Lets switch the words...

[Michael]

FaithFreedom.org

The sites authors offers a question: Can these satanic verses be from God?

Let us choose a few verses of the Quran and switch the words "Muslim" and "non-Muslims" and see how they look:

We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8:12
Let not the non-Muslims take for friends or helpers the Muslims. 3:28,
Rouse the non-Muslims to the fight against Muslims. 8:65,
Then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, 9:5,
Fight the Muslims, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. 9:14,
O ye the non-Muslims take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Islam.9:23,
O ye the non-Muslims! Truly the Muslims are unclean. 9:28,
O ye non-Muslims! fight the Muslims who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you. 9:123,
Therefore, when ye meet the Muslims, smite at their necks; At length. 47:4,

Michael

PS: I think we could easily do the same with Bible or Torah huh? But what about Buhdism or Shintoism or.....

 

[DiamondHearts]

Verses taken out of context to spread hatred against Islam.

Ali Sina is a rabid anti-Islamic zealot. He considers Muslims to be animals even though he was born into a Muslim family! He advocates the indiscriminate killing of Muslims by the US forces even using nuclear weapons and an outspoken advocate of US terrorism around the world.

http://www.icssa.org/yameendebate.html

Read on a Muslim Scholar who has argued with and completely destroyed the credibility of Ali Sina.

 

[Michael]

Maybe Ali Sina is anti-Islam.
So what?
Debate with him about him.

My post was simply that he made an interesting point and that was to switch the word Muslim with non-Muslim to bring a deferent point of view in YOUR religious book.

The versus are not in a context so they are not taken out of context.

They simply say that under certain circumstances God has made it permissible to for some of his creations to kill others of his creations. Kind of stupid to me but I don`t expect much from religions anyway.


Michael

I wonder, do the Buddhist or scripts have some versus on when it’s OK to kill people?

 

[spidergoat]

It is sometimes necessary to kill people. If this verse is about religious wars, which did happen around the time this was written, then it's just a pep talk.

 

[TheVisitor]

Those whom have had thier hearts hardened against Israel, and have vowed to destroy Zion have been made that way to show the mighty arm of God to the heathen nations at the beginning of the Kingdom rule, when they shall all be destoyed.

¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
REVELATION 19:12
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
REVELATION 19:13
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REVELATION 19:14
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
REVELATION 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
REVELATION 19:16
16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

REVELATION 15:4
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Thus shall His Kingdom Rule be established and the total destruction of those who had thier heart set to destroy Israel shall be as a sign for all the nations to see.

Muslims with such hatred in thier heart are falling right into this plan, prophecied 2000 years ago.
Jesus said; "they shall kill you, believeing they are doing thier god a service"

Thier "killing spree" is about to come to an abrupt end"

 

[DiamondHearts]

Israel is a Jewish nation that completely rejects Messiah Jesus (peace be to him).

Muslims as a majority respect and revere both the Messiah and his mother (peace be to them) and believe he will return to rule Palestine and destroy the Israeli nation. If anything, it would be Muslims and true Christians who would follow Jesus (peace be upon him) when he is to return.

Why is Israel so important to you, even though the Jews were the ones who tried to kill Jesus (peace be to him) and persecuted his followers?

I don't understand this at all.

 

[charles cure]

Those whom have had thier hearts hardened against Israel, and have vowed to destroy Zion have been made that way to show the mighty arm of God to the heathen nations at the beginning of the Kingdom rule, when they shall all be destoyed.

¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
REVELATION 19:12
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
REVELATION 19:13
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REVELATION 19:14
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
REVELATION 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
REVELATION 19:16
16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

REVELATION 15:4
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Thus shall His Kingdom Rule be established and the total destruction of those who had thier heart set to destroy Israel shall be as a sign for all the nations to see.

Muslims with such hatred in thier heart are falling right into this plan, prophecied 2000 years ago.
Jesus said; "they shall kill you, believeing they are doing thier god a service"

Thier "killing spree" is about to come to an abrupt end"

your posts are getting really boring. do you have anything at all to contribute, or are you just a ventriloquist's dummy with a preacher's hand up your ass?

 

[TheVisitor]

you've been reported...C.C.

You don't seem to have anything to "contribute" except a one-liner full of obsenities.

 

[Godless]

Snitch go cry to mama!

 

[Godless]

Muslims as a majority respect and revere both the Messiah and his mother (peace be to them) and believe he will return to rule Palestine and destroy the Israeli nation. If anything, it would be Muslims and true Christians who would follow Jesus (peace be upon him) when he is to return.

