Lorentz Force Paradox

Starting to sound a wee bit crankish...

I'm talking about basics from the high-school here. Google it, take 5 minutes and check it out before you call me crazy, okay?


A well proven fact, but how does it not reconcile both explanations?

You mean how Special Relativity explains Ampere force law or magnetic attraction between two parallel electrons? I don't know, that's the question. That's the only question I see here. Did you mean to ask something else?
 
It does not matter, electric fields will superimpose and neutralise, but magnetic force still gets created due to electrons motion just the same. And as you know magnetic force is independent of electric force just as they are independent of gravity force - they all can coexist in the same space. It's all the same, free electrons, electron beams, electron plasma, electrons in wires... electrons are still electrons, just as you would expect.
I'm talking about basics from the high-school here. Google it, take 5 minutes and check it out before you call me crazy, okay?

Electromagnetic waves will superpose, not sure if we can use "superimpose" for electric fields. And while the magnetic force is distinct, it is dependent on charge, so it cant exactly be completely independent of the electric force. So far there is no way to unify gravity with the other forces, that also does not mean it is independent.


You mean how Special Relativity explains Ampere force law or magnetic attraction between two parallel electrons? I don't know, that's the question. That's the only question I see here. Did you mean to ask something else?

Yes., #61 and #76
 
Electromagnetic waves will superpose, not sure if we can use "superimpose" for electric fields. And while the magnetic force is distinct, it is dependent on charge, so it cant exactly be completely independent of the electric force. So far there is no way to unify gravity with the other forces, that also does not mean it is independent.

You are not "sure"? Ughh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field#Superposition
- "Electric fields satisfy the superposition principle. If more than one charge is present, the total electric field at any point is equal to the vector sum of the separate electric fields that each point charge would create in the absence of the others."


Yes., #61 and #76

There is no even any question mark in post #61 or #76.
 
You are not "sure"? Ughh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field#Superposition
- "Electric fields satisfy the superposition principle. If more than one charge is present, the total electric field at any point is equal to the vector sum of the separate electric fields that each point charge would create in the absence of the others."




There is no even any question mark in post #61 or #76.


you said "superimpose". But while what you said just now may not be correct, I'm sorry for calling it crankish.

Anyway, Tach said differing solutions for the paradox can be explained using Special Relativity as a basic framework. But he failed to explain how and I'm wondering how.
 
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Anyway, Tach said differing solutions for the paradox can be explained using Special Relativity as a basic framework. But he failed to explain how and I'm wondering how.

It is very simple, if a force is null in one inertial frame, it will be null all other inertial frames. I do not expect you to get this simple fact any time soon, based on the amount of thread spamming.
 
It is very simple, if a force is null in one inertial frame, it will be null all other inertial frames. I do not expect you to get this simple fact any time soon, based on the amount of thread spamming.

different topics. as i've said before, i've got a lot of things on my mind.

and i'm not sure how those relativistic expression of force can be modified to produce both explanations.
 
Read the quote again. The electrons are moving through wires not freely in space.

There are a few things going on here. Misunderstandings....

First, in the OP the magnet, its magnetic field and the charged ball were all at rest in Sam's frame and Bob is moving.

Tach points out that since the magnet and the ball are not moving WRT eachother there is no Lorentz force between them in any frame.

Przyk, really said the same thing. He just said it differently. He said, that yes from Bob's frame the ball is moving but so is the magnet and its field. The ball and magnet are not moving WRT eachother in Bob's frame either.., they are moving together relative to Bob.

On the electron issue, the point was that two electrons moving parallel and "freely", is not the same as two electrons moving through either wires or a plasma. The initial problem with the electrons assumed they were moving relativistically. That only happens when they are moving freely. They move slowly through wires and/or a plasma. Only the potential or wave function moves relativistically through a wire. Put an electron in one end of a wire and at near c one (a different one) jumps off the other end (an analogy). The first electron does not move relativistically through the wire. Electron's are displaced from atom to atom in the wire from one end to the other, and this occurs at near relativistic velocity. Same thing in a plasma, since a plasma is generally composed of ions, the electron again moves from ion to ion. Not freely through space.

Electrons moving freely in space, are charged particles and likely do involved some Lorentz force, but from what I have read, to understand that, you would be getting into how an electron interacts with the ZPF not a wire or plasma. That would then involve QED or SED which is far beyond this discussion, although I have read some of that work, it is far beyond my comfort zone for comment. However, the Lorentz forces involved do seem to be linear in the direction of motion.

Przyk can correct me if I misunderstand what he intended, but I do not see that he was presenting anything different - generally - than Tach's basic arguement here.

