Letter from school..

[SnakeLord]

As some might be aware I have been having issues with my daughters school for a little while, (well perhaps not so much with the school as with the education board).

Anyway, the other week I took my daughter out of school because they were going for a service at a local church, (and before the christians start damning me to hell), I also took her out of school the day before because they were having a service at a synagogue.. (So to you christians: I might have pulled her away from your jesus for now but I also saved her from believing in the wrong religion and ending up burning.. Phew)

Out of interest I thought it worth perhaps quoting some lines from the response to my explanation letter:

Dear Mr SnakeLord, (not the name the letter has duh)

Thank you for your letter regarding your daughters participation in religious acitivites.

[insert school name] Junior School is a community school and therefore has no religious bias. However, the law states that schools provide a daily act of worship which should be wholly or mainly of a christian character.

... This is just the first two lines and I'm already amused. No bias, but we do daily worship purely of a christian theme..

Now unfortunately I need to go back and teach the teacher the meaning of bias.

The letter then goes on to state how they're not trying to indoctrinate anyone but that they must do these things or my daughter wont have any friends..


Thoughts anyone?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Anyway, the other week I took my daughter out of school because they were going for a service at a local church, (and before the christians start damning me to hell), I also took her out of school the day before because they were having a service at a synagogue.. (So to you christians: I might have pulled her away from your jesus for now but I also saved her from believing in the wrong religion and ending up burning.. Phew)


Thoughts anyone?

What are you afraid of?
You have so little faith, that it seems you cannot trust your daughter to use her own intelligence, and discrimination.

Jan.

 

[tablariddim]

Indoctrination is a double sided blade. You may not desire your daughter to be indoctrinated into organised religion, but you on the other hand would prefer to indoctrinate her into atheism. Because, even if you're not actively trying to promote atheism in your household, which I doubt, just the sheer fact that you're making such a fuss about your daughter visiting a church or synagogue, is enough to instill distrust and loathing against religious people.

Faith, as you would agree, is a matter of personal choice, but there has to be knowledge and reason behind those choices. You have obviously made your position clear and I expect you have schooled your daughter as to your reasoning, but I don't think it's such a big deal that she gets a taste of 'the other side', especially if you encourage discussion and allow her to see the situation from more than one perspective, and then perhaps she can make up her own mind.

 

[KennyJC]

What are you afraid of?
You have so little faith, that it seems you cannot trust your daughter to use her own intelligence, and discrimination.

Jan.

Well at least his daughter has a parent that will teach her not to believe in what they are forced to worship at school... but most children do not have that freedom. Children believe in what they are told to believe at school. They believe it because their teachers tell them to, because the priests that visit school tell them to.

Children are completely defenceless against religious indoctrination until they are at least in their teens, and even then, the indoctrination of their youth more or less sticks.

As for it being 'law' that their must be daily acts of worship... that is utterly rediculous.

There was a recent study that shows that 82% of brits say that faith causes tension in the country. 63% of brits describe themselves as non-religious. Only 13% of christians visit a place of worship at least once per week with non-christians visiting 29% weekly. 62% don't consider this a 'christian' country either.

Amazing therefor that in this country, most children are told what to believe in state schools. As far as I'm aware, schools in America are better for not doing this? I went to a catholic faith school... well I call it a faith school because I would be shocked if all schools were like the one I went to.

 

[SnakeLord]

What are you afraid of?

Afraid? No. Unwilling to let others indoctrinate my child? Certainly.

You have so little faith, that it seems you cannot trust your daughter to use her own intelligence, and discrimination.

Oh please, we're talking about a seven year old. If someone makes her worship who is she to argue against it, publically stand up for her rights, or tell the teachers that worship of sky beings is for the deluded?

The very point here is that I do trust her intelligence - but it is still growing and still vulnerable. I do not however trust the "discrimination" that abounds in the place where she is supposed to get an education, not a religion.

Now, aside from personal statements regarding me, my fear, my lack of faith etc etc did you actually have anything of any value to say?

Indoctrination is a double sided blade. You may not desire your daughter to be indoctrinated into organised religion, but you on the other hand would prefer to indoctrinate her into atheism. Because, even if you're not actively trying to promote atheism in your household, which I doubt, just the sheer fact that you're making such a fuss about your daughter visiting a church or synagogue, is enough to instill distrust and loathing against religious people.

Let it be said, as was my response to the head teacher, that I have no personal quarrel with religious education, (as largely unbias an education as possible), but with "daily worship", which is not education no matter which way you look at it. The result of that is most likely what you allude to - and so yes, it is a dilemma. However, she is widely regarded as one of the most respectful, nicest, politest and friendliest girls around - none of which is gained through spending 30 mins every day worshipping sky fairies. I "trust her intelligence" and can see that she has good morals and great respect for people regardless to their beliefs while not having to be force fed religious belief.

but I don't think it's such a big deal that she gets a taste of 'the other side', especially if you encourage discussion and allow her to see the situation from more than one perspective, and then perhaps she can make up her own mind.

