Let this be said !

[techstuf]

THE most outstanding and KEY identifier of the thread topics in these forums is simply this: US versus THEM. A close second is the transient morality that is reminiscent of Ali´s rope-a-dope strategy in the legendary Rumble in the jungle with George Foreman. It is very simple to ascertain why THEM are where THEY are now. No matter what the CODE they live by, they STICK to it....they are FOCUSED on their objective and DO NOT DEVIATE. While offering US so many entertainment choices and misinformation and other tactics ad nauseum....to make it harder for US to recognize and choose a CODE of conduct....much less allow US the strength to STICK to it. Of all the interesting banter and salacious tid bits in these forums, (which, themselves can be somewhat diversionary to a sharp focus and adherence to a beneficial CODE of conduct if WE are not careful) Those 2 key identifiers stand out by a mile....US vs. THEM & Transient morality syndrome. THEY choose to adhere strictly to a vicious code allowing THEM to eviscerate THEIR foe. US? well we HATE THEM, we know that much. And WE? well we have a code to counteract THEM alright. WE fight them by "appearing" to go along with their confusionary efforts. We stick to our guns, loaded with moral outrage....but we can´t carry them fully loaded, nope. Oh, and we have to unstrap those bad boys here and there so as not to attract too much attention. We have to appear confused.....like THEY want us to be. WE fight with our, uh, faith, Yeah! FAITH! WE just know that THEY are gonna get THEIRS! WELL, WE have certainly established one thing, THEY are MUCH BETTER at being EVIL than WE are at being good! Shades of: "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing". "Hey don´t look at me, I have family to take care of." "I am doing MY part." Or, "What do you expect from me, I donate to charities"....etc. etc. Before you get ready to maim the messenger I will let US off the hook for a moment.....it´s not OUR fault. It´s YOUR fault! and MY fault!.....because WE are INDIVIDUALLY accountable to the ONE who is keeping score of this entire MESS. The majority of you left that are still with me are at this point saying: Finally, I KNEW he was bringing GOD into this......and why not? That is what it is ALL about. THEIR god and OUR GOD. GOOD and evil. The wisest man I ever knew personally, once said to the effect: " I would rather have YOU hot or cold for if you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth". WE could do nothing to prevent THEM from ruling. It was written that this would occur....and even if you haven´t read it....you already know why....Man is INCAPABLE of ruling MAN. simple. YAHWEH put it this way: "Man dominates man to his injury". True enough. That is a defining statement for the world´s history. Rise and Fall, Rise and Fall. Are WE put here just to ride this coaster till it´s time for US to get off? Sad to say, for most of us that is all there "seems" to be. In the coming days, there will be 3 groups of people, the GOOD, the bad, and the ugly. I say that because it is reality. Both the GOOD and the bad look at the middle, (the morally transient and confused, can´t make up my mind about much kind of people) with more contempt than their enemies! It is in our nature.....and obviously our Creator´s as well....(back to the lukewarm thing). No one likes a fairweather friend whose resonating ambivilence reaches near microwave frequencies, or how about a planetary magnetic field that likes to flip flop! WE fear the unknown. And to most of us, sadly, YAHWEH and HIS son, YAHshua, Jesus Christ are truly unknown. The shockingly horrible world and it´s leaders....THAT we know about. We stay just true enough to ourselves to remain innocuous for the most part, doing our little part, whatever shade of gray it may be today. Yep, 3 groups of people alright...and speaking of 3 groups of people...YAHshua said, that in these last days there would be those that are killed for doing the work of witnessing of HIS kingdom, those that go into captivity, and those that get away safe...guess from which of the aforementioned groups that THESE 3 are taken!....and satan, the ruler of this world for the moment, has 2 of them right where he wants them. I submit that to those of US that REALLY want a change for the GOOD, Try being TRUE to GOD before looking out for good old number 1. Learn what FAITH according to accurate knowledge is. And sad to say....YES, grabbing hands and humming in harmonic convergence, appealing telepathically to the galactic federation, and all manner of intermittent eureka brain farts....count as lukewarm. They have done, are doing, and will do nothing to stop what OUR FATHER has said MUST run it´s appointed course. I hear all manner of talk all the time: "lets take back our government" or "You dont count if you dont vote" or "get involved"...(love that one) just saying it makes you feel like you´ve done your share for the week....now where´s my couch and a donut. Truth is, devotion to what is contained in OUR own limited understanding never has gotten US very far at all. It has been, is being, and always will be the very hand of YAHWEH that has ever made advances in this world, and for HIS own reasons. Here is an appropo statement from you guessed it, the Holy Scriptures...."to the making of books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh". Remember, this was eons before high speed internet access. Another important piece of heavenly advice, "You need not that any MAN teach you these things, but keep on asking and it will be given unto you". KNOWLEDGE can be "downloaded" directly to you from YAHWEH. HOW can WE really make a difference? WE can´t but YOU can. I can. THAT is the difference between US and THEM. THEY NEED US, WE don´t need them. THEY NEED numbers. HE doesn´t. YOU can put thousands of THEM to flight. Well, you COULD, anyway.....with FAITH and accurate knowledge given to you simply by asking sincerely, with patience and expectation to YAHWEH in the name of YAHshua, HIS son. I can boast that I KNOW HIM and YAHshua for my feet are set upon the narrow, focused road I travel. WE, US, YOU....can be more organized and effective than "them".....When WE accept the fact that WE are nothing. Nothing without YAHWEH, the true and living GOD that will never abandon those TRULY seeking HIM. GOD wants US to put HIM to the test regarding HIS promises. Sadly, most of US have dinged our parents for candy as children more intently than have "dinged" our FATHER for Wisdom, knowledge and insights to HIS ways. Yep, the top of a narrow, shaky fence(ie. balancing upon our own "mighty" intelligence) is no place to be when the wind hits.....ever hear the saying, "the devil is in the details"? It is true. So many of US mired in picking at details, that the devil laffs it up as HIS trained and focused minions burn the candle at both ends to try and please him. As cheesy as it may sound to some of US, it is really high time to "let go and let GOD"...."step back and step up" and Seek out YAHWEH, your loving FATHER through YAHShua, Jesus Christ. Here is what i would like YOU to do: GO in private and PRAY to OUR FATHER in all sincerity and ask HIM if you should visit this online resource: (don´t even bother going unless you are compelled to do so)