As long as you remain with the OP from all frames of reference the magnet, its magnetic field and the charged ball are at rest relative to one another.., and no Lorentz force is involved. The charge has to be moving relative to the magnetic field (and in this case the magnet) for there to be any Lorentz force.., between them.

If Bob had his own charged ball and together he and his charged ball move throught the magnetic field, of Sam's magnet, then there would be a Lorentz force, but that was not what was set up in the OP.
 
I think przyk implied a different scenario. One where there is a Lorentz force, but it is balanced.

In the other scenario there are no forces involved.

Same net effect, but I'm trying "reconcile" both explanations with each other.
 
The electric field component? That certainly satisfies przyk's example.

Same effect, but still has different explanations.

Given this current juncture, I think I'll just have to leave it be. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
On the electron issue, the point was that two electrons moving parallel and "freely", is not the same as two electrons moving through either wires or a plasma. The initial problem with the electrons assumed they were moving relativistically. That only happens when they are moving freely. They move slowly through wires and/or a plasma. Only the potential or wave function moves relativistically through a wire.

"Free" refers to electrons not bound to any atoms. "Relativistically" refers to velocity close to c.

It is not assumed in my example electrons move at relativistic speed. It can be any speed, say 10m/s.



Put an electron in one end of a wire and at near c one (a different one) jumps off the other end (an analogy). The first electron does not move relativistically through the wire. Electron's are displaced from atom to atom in the wire from one end to the other, and this occurs at near relativistic velocity. Same thing in a plasma, since a plasma is generally composed of ions, the electron again moves from ion to ion. Not freely through space.

If you want to explain the paradox just go ahead and calculate magnetic force between two parallel electrons as defined by Ampère's force law setup. We know exactly what result you need to get, so go ahead, put the theory to test and show us how it works.


Electrons moving freely in space, are charged particles and likely do involved some Lorentz force, but from what I have read, to understand that, you would be getting into how an electron interacts with the ZPF not a wire or plasma. That would then involve QED or SED which is far beyond this discussion, although I have read some of that work, it is far beyond my comfort zone for comment. However, the Lorentz forces involved do seem to be linear in the direction of motion.

Likely? Seem? Lorentz force is not a matter of opinion. It's basics of electromagnetism and foundation for everything else as it defines SI unit for electric current, ampere, and so there is no any room for doubts about it.

http://sirius.ucsc.edu/demoweb/cgi-bin/?e_m-electmag-em_ratio
- "Students will see a spiraling electron beam up to 3 or 4 loops [Pic 4]. Instructor can play with the parameters of Lorentz formula
ebeam%20formula%20FL.jpg
by decreasing anode voltage, decreasing or increasing current through the Helmholtz coils, or changing the angle between the electron beam and the magnetic field by changing the potential of the deflector."


ebeam%20Spiraling%20electrons.jpg

Are these free electrons? Do they travel at relativistic speed?
 
The electric field component? That certainly satisfies przyk's example.

Same effect, but still has different explanations.

Given this current juncture, I think I'll just have to leave it be. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You need to learn the basics (both math and physics).
 
"Free" refers to electrons not bound to any atoms. "Relativistically" refers to velocity close to c.

It is not assumed in my example electrons move at relativistic speed. It can be any speed, say 10m/s.





If you want to explain the paradox just go ahead and calculate magnetic force between two parallel electrons as defined by Ampère's force law setup. We know exactly what result you need to get, so go ahead, put the theory to test and show us how it works.




Likely? Seem? Lorentz force is not a matter of opinion. It's basics of electromagnetism and foundation for everything else as it defines SI unit for electric current, ampere, and so there is no any room for doubts about it.

http://sirius.ucsc.edu/demoweb/cgi-bin/?e_m-electmag-em_ratio
- "Students will see a spiraling electron beam up to 3 or 4 loops [Pic 4]. Instructor can play with the parameters of Lorentz formula
ebeam%20formula%20FL.jpg
by decreasing anode voltage, decreasing or increasing current through the Helmholtz coils, or changing the angle between the electron beam and the magnetic field by changing the potential of the deflector."


ebeam%20Spiraling%20electrons.jpg

Are these free electrons? Do they travel at relativistic speed?

None of your examples represent an electron moving freely. All of your examples involve electrons moving in a wire, through a plasma or even a magnetic field external to the electron.

When I referenced the likelihood of an electron moving freely in space, being subject to an interaction with the ZPF and involving either QED or SED, I used the terms likely and and seems, because all of the papers I know of which deal with freely moving charged particles, which would include electrons, are theoretical.., not experimental...!