Have a nice wait, it's been 2500 years

Meanwhile listen to some cool tunes
Islam is not for me

Why is Israel so important to you, even though the Jews were the ones who tried to kill Jesus (peace be to him) and persecuted his followers?

As an atheist, Israel is not important to me, either. I don't stand behind the modern Nazi regime that has become Israel, I think all religious nonsense should be abolished and it's leaders beheaded, in the name of their freaking god!. Let there be peace.

People don't start wars, only these so called religious leaders and their political counterparts, start freaking wars. It's time to get your type of religious nutzealotblowhards to realize that no freaking dumbass who died 2500 years ago is coming back, what kind of idiot bull shit is that, in a day and age like today? Sickos! :bugeye:

Godless

 

[Michael]

Why is Israel so important to you, even though the Jews were the ones who tried to kill Jesus (peace be to him) and persecuted his followers?
.

Israel is not important to me. Actually to me Muslims, Jews and Christians are all pretty much the same. I can hardly see a difference between the religions. Of course there is a real big difference in the cultures where each religion is practiced.

That is a point that I can not seem to get across in the India thread.

If Pakistan were Christian and the USA were Muslim BUT they had their respective cultures. Then the Christians in Pakistan would be killing one another over cartoons of Jesus and the Muslims in the USA would in invading Christian Iraq for its oil. All the while eating big macs and watching porn

Well I think you get my point. It’s the culture that counts. It`d suck to lose it huh?

Michael

 

[Adstar]

Israel is a Jewish nation that completely rejects Messiah Jesus (peace be to him).

Yes the vast majority do. But a few have come to accept Jesus as Messiah.

Muslims as a majority respect and revere both the Messiah and his mother (peace be to them) and believe he will return to rule Palestine and destroy the Israeli nation. If anything, it would be Muslims and true Christians who would follow Jesus (peace be upon him) when he is to return.

muslims do not respect the Messiah Jesus that is why they rejected His WORD and turned to the lies of the koran. The isreali nation will suffer great destruction but a remnant will be saved by God.

Why is Israel so important to you, even though the Jews were the ones who tried to kill Jesus (peace be to him) and persecuted his followers?

I don't understand this at all.

They killed the Messiah Jesus and persecuted early Christians as well But God is not finished with the jewish people. He will preserve a remnant of them through the destruction to come. When the jews where ordered by God to enter isreal the first time they refused, so God made them all die in the desert. But He saved the innocent ones (who had not rebelled) and let them enter into the promised land. In the end times the same thing will happen again. The jewish parents will die but their innocent ones will be saved and enter into the millennial Kingdom of the Messiah. God will honour His promise to Abraham and reject those who reject The Messiah Jesus. He can do this by accepting innocent jews who have no need for a Savoir.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Michael]

DiamondHearts, ever get the idea that overly religious prople are a bit irrational?

Michael

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I think all religious nonsense should be abolished and it's leaders beheaded, in the name of their freaking god!. Let there be peace.

Beheading them could quite possibly increase their power but its a start....well said. I understand the frustration.

 

[(Q)]

Muslims as a majority believe he will return to destroy the Israeli nation.

If it don't look or smell like a muslim, kill it?

 

[TheVisitor]

Israel is a Jewish nation that completely rejects Messiah Jesus (peace be to him).

Muslims as a majority respect and revere both the Messiah and his mother (peace be to them) and believe he will return to rule Palestine and destroy the Israeli nation. If anything, it would be Muslims and true Christians who would follow Jesus (peace be upon him) when he is to return.

Why is Israel so important to you, even though the Jews were the ones who tried to kill Jesus (peace be to him) and persecuted his followers?

I don't understand this at all.

Good question, and I see your point.
Islam seemingly agrees that at least Jesus was a prophet...
and Judism denies He was even a prophet, and crucified Him.

The difference is the Israelites were "God's people" untill they turned away from God, teaching thier traditions and what idolitry they gained from various neighbors for the truth.
They ingnored prophets sent to warn them of their error and killed them.
God scattered them as a people and as a nation they were destroyed to show God's wrath to the rest of the nations of the world.
"a nation that forgets God, that nation shall God destroy"
They were supernaturally blinded to the truth for the purpose of saving life.
God blinded them so the gentiles could recieve the truth.
Therefore they are not held accountable if they still hold to thier Judism and they will see the truth that Jesus was not only a prophet but God in flesh as the Messiah when God is done with the gentiles at the end of their age.
There is only one God, and Jesus was the "son" being that He was the Word of God manifested here in flesh.
In the gentiles He also has brought many "sons" to adoption,God to be manifested in thier flesh also.
He is the first begotten of many brethren.
While the gentiles believers are the sons of god, the Israelites shall be His servants.
This was expressed by the "crossed" arms in the blessing, and the cross.
Israel was "put away" as a potential wife, and the gentiles were taken as a bride.
Still, the Israelites will recieve Christ shortly through the testimony of two prophets and all the nations that have had it put in their hearts to destroy Israel will be found fighting God, and they will be destroyed at His coming as an example of the power of the arm of the Lord, beginning His kingdom rule with "a rod of iron"...where the gentile sons of god will rule the nations with Christ as his "bride"....They valley of Harmegedon will be blood up to the "horse's" bridals, as God treds the winepress of His wrath.
The power of the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in this time.
The nations of heathens will obey and be blessed or defy Him and be cursed.