http://www.missiontoisrael.org/gods-covenant-people/intro-gcpytf.html

I trust that HIS spirit will tell those of you truly seeking to Understand HIM to go and become enlightened by the true knowledge of GOD. Don´t go and examine this information unless you are compelled to do so. TEST HIM out on this. He calls those whom HE will. It is not imperative you go to the website for salvation, I am not advocating a cult like adherence to my choice of what is a good site. YOU truly can become enlightened by simply talking to HIM as much as you can. HE works in awesomely mysterious ways. I can guarantee you one thing, if you are compelled to go the above posted site, you will learn. You will learn Where YOU came from. Why you are HERE. WHO your ancestors are and WHY it matters even today. WHY israelis hate arabs and arabs hate israelis going back to the beginning. And why israelis AND arabs and much of the world hate THIS NATION. How and why this nation is mentioned in the bible, and What promises were made and to whom that made this nation possible. Why this nation WAS so blessed and why it is now so cursed. Why WE must endure what is told must come into our midst. I can guarantee that, to some of you, the bible will seemingly, suddenly open itself up to you like an oasis to a dying nomad. WE have been wandering too long. When you find out WHO YOU really are it must gird you up for the road ahead, knowing you are truly a part of THE winning team. If you feel so inclined, read the entire site posted above, and then come back in here and tell me what a waste of time it was and why. Or conversely, thank you. Which ever you prefer in your heart with true convicition is fine with me. I will leave you with a moment of contemplated levity in an increasingly dreary world:

Sherlock Holmes and Watson were travelling and decided to stop and camp for the night. Weary from the long journey,they pitched their tent and were soon fast asleep. After awhile, Sherlock was awakened and jostled Watson. He said, "Watson, what to you notice?" Watson, now wide awake, said:
I notice what a wonderful night this is, there is a slight northwesterly breeze. and wow, look at that! The stars are very bright tonight, which brings me to realize what a vast universe this is. And in turn how small we are in it. And the the obvious design to it all helps me to see the hand of GOD as creator of the very cosmos!!! Sherlock shook his head and shouted, "Watson, You idiot!" "Someone has stolen OUR tent!"