There is a difference in getting a "taste of the other side" and forced daily worship. Indeed "making up her own mind" is exactly what forced daily worship tries to prevent.

 

[Woody]

I assume this is not a public school, but rather it is a private school. Private schools have their own protocol.

I went to a private school where I was "forced" to attend three religious services per week. The services were non-denominational, there was no mention of christ, and there were Jews in the service as well as atheists, agnostics, catholics, protestants, and about any other flavor you can think of. It was required.

 

[SkinWalker]

Or, you might not make such an ethnocentric assumption that Snakelord is in a nation where your Constitution affords him freedom from as well as for religion.

 

[KennyJC]

I went to a public state school and my class had to go to church every Wednesday

 

[Nickelodeon]

What do they mean by your "daughter wont have any friends"?

Also, why not allow your daughter to attend these visits, and talk to her afterwards about it?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I assume this is not a public school, but rather it is a private school. Private schools have their own protocol.

I went to a private school where I was "forced" to attend three religious services per week. The services were non-denominational, there was no mention of christ, and there were Jews in the service as well as atheists, agnostics, catholics, protestants, and about any other flavor you can think of. It was required.

*************
M*W: And the rest is history...

 

[geeser]

people! people! please read snakelords words carefully, it not the visits he openly objects too, though it is part, it's the forced worship.
my son knows of religion, because his friends are of different efnic groups, and he can watch a read about religion in the media, I to object to forced worship, I will not allow it.( I have took my son out of school on many occasions )
he may wish to join one of these cults, when he's old enough to make those type of decisions.

and woody public schools still push church of england christianity over here, even though we are secular country, we are still run by irrational religionist.

and tablariddim what utter bollocks this next statement of yours is "Indoctrination is a double sided blade. You may not desire your daughter to be indoctrinated into organised religion, but you on the other hand would prefer to indoctrinate her into atheism." children are born without belief in gods, in effect they are atheist from the outset. you cant indoctrinate atheism, if my son ask me why the sky is blue, I will tell him it's because molecules in the air scatter the blue light from the sun more than red light. but the religious stance would be because god made it that way. you cannot indoctrinate into atheism, you can only make him more aware more enlightened, more intelligent.

 

[Woody]

and woody public schools still push church of england christianity over here, even though we are secular country, we are still run by irrational religionist.

Interesting. The public schools in England still have religious input. So how does the violence, drug use, and teen pregnancy in England's public schools compare to their counterparts in the United States? It couldn't be worse, that's for sure:

What's it look like for England?

 

[Oxygen]

Has anybody thought to ask how Snakelord's daughter feels about this? If she wants to see what all the whopping and hallelujiahs are about, then let her see. Just be ready to answer a lot of potentially volatile questions afterwards. If it makes her uncomfortable, don't let anyone force her to go. If her so-called friends won't hang out with her because she won't go, better explain to her what a friend really is, because she clearly didn't pick good ones.

 

[Ayodhya]

Snakelord, how often does this happen at her school? Often, or is this the first time?

If so, then I hardly think it matters either way. You are her father and the only God she can probably comprehend at this point - whatever you say will probably go - not the word of a priest.

Personally, I don't think it matters either way. One visit to a church won't indoctrinate a child and one lack of a visit won't turn her against theists. Imagine how much change you (and many others) experienced as a teenager... she probably won't be indoctrinated, but I don't think that because she missed it, anything negative will happen as a result.

 

[SnakeLord]

I assume this is not a public school, but rather it is a private school. Private schools have their own protocol

Your assumption would be wrong, it is a public school.

What do they mean by your "daughter wont have any friends"?

Well I was paraphrasing, but it basically states that daily worship is important for children to understand others, make friends, gain respect yada yada. Again while I can't say much about religious "education", I have to draw the line at "worship".

Also, why not allow your daughter to attend these visits, and talk to her afterwards about it?

Perhaps the easiest answer would be to say: For exactly the same reason a christian wouldn't want his child attenting a satanist gathering. That parent would undoubtedly be concerned for what is being put in their childs head - which to me is perfectly fine when they are of an age when they can question it and truly analyze it. As a parent I do not feel a 7 year old is ready for that, (or more to the point I do not believe my 7 year old is ready for it).

To be perfectly frank I would rather my daughter be learning 'real' things, improving her English and mathematics. Belief in gods and whatever else can wait a while.

Has anybody thought to ask how Snakelord's daughter feels about this?

It's a tough thing to ask of a child that barely understands what you're asking. There are many many adults that don't know much about beliefs or religions other than the very basics - hell, heaven, gods, demons yada yada let alone children and I see no justified reason to force it upon them, (with daily worships). However, she has brought it up once or twice and has indeed asked several very well thought out and intelligent questions concerning it and I feel I can give a more thorough and worthwhile response than any school could manage.

