finaly, someone has seen the light
www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40908.htm
www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40908.htm
leaving Islam
- Thread starter Q25
- Start date
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Any Religion which would found a Civilization must delineate some kind of a policy regarding the Use of Force.
Catholic Christendom was the only Old World Civilization that was able to survive the onslaught of the Barbarian Mongols. Catholic Society was able to muster a large enough contingent of Trained Warriers and then to give them sufficiently heavy armament.
However, this same Class of Armed Warrier was to usurp political control of Christendom, and their Treason was instrumental in the collapse of Our Civilization (still ongoing).
The World will pass a major hurdle when Political Power is consolidated into One Jurisdiction. This would make Armies superfluous and security could be maintained with police forces only. It reminds me of that Movie "Hero" -- the paradox of engaging in War to secure Peace. It doesn't seem to make sense, but every Civilization that has been able to secure a wide and inclusive Jurisdiction, has reaped a huge Peace Dividend. Competing Jurisdictions always present the threat of possible War. the Wisest Course would be for all competing Powers to surrender to One Central Authority, and then to enjoy the benefits of a Common Peace. But Militarism is one of the World's most thriving Industries, and so there is much interest in perpetuating Conflict.
But, back to the Religious Question. If Violence if forbidden, then Civilization is helpless before the onslaught of Barbarism. But if Violence is advocated too strongly, then Civilization becomes threatened by its own renegade Religious Forces, just as Catholic Christendom was, and Islam now is.
Catholic Christendom was the only Old World Civilization that was able to survive the onslaught of the Barbarian Mongols. Catholic Society was able to muster a large enough contingent of Trained Warriers and then to give them sufficiently heavy armament.
However, this same Class of Armed Warrier was to usurp political control of Christendom, and their Treason was instrumental in the collapse of Our Civilization (still ongoing).
The World will pass a major hurdle when Political Power is consolidated into One Jurisdiction. This would make Armies superfluous and security could be maintained with police forces only. It reminds me of that Movie "Hero" -- the paradox of engaging in War to secure Peace. It doesn't seem to make sense, but every Civilization that has been able to secure a wide and inclusive Jurisdiction, has reaped a huge Peace Dividend. Competing Jurisdictions always present the threat of possible War. the Wisest Course would be for all competing Powers to surrender to One Central Authority, and then to enjoy the benefits of a Common Peace. But Militarism is one of the World's most thriving Industries, and so there is much interest in perpetuating Conflict.
But, back to the Religious Question. If Violence if forbidden, then Civilization is helpless before the onslaught of Barbarism. But if Violence is advocated too strongly, then Civilization becomes threatened by its own renegade Religious Forces, just as Catholic Christendom was, and Islam now is.
Q25 said:
May I ask, what is the purpose of this thread?
:m:
7x7 said:is this article for Ali sina?
how can you figure that he was a muslim?
and what type of muslims he was?
actually i have made a replay to this "fake" person before. i would post that again if needed.
Wow, so you have developed the ability to expose people you don't agree with as "fake". You are amazingly smart and perceptive, aren't you?
Leo Volont said:
Only if the religion=the state
This is simply false it was the death of the khan that stopped the mongols from devastating europe. A SCOUTING force of mongols 20,000 strong defeated a much larger Teutonic/Livonian/Polish force, and they also decimated the Hungarian army. The king of hungary denis had been pleading with rome and the western powers for aid but nothing was done because the pope was to busy/exhausted from fighting the holy roman emporer and had no real martial power to spare. Despite being more heavily armed and armored than the mongols the europeans were simply neanderthals tactically compared to the mongols, as was everybody else in the world at the time.
They were GIVEN control with the churchs blessing and the clergy was up there on top of the social ladder alongside them. The ongoing collapse of our society is nonexistant we are seeing a social restructuring not a collapse, never has the west been so wealthy, enjoyed such a technological lead, been as militarily powerful or as educated as we are now. Is it perfect? no, but it never has been either.