Is OUR tent being stolen? And are WE noticing? sure. But you got to hand it to good old Watson, He looked on the bright side! Even if HE didn´t notice. How much more important that WE who do notice, do the same! But what TRULY IS the bright side in the many faceted equation facing US? Deep in your heart is inscribed the answer And remember, if the "light" that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!


Peace, joy, love, and FAITH according to accurate knowledge to YOU, dear reader!!!

http://www.missiontoisrael.org/gods-covenant-people/intro-gcpytf.html

http://www.wyattmuseum.com

http://www.anchorstone.com

http://www.thisistherealtruth.com/giantskulls.htm

a caveat about the links, I do not agree with "everything" contained therein, but MUCH truth can be gleaned from them if you are so directed.


There is but ONE mediator between YAHWEH, the living GOD and men, His name is YAHshua, Jesus Christ. If you feel "far" from Him, who do you think has moved?


YAH bless,

a voice in the wilderness

 

[Cris]

Techstuff,

A good sermon but proselytizing here will probably mean you will be ignored. BTW some white space in that long passage would have made it much easier to read.

I’ve picked out what I think are key phrases, and while I doubt you want this kind of feedback, I feel some comment is needed to at least support the clearly required - you being a member of THEM and me being part of US.

…because WE are INDIVIDUALLY accountable to the ONE who is keeping score of this entire MESS.

It is unfortunate that xtians need to put down mankind, to make him seem inadequate and incapable and that there must be a superior to pick up the pieces. But of course the more obvious explanation of such a mess is that we are still learning and finding our way. Just as a child will struggle to understand so too mankind must learn his own way. But a child doesn’t need to struggle for long when there are adults and teachers to show him better ways. Mankind it seems has no such teachers and is forced to struggle and make correspondingly slow progress. If there was a ONE then I wonder why such a being hasn’t stepped in to teach. But then faith wouldn’t be needed if the ONE suddenly appeared and helped. And without faith there would be no mystery, or confusion for that matter.

That is what it is ALL about. THEIR god and OUR GOD. GOOD and evil.

Gods come and go as people dream them up and eventually find them useless and powerless. We have had monotheism before and periods of polytheism and now again the latest dream. It too will pass into inevitable irrelevance as mankind matures and continues to increase his wealth of true and accurate knowledge, but not through the impotence of empty faith but through reality.

Man is INCAPABLE of ruling MAN.

Just as children are incapable of organizing themselves. Knowledge and the ever-increasing spread of knowledge plus the increasing emphasis on education will eventually displace the superstitions of the dreamers that spread the defeatist propaganda that you are suggesting, and then he will be not only be capable but fully able to rule himself.

"Man dominates man to his injury". True enough.

Man learns from his mistakes, and he certainly makes some big mistakes. But the western nations have managed to throw off the tyrannical yoke of dictators and despots and have effectively broken the political tie to superstitions like xtianity. The effect is a quality of life never before experienced on the planet, and a focus on wisdom is on the increase, as the desperate struggle to survive becomes less of a burden. Contrast that with those nations still in the grip of tyrannical superstitions that create poor education, illiteracy, ignorance and a dependence on faith in a desperate and futile attempt to escape their misery.

Are WE put here just to ride this coaster till it´s time for US to get off? Sad to say, for most of us that is all there "seems" to be.

Yes that is sad and greater emphasis must be placed on solving the remainder of the problems in the world. We can also start looking outward as well as continue the work that has just begun to enhance ourselves and make the inevitable leap and evolve in a controlled manner.

WE fear the unknown.

Some do but others welcome the challenges that exploration presents. But ignorance encourages fear of the unknown and religions encourage ignorance so that fear can be sustained. This is the way that religions have maintained their stranglehold over the masses for millennia. As science displaces ignorance and hence decreases fear then religions gradually lose their power and are being increasingly seen as simply irrelevant.