I've been on this forum for a while now and have seen many angles, (I consider that a good thing), from standard quite mild beliefs to snakes having sexual intercourse with Eve. There is a whole world of belief and opinion which is not going to be adequately expressed in a school, (everything from scientology to flying spaghetti monsterism), and it is that bias that causes a large problem. You will be a christian, jew or muslim - that's about the scope of it and when it comes to daily worship you shall be a christian and nothing else. It's wrong, it's rude and it's against my daughters rights as a human considering she is too young to really question what she is being told.

Snakelord, how often does this happen at her school? Often, or is this the first time?

It's a "daily" worship.

but I don't think that because she missed it, anything negative will happen as a result

A lot of it does come down to that, yes. I'm sure there's probably quite a few here that have never stepped inside a synagogue and yet life continues happily, (I'm sure the same is also true in reverse). I personally right now see no need for my daughter to go to synagogue, church, mosque, satanic ritual, scientology recruiting day or flying spaghetti monsterism annual convention. The thing is no parent or teacher is going to so much as bat an eyelid if the kids don't ever visit a church of Scientology so why should I be expected to send my child to any other kind of church?

If my daughter expresses an interest then I shall take her myself.

 

[redarmy11]

I'd imagine that pulling your daughter out of school so dramatically makes her feel a bit bewildered. She probably feels a bit left out, and wonders what she's missing. Be careful not to sacrifice your daughter on the altar of your own beliefs. At her age none of it will make much sense to her anyway. Let her go along and make her own mind up when she's old enough - at some point, we all do.

Also, why not allow your daughter to attend these visits, and talk to her afterwards about it?

Good advice.

 

[SnakeLord]

I'd imagine that pulling your daughter out of school so dramatically makes her feel a bit bewildered. She probably feels a bit left out, and wonders what she's missing.

Well it wasn't that dramatic, and she seemed happier sitting at home watching pokemon and spending time with her father.

Be careful not to sacrifice your daughter on the altar of your own beliefs.

I am being careful. Like I keep saying, I have no issue with religious education - but preventing the school from forcing my child into daily worship is a completely different matter.

At her age none of it will make much sense to her anyway.

If that is the case then why waste valuable time shoving it down her throat?

..?

Let her go along and make her own mind up when she's old enough - at some point, we all do.

I'm trying to ensure she "makes up her own mind". You say it doesn't make sense right now, and I concur. As such I think it best left until such time when it does make sense.

There's many things that don't make sense to her right now. I'm quite sure prostitution doesn't make sense but that does not mean I send her off to a brothel so she can 'make up her mind'. I am not stopping her from being a prostitute if she wants to, but now is hardly the time, (given that it doesn't make much sense), to go into it.

at some point, we all do

That's how it might be perceived but that's not how it really is. The influence from religious indoctrination from parents/teaching is all too apparent. The majority of religious were born into it, the majority most likely haven't sat down and looked at the whole thing, considered their options and what not - they just go along with it - rarely questioning that which was stamped into their brain before they were old enough for any of it to "make any sense".

 

[FallingSkyward]

I've never heard of that - at a public school? What kind of community are you living in? You hear stories all the time about how kids feel forced to say "under God" in the pledge, I'm surprised that there isn't a huge outcry about the implication that your daughter should be going to (mainly Christian) worship services as part of (state-funded) public school curriculum. It's pretty ridiculous. I know I never had to do anything like that throughout public schooling. It almost sounds illegal(separation of Church and State, anyone?)

 

[KennyJC]

I've never heard of that - at a public school? What kind of community are you living in? You hear stories all the time about how kids feel forced to say "under God" in the pledge, I'm surprised that there isn't a huge outcry about the implication that your daughter should be going to (mainly Christian) worship services as part of (state-funded) public school curriculum. It's pretty ridiculous. I know I never had to do anything like that throughout public schooling. It almost sounds illegal(separation of Church and State, anyone?)

Yes, it's ironic that America being full of religious nutjobs has a good separation of church and state (in schools anyway, and for the moment). But the US was founded on secular principles, whereas the UK was not... and I believe that forced religious indoctrination in British schools is just a mark from our past. I'm pretty sure that reason will prevail. Telling children what to believe is just crazy.

I don't think children should be conditioned to be atheist at school either, before anyone accuses me of being biased.

 

[Oxygen]

I don't think telling children what to believe is crazy. Expecting them to just accept what you tell them hook line and sinker is. Too many evangelical groups play on the trusting nature of children to propagandize them without their parent's knowledge or permission. You ever see those little comic books with these religious stories in them? They used to target kids to hand them out to. If you don't provide a counterpoint for your child, they'll have nothing to compare them to.