Most of this I can agree with I am sure we will part ways if we discuss exactly who that central authority should be
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
path said:
Civilizations arise on the moral infrastructures established by Priesthoods. Civilizations are inherently the Creations of Religions.
But what is it that you distinguish as "The State". You must be referring to the control imposed by armed usurpers. Every Civilization has to deal with Invading Barbarians who insist upon varying degrees of influence. If they are successful in overthrowing the Priesthoods, then we have what you would call "The State". It is the first step downward toward the eventual collapse of that Civilization.
Bells
Staff member
Surely you're not suggesting that civilisation was better when the Priests had so much power over the running of any society Leo? Lets not forget the debauchery of the Priesthood when they were in positions of power. They, like the power-hungry politicians of today, were only concerned with their wealth and attaining more power and even more wealth.Leo Volont said:
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Bells said:
We are talking about abuses in the face of an explicit Moral Code against the actions of those who have no Moral Code. In one case we can expect a cyclic return to Orthodox Righteousness. In the other case we can expect a uniform and unmitigated evil.
For instance, if you look at the History of the Catholic Church and the separate Religious Orders -- they do go through periods of rise and decline, corruption and reform. They oscillate back and forth in search for a medial perfection.
But unprincipaled Barbarism can go in only one direction -- the lowest common denominator. The most murderous force. The appeal to the basest instincts. No Civilization has ever collapsed from an excess of Religion.
But in the Dark Ages after Civilization's Collapse those pockets of population who are able to envision a Religious Collective are able to unify and organize, survive and prosper. Religious Civilization is attractive when placed side by side to primitive barbarism. Religious Jurisdictions grow. Civilization fills the vacuum of Barbarism.
But there have been 21 Civilizations thus far. Each eventually became cynical concerning the values which enabled their growth and prosperity.
They each killed the goose which laid their golden eggs.
Here is a good one for you Leo take a trip around south america particularly Bolivia, Peru Ecuador there you can go to any number of small impoverished towns and see huge ornate churchs or cathedrals built with the stolen wealth of the local population many of whom go barefoot for lack of money to buy shoes. But hey those are some SWEET churchs
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
path said:
No.
Look at the social structure. Look at the History. Who has been in charge?
Everyone has seen Zoro.
The Bishops of the Church have always been pitted against the Secular Administrations, and often the Secular Administrations were able to usurp the power of appointment away from The Church, effectively turning The Church into a branch of Secular Administration.
As for big and ornate Churches, that only goes to show that at one time there was a Huge Jobs Program which employed the entire community. It reminds me of a tradition in the Far East -- to build Temples out of wood -- so that they will almost certainly burn down. A burned down Temple is great for Jobs. If the Temples do not burn down at least once in 40 years, they are burned down ON PURPOSE so that the laborers who are required to build the Temples will be employed, and so they will have hands on knowledge concerning how Temples are authentically fabricated (40 years after the last temple building, there will still be some old men who know the old ways).
And I am sure it is your hatred for the Church which makes you blind to the Secular Palaces and the Mansions and Plantation Houses of the Rich, Powerful and Wealthy. But you can only blame the Poor who would choose to Glorify God. Your moral sense is upside down.
Leo Volont said:
Guess what Leo the secular powers of imperial Spain did nothing without the consent of the clergy. You are I am certain familiar with the spanish inquisition (since you seem to model your societal ideals upon it).
As regards a jobs program the Inca did it better hell they even had a welfare system to take care of widows and the elderly.
Bells
Staff member
The people with the best weapons Leo. The social structure was one where the Spanish forced conversion or death upon the natives.Leo Volont said:
It's just a movie Leo. A movie.
Usually when the Bishops of the Church abused their powers to such an extent that the people suffered for it. They took from the poor to give themselves prestige and power and relevance.
A jobs program? Dear lord... it wasn't a jobs program. The slaves weren't paid for their labour Leo. It was either build or be killed.
This from the man who just before stated that the lower class (as in the poor) were the one's who were immoral in society? This from the man who just before stated that the rich and the owners of the mansions and plantations were the bastion of a moral society?