And to most of us, sadly, YAHWEH and HIS son, YAHshua, Jesus Christ are truly unknown.

Gladly this trend seems to be on the increase.

The shockingly horrible world and it´s leaders....THAT we know about.

Alternatively a more accurate view is to see the world as becomingly increasingly less shocking and horrible. For millennia people have suffered from terrible diseases, the pox for example was widespread and terrorized billions. Life was desperate and miserable for most, and short. To survive to 30 was considered a real achievement for a long time. Where was the ONE all this time, why wasn’t man encouraged and shown how to discover anti-biotics thousands of years ago. No, it has been man that has found ways to improve his life and quality of life and it is entirely up to man to solve his own problems, there is no one else. The clear trend is towards knowledge and understanding of the world not less.

…and satan, the ruler of this world for the moment, has 2 of them right where he wants them.

Ah yes the other factor used to spread fear, a necessary fear for xtianity to survive. But education and knowledge is steadily making it clear that such fairy tale creatures are just that, fantasies used to control the unwary and the ignorant. Before modern times people would consider any and every unfortunate incident was caused by demons and the devil, but now the tendency is to look for more mundane causes. The once powerful and feared idea of satan has but almost lost all of the fear that haunted our ancestors. He is now largely a comical figure featured in moronic TV programs and movies.

I submit that to those of US that REALLY want a change for the GOOD, Try being TRUE to GOD before looking out for good old number 1.

I would counter of course that the best way to achieve this shared goal is to do exactly the opposite that you suggest. A continued move away from superstition towards knowledge is the only way to ensure we do not sink back into the terror and desperation of the dark ages when xtianity ruled the world.

Learn what FAITH according to accurate knowledge is.

Ah the paradox that faith, that is based on nothing, will lead to something of value. Faith is no more than dreams and dreams have no substance. They are for the times when we sleep, but when we are awake we need something of substance and real facts are the vehicles that lead to accurate knowledge. Faith is a dead end and the hope of the dreamer.

Truth is, devotion to what is contained in OUR own limited understanding never has gotten US very far at all.

Perhaps you indeed would prefer to live in caves and hunt wild animals and die from the first minor bacterial infection that finds you. Not only have we developed an advanced civilization and culture but every indication is that we are set for short term massive improvements in our lifestyle and abilities. But of course xtianity cannot survive if people can see that mankind can actually sustain and improve itself quite well. So I understand your desperation to discredit mankind but all the evidence is that you have a lost cause.

It has been, is being, and always will be the very hand of YAHWEH that has ever made advances in this world, and for HIS own reasons.

And he didn’t introduce anti-biotics thousands of years ago and save the lives of billions of people because, what? He didn’t understand biology perhaps? No, it has been man alone that has improved his lot in life and has made all the advances that we see, and has created a quality of life never before experienced in the entire history of the world.

KNOWLEDGE can be "downloaded" directly to you from YAHWEH.

Well maybe if you fall asleep and dream, since dreams are all that is being offered here.

with FAITH and accurate knowledge given to you simply by asking sincerely, with patience and expectation to YAHWEH in the name of YAHshua, HIS son.

I like the oxymoron of faith and knowledge, I have not seen that used before. But the acceptance of self-delusion is certainly powerful. Once someone has been indoctrinated into believing that man is useless and there is no hope for mankind and that the world is a mess and is becoming worse and that Satan is powerful and out to get him, then he’ll believe almost anything he is told. It is indeed incredibly sad that people do allow themselves to be corrupted in this way, and that they surrender their intellect and intelligence to follow these unfortunate and devastatingly destructive beliefs.

I can boast that I KNOW HIM and YAHshua for my feet are set upon the narrow, focused road I travel.

Ah to known him, and in upper case. The claim to know something is easy to say, but to show to others that there is something there to know is the real challenge. But real knowledge means ugly things like evidence and proof and we know that religions have none of these otherwise they wouldn’t need faith. So yes I can see you are focused, but on what? You claim nothing but dreams, you use propaganda to attempt to denigrate mankind, you encourage fear through invoking Satan, and for what? To tempt others to follow the same path of self-delusion? Why would you do such a thing? It seems so destructive and despicable.