 

[The Devil Inside]

you people make the rest of us religious folks look bad.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Visitor, thanks for the response. I think I understand this alot better now.

Most Muslims believe very strongly in the Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Holy Virgin Mary (peace be upon her and respect them immensely. As a matter of fact, I watched the movie the Passion of the Christ and liked it very much. I truly believe with all my heart the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) went through alot of suffering for the believers and was one of the greatest men in history. The only problem I had with the movie is the fact that the Messiah (peace be to him) was portrayed by an actor which I do not like and most Muslims like unfavorably on this.

For those who haven't watched the movie Passion of the Christ, I encourage you to watch it, it was very educational and also shows the trials and struggles of the Prophets of God.

My main problem with Israel is that they oppress and kill our Palestinian brothers who are Muslim and Christian, as well as curse the Holy Messiah (peace be to him) and Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him), and defile the ancient shrines of Islam and Christianity. How can evangelist christian organizations have no compassion and support such godless men in the name of religion? This is what I was asking.

By the way, I don't have anything against Jews and I consider their religion holy and divine, I am only against the practice of Zionism which is the 21st century Nazism.

Peace.

 

[usp8riot]

Verses taken out of context to spread hatred against Islam.

So those verses put Islam on the defense? They have been used to put Islam on the offense against other religions also. But we can also claim verses in the Bible or Tora have been taken out of context that create and have created negative consequences. I think this bickering between religions is rather childish.

"My religion is the most peaceful....the way to heaven!"
"No, mine is!"
"Now you must die!"

Can't some of you see how this looks to the non-religious?
Blessed are the peacemakers.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Ok, so since you have questions about the verses I will refute them all and show you why I said these verses are taken out of context and translated wrongly from arabic.

8:12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

Allah (swt) tells of what happened in a battle against the Pagan army which initiated hostilities with the Muslims for no provocation other than to conquer them and destroy Islam. Allah (swt) tells us what He told the angels who were in the battle to help the Muslims. Allah (swt) says anyone who wars with him or challenges him, Allah (swt) Alone will deal with them.

3:28. Let not the believers Take for awliya Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Awliya means comes form root wali, basically someone who has power over you, and someone who can dictate or force you to live your life the way they want.

8:60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

62. Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with (the company of) the Believers;

63. And (moreover) He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: for He is Exalted in might, Wise.

64. O Messenger. sufficient unto thee is Allah,- (unto thee) and unto those who follow thee among the Believers.

65. O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

66. For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah. for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.

Again this Surah is talking of the situation of the Pagan Makkans who were at war with the Muslims. If any army comes to fight your people, Allah (swt) says to prepare the Muslims for battle and make them ready to take on the enemy even if they are outnumbered because victory comes from Allah (swt).

For the next Surah, 9, At Taubah, I will copy and paste my response which I made a little while ago.

The treaty obligation was to the Makkan Pagans lead under Kaffirun and Munafiqeen who massacred a tribe which was sympathetic to the state of Medina (Yathrib) which broke the treaty between the Muslims of Madinah and the Kaffirun of Makkah, it proceeded the conquest of the rival Makkan State. Here is the full context.

9:1-15

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.


(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

9:23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love disbelief above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

This basically means do not allow Non-Muslims to control your lives, especially those who dislike Islam and have no respect for it because they will make a Muslims life miserable. This talks of protection only, Allah (swt) also says in the Quran to the effect 'you are not forbidden to be kind to your parents and relatives who do not wrong you.'

9:28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Quran decree that Makkah is to be only inhabited by Muslims after this year. Makkah holds the holy Kaaba, House of Allah (swt), which Muslims pray to and worship. They are not allowed to enter anymore after this verse was revealed. Funny how he only stated the first part, but not the whole verse. In simple, disbelievers aren't allowed to enter the Holy Mosque.

9:123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

Again, a verse about war.

47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Again, a verse about war. Sounds much different in its entirety, doesn't it.

2:190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

In short, this is exactly what islam teaches about war.

Peace.