You cannot just assume that what is observed to occur when electrons moving within a material, be it a wire, plasma or any other material composed of matter, can just be applied to freely moving electrons. And to be clear.., an electron moving through a vacuum while contained by an electromagnetic field is not moving freely. It is moving only as the electromagnetic field allows, just as when moving in a wire or plasma, it is moving as those mediums allow.
 
None of your examples represent an electron moving freely. All of your examples involve electrons moving in a wire, through a plasma or even a magnetic field external to the electron.

free electron, noun Physics
- "an electron that is not attached to an atom or molecule and is free to respond to outside forces."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free-electron


When I referenced the likelihood of an electron moving freely in space, being subject to an interaction with the ZPF and involving either QED or SED, I used the terms likely and and seems, because all of the papers I know of which deal with freely moving charged particles, which would include electrons, are theoretical.., not experimental...!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current
- "A solid conductive metal contains mobile, or free electrons... Metals are particularly conductive because there are a large number of these free electrons... The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal... The free electrons are therefore the charge carrier in a typical solid conductor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)
- "The free electrons in a metal may be considered an electron plasma."


You cannot just assume that what is observed to occur when electrons moving within a material, be it a wire, plasma or any other material composed of matter, can just be applied to freely moving electrons. And to be clear.., an electron moving through a vacuum while contained by an electromagnetic field is not moving freely. It is moving only as the electromagnetic field allows, just as when moving in a wire or plasma, it is moving as those mediums allow.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampère's_force_law
- "the force of attraction or repulsion between two current-carrying wires is often called Ampère's force law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biot-Savart_law
- "the Biot–Savart law is an equation that describes the magnetic field generated by an electric current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
- "the Lorentz force is the force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields."


220px-MagneticWireAttraction-2nd.png



The only question is whether you can explain this according to relativity.
 
You need to learn the basics (both math and physics).

yeah you've said that before. Though if i had learned and knew everything i wouldnt have any problems and i wouldnt have come here.
But im here, then i get told "go back and learn the basics so you don't have to come here." and with minimal explaining too. Kinda defeats the purpose.


@OnlyMe i think madus is going off topic. Though that image of spiralling electrons is pretty cool.
Is it okay or do you need me to clarify my explanation?
 
yeah you've said that before. Though if i had learned and knew everything i wouldnt have any problems and i wouldnt have come here.
But im here, then i get told "go back and learn the basics so you don't have to come here." and with minimal explaining too. Kinda defeats the purpose.
This seems reasonable.

But the basics can also be necessary. Tach is not the only contributor on the forum- But you also can put in effort to learn what fascinates you on your own. To have done some learning, then come here to be given that as an answer is unhelpful, but it's also unhelpful to go to a forum and expect to be taught everything.

That's an unbiased comment.
Here's a biased one: I think you're doin' pretty damn well.
 
haha. Yes i shouldnt expect others to answer everthing for me, but sometimes books don't cover everything.
luckily most of the people here have been quite helpful. Most.
 
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yeah you've said that before. Though if i had learned and knew everything i wouldnt have any problems and i wouldnt have come here.
But im here, then i get told "go back and learn the basics so you don't have to come here." and with minimal explaining too. Kinda defeats the purpose.

No, I gave you a hint:

1. What is the complete expression for the Lorentz force?

Here is another one:

2. How do the vectors describing the em field transform in SR?

If you weren't so lazy, expecting everyone to solve things for you only to argue that the "solution does not answer your question" ad nauseaum, you would have answered this question by yourself by now.
 
free electron, noun Physics
- "an electron that is not attached to an atom or molecule and is free to respond to outside forces."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free-electron




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current
- "A solid conductive metal contains mobile, or free electrons... Metals are particularly conductive because there are a large number of these free electrons... The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal... The free electrons are therefore the charge carrier in a typical solid conductor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)
- "The free electrons in a metal may be considered an electron plasma."





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampère's_force_law
- "the force of attraction or repulsion between two current-carrying wires is often called Ampère's force law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biot-Savart_law
- "the Biot–Savart law is an equation that describes the magnetic field generated by an electric current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
- "the Lorentz force is the force on a point charge due to electromagnetic fields."


220px-MagneticWireAttraction-2nd.png



The only question is whether you can explain this according to relativity.

You are confusing "free" electrons, with "freely" moving electrons!

Free electrons moving in an electromagnetic field or between atoms are not moving freely. Their motion is dictated by the electromagnetic field and/or atoms....
 
@OnlyMe i think madus is going off topic. Though that image of spiralling electrons is pretty cool.
Is it okay or do you need me to clarify my explanation?

I could not say. I still don't see what przyk posted as representing a different solution than Tach, or anyone else with an understanding of SR and the conditions set up in the OP.
 
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