When WE accept the fact that WE are nothing. Nothing without YAHWEH, the true and living GOD that will never abandon those TRULY seeking HIM.

Again the attempt to denigrate mankind, to ignore everything that he has learnt and achieved since he lived in caves, and to imply that he cannot improve and grow is just more propaganda in a desperate hope to maintain what? A set of superstitions that are becoming increasing disreputable and irrellevant. A seemingly pointless activity.

YOU truly can become enlightened by simply talking to HIM as much as you can.

At this point the self-delusion is complete and the victim will be convinced that talking to thin air will somehow solve his problems. It perhaps might give him feelings of comfort, but otherwise he appears simply as a fool.

HE works in awesomely mysterious ways.

The ultimate mystery of course is how an idea created by human imagination can be anything other than a fantasy. It can’t of course, and there is no mystery, just the vestiges of an ancient superstition desperately trying to re-assert itself.

Instead of reading propaganda websites on worthless mythologies it would be better to take a course in science and develop skills that help determine true knowledge.

Have fun
Cris

 

[~The_Chosen~]

It's a religion forum, so preaching and such is allowed here.

 

[Hoth]

Originally posted by techstuf
THE most outstanding and KEY identifier of the thread topics in these forums is simply this: US versus THEM.

You lost me with the miles of stuff after that, but I agree with that much. Question is, why is it that way? Do the theists and atheists here really think they're converting each other? :bugeye:

Wouldn't it be more useful to discuss things like the implications of certain religions, or comparisons of religions, or anything along those lines? Wouldn't that be superior to an endless series of words that will add no new ideas for anyone since you either have faith and thus say "Amen!" or don't have faith and either say "Um, no" or write a long argument like Cris... or in the reverse direction, the atheist posts that similarly repeat what every atheist already knows and every theist isn't interesting in. Such posts don't add any insight and simply generate the "US versus THEM" which you mention and which makes the forum less useful.

If you had an actual issue to discuss, I'd be glad to pretend there were a god for the purpose of exploring the viewpoint, and perhaps better understanding the motivations of certain people through that. Yet, you don't seem to have anything to discuss... you just write just a bunch of stuff which people either agree with or disagree with but will never cover any new ground or change the mind of anyone.

 

[Cris]

Chosen,

It's a religion forum, so preaching and such is allowed here.

You seem to be implying that some things might not be allowed here. Apart from the basics of avoiding excessive abuse there really are no rules here.

But first and foremost all these forums are debating forums. The religion forum is not just for those who support religion. The forum is for any and all views that are concerned with religion. The religionists have every right to state their case for religion and non-religionists the case against religion. And of course all shades in between.

What this is not is a church where preaching goes unquestioned and unchallenged. If someone posts what I consider a particular offensive and erroneous view such as that from Techstuff then rather than let that poster assume that he has made a point I feel duty bound to state the opposing case. These are the starting elements of good debate.

Hoth

In most successful institutions such as democracy and justice confrontation is the proven technique for progress. I wish this were not so. I wish that intelligent people could come together and reach consensus, but that is simply not the way the world operates. The world is full of vastly differing views and opinions and to reach consensus often means significant compromise and most people are not prepared to give up things they consider of real value. Hence the issue of THEM and US. The implication you are making and Techstuff is making is that somehow such confrontation is a bad thing. I do not see that that is true. In the end it is the strongest view that survives.

If someone says something often enough, and enough people are too apathetic to oppose, then the view often comes to be accepted as if it is valid. In this way minority voices are often never heard and are ignored. There is nothing that says that the majority view is the correct view. If that were true then we would have to agree that at some point in the past the world was actually flat.

Strong views needs equally weighted opposing views until one view is clearly defeated or each side adopts ideas of the other. Changing ones views does occur but usually very slowly. Don’t expect that in a single exchange that one side will suddenly give up. But researching an opposing view when trying to refute it often adds to the understanding of the opposing view. As many great military leaders have said ‘the best way to defeat one’s enemy is to understand how they think’. When people actually make an effort to learn the opposing view then progress does take place.

