupt Bishops which nobody ever liked anyway. But the Catholic Backbone of Civilization was the Religious Orders, and they were mostly Marian Organizations, and, again, mostly of local homegrown origins. Sometimes the Bishops declared them heretical and wipe them out, and sometimes it was thought it easier to just go along and collect tithes.
In short, Mary is respected as a Goddess because Mary actually appeared.
Indeed, when I refer to my own Dreams and Religious Visions, there are any number that have involved Some Marian-Like Goddess, but damned few with any hooknosed jew spouting Paulist Doctrines of Patriarchy and Forgiveness of Sin (which sounds good at the tent meeting, but nobody ever dreams of excuses for Sin). Religions arising amidst the illiterate masses are about Authentic Psychological Experiences. If everyone dreams of a benevolent Mother-Like Goddess, and then a monk comes and preaches of a Benevolent Mother-like Goddess... well, its simply True to Inner Experience, isn't it? And how much more important is that then some dusty old book which nobody in their right mind who was ever sold a sick horse should believe anyway.
isn't it possible you're just dreaming about a fictional character you've heard about? i tend to dream about the stuff i hear/think about. i mean the people who made the bible made up mary anyways, more or less. what supports the existence of mary other than the bible?
plenty of religions with a gentle and beautiful mother as a key goddess. who doesn't like the idea of a gentle and beautiful mother? religions gotta appeal to you somehow. fear campaigns, cool characters, answering questions.