And finally, I actually enjoy the debate, and preparing such posts focuses my mind on both sides of the issue. If my views are valid then I hope others will be able to see and learn or give support. If I am wrong then the ideas will wither. But for me the value is in the effort to prepare the post, and if no one reads it then it doesn’t really matter.

Cris

 

[(Q)]

Cris

If my views are valid then I hope others will be able to see and learn or give support. If I am wrong then the ideas will wither. But for me the value is in the effort to prepare the post, and if no one reads it then it doesn’t really matter.

Make no mistake that your posts are being read. You're posts are consumate with clarity, rationale, logic and detail. The effort you place in your posts is both obvious and appreciated.

In the end it is the strongest view that survives.

I've not witnessed stronger views from the theists.

 

[Cris]

Q,

Many thanks. Your comment was very much appreciated.

Cris

 

[Hoth]

Originally posted by (Q)
In the end it is the strongest view that survives.

I've not witnessed stronger views from the theists.

They aren't stronger for you, they aren't stronger for me -- but it may be the emotional strength of the argument that matters as far as influencing any change in anyone. The emotional appeal of a scientific argument is stronger for me than a religious argument, but for a theist the reverse is true. It may very well be the strongest view that survives, but at least in non-empirical matters it may be strength of emotion that it depends on. (Actually, to make an obvious correction, it's like evolution -- all fit views survive, not just the "fittest", and differnt people will have differnt ideas of what's strongest for them.)

Cris --

It would seem it's to clarify your thoughts for yourself... and perhaps also for others who hold views similar to yours? This is useful, but I'm just pointing out that it's kind of a pseudoargument since both sides are really only talking to their own supporters... it's strange and interesting that both sides seem to find benefit in this when the surface level would make it look as though the "goal" is converting the other side and I would tend to assume such conversions don't happen. If people wanted to make the most rational decision of what's true independent of their own desires they wouldn't be religious... but they want what's comfortable for them, and that's the value faith provides for the religious people which logic doesn't for them.

Or do "conversions" happen? Never having been religious I can't really get into the mindset correctly, I'm not sure. Does a person who's religious at any time actually want to weigh the odds of what's scientifically likely with regard to God and their own faith? Perhaps a few people might have an interest in this, but these would be people who've already had some change in their life make them want to lose their faith and so they've already started down the path to shedding their beliefs before any evidence comes into consideration. I would imagine that if I were religious I would have the faith because it made me feel better. The only thing which could convert me would be something that felt better. For some people hard science feels best -- many people here certainly -- but not for most people in the general public I'd guess. This would mean that an atheist who wants to approach religious people would really have to appeal to something like scientific pantheism instead of atheism... something that generates an emotional attraction to motivate the person.

This should be the case unless you think there's such similar evidence on each side that people really believe in religions due to evidence. I personally doubt that's the case since I can't see how someone never exposed to religion would develop such an idea... I would presume religious people use evidence (or what they call evidence) to feel better and justify what they've already decided they want to believe. It's certainly not the evidence that drives them to religion, and I would assume that very similarly it's certainly not evidence that would really be driving a person away from religion (even if, similarly, the newly atheistic person uses evidence to justify it after the fact and make them feel better about their decision to not believe).

So anyhow, I'd speculate that your post benefits you and Q and other non-religious people by making them feel better (and perhaps clarifying things) but has no possible effect on a religious person. I'm not objecting to your post or anything, you might say I'm just looking for an anthropological perspective on the purpose of it (and the purpose of the thread starter).

 

[techstuf]

Thank you all for your replies to my previous post! May YAHWEH bless you abundantly and touch your eyelids that they be rejuvenated for the short measure of road ahead in the present reality as viewed by mortal man. It does my heart good to see that the words of my FATHER always bring forth good fruit! May the mark to be put upon you be that of our FATHER and may my Master reveal himself to the one among you whose heart has revealed himself to be ready for teaching, reproving, and setting things straight.


YAH bless,


a voice in the wilderness