Language, Saudi Arabia, Islam, and Christianity

No suprise really. If you use logic it makes sense, the Jewish followers, Islamic followers and Christians all branched from the same area.
 
Trippy said:
So it turns out that christianity in Saudi Arabia predates Islam by several centuries.
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Every muslim acknowledges that Jesus (Isa) is one of the messengers of God and that Muhammad is the last messenger of God. Your point...? :confused:
 
Pinwheel said:
Well OK but is that suprising? Christianity predates Islam by several centuries.
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kira said:
Every muslim acknowledges that Jesus (Isa) is one of the messengers of God and that Muhammad is the last messenger of God. Your point...? :confused:
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From the first link:
Its existence embarrassed the Saudi Government, which prefers to believe that Arabia went straight from paganism to Islam.
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The whole point being, in this article that (specifically) Malay muslims are getting upset at Christians and Jews using the word Allah to refer to their god, in spite of the fact that:
1. Christianity predates Islam in Saudi Arabia.
2. Allah (in malay) is a borrowed word from Islam.

The point here being that if Christianity (and presumably also Judaism) predate Islam in Saudi Arabia, where Islam originated, and those religions also predated Islam with the use of the word Allah, how can Islam claim Allah as a muslim only word?

And yes, before you(generic, rather than specific) go blathering on at me about the varying degrees of Islam, I aknowledge that it may not be true of all Muslims, and this point is also explicitly aknowledged in the first link.
 
Trippy said:
From the first link:


The whole point being, in this article that (specifically) Malay muslims are getting upset at Christians and Jews using the word Allah to refer to their god, in spite of the fact that:
1. Christianity predates Islam in Saudi Arabia.
2. Allah (in malay) is a borrowed word from Islam.

The point here being that if Christianity (and presumably also Judaism) predate Islam in Saudi Arabia, where Islam originated, and those religions also predated Islam with the use of the word Allah, how can Islam claim Allah as a muslim only word?

And yes, before you(generic, rather than specific) go blathering on at me about the varying degrees of Islam, I aknowledge that it may not be true of all Muslims, and this point is also explicitly aknowledged in the first link.
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This is because the muslims object to the "trinity" property of the Christian god/Allah, which refers to the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three in one god. The muslims believe that God is only one, as is written in their Quran:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; (Al Ikhlas, 112:1)

So that's the fundamental different. Hope that explains.

Personally I think that is semantic. I don't get why the Malay so upset...

Edit (added): I have no idea if the Malay muslims also upset to the Jews. Are they...? :confused:
 
Here is what heard in the religion class* back then in Indonesia: historically, there was a virgin Mary (Mary -> Christian, or Mariam -> Islam). The virgin Mary miraculously gave birth to Jesus (Jesus -> Christian, or Isa -> Islam). The wonder baby can immediately speak too. So, the crowd surrounded them and asked, who are you? Some people heard it as "Ana abdullah" (I am the servant of God/Allah), and some heard it as "Ana ibnullah" (I am the son of God/Allah). That's where the dichotomy stem from. But of course, I have no idea about the accuracy of the story.

*) In Indonesia, everybody got religion class, no matter what their religions are, it is one of obligatory subject like maths :eek:
 
kira said:
Every muslim acknowledges that Jesus (Isa) is one of the messengers of God and that Muhammad is the last messenger of God. Your point...? :confused:
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Not all Muslims think Mohammad was the last messenger. Many Muslims think Mohammad was just another prophet.
 
Michael said:
Not all Muslims think Mohammad was the last messenger. Many Muslims think Mohammad was just another prophet.
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Sorry for my mistake. This is because of my English (sigh). I should have written it as:

"Every muslim acknowledges that Jesus (Isa) is one of the messengers (prophet) of God and that Muhammad is the last messenger prophet of God.
​
All prophets are messengers, but not every messengers are prophets. Muslims believe, there is no more prophet after Muhammad, but there is messenger after him.

The Indonesian term for prophet is nabi, while the Indonesian term for messenger is rasul. But I don't know the Arabic term.

Added: the blue part
 
To make it more clear, the muslims believe:
- Jesus (Isa) is a messenger and a prophet of God
- Muhammad is a messenger and the last prophet of God

In Islam, there are many prophets, the well-known one are 25, Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad are among them, Muhammad is the last one.
 
kira said:
Sorry for my mistake. This is because of my English (sigh). I should have written it as:

"Every muslim acknowledges that Jesus (Isa) is one of the messengers (prophet) of God and that Muhammad is the last messenger prophet of God.
​
All prophets are messengers, but not every messengers are prophets. Muslims believe, there is no more prophet after Muhammad, but there is messenger after him.

The Indonesian term for prophet is nabi, while the Indonesian term for messenger is rasul. But I don't know the Arabic term.

Added: the blue part
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I'm not sure if it really matters. I mean, what does The LAST "prophet" even mean? How is a Prophet different from a Messenger? I mean in terms of what they do, it seems like there's little, if any, difference. Take the Ahmadiyya for example. I think they would concider themselves Muslims - and they have a new Prophet/Messenger/Mujaddid/Messiah named Ghulam Ahmad. So they added to the work of Mohammad. Or take the Bahá'í, just like when Mohammad said the Bible was corrupted and he fixed it up, they say the Qur'an is corrupted and their new "Adam" (aka: Prophet, Messenger, etc...) named Bahá'u'lláh brought the new message from Allah.

Not that it matters. IMO the person who came up with the idea "Last" prophet was short sighted. Either he was really arrogant or he didn't have the sense enough to see past his own lifetime (or didn't care enough to) or both.
 
Michael said:
I'm not sure if it really matters. I mean, what does The LAST "prophet" even mean? How is a Prophet different from a Messenger? I mean in terms of what they do, it seems like there's little, if any, difference. Take the Ahmadiyya for example. I think they would concider themselves Muslims - and they have a new Prophet/Messenger/Mujaddid/Messiah named Ghulam Ahmad. So they added to the work of Mohammad. Or take the Bahá'í, just like when Mohammad said the Bible was corrupted and he fixed it up, they say the Qur'an is corrupted and their new "Adam" (aka: Prophet, Messenger, etc...) named Bahá'u'lláh brought the new message from Allah.
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A prophet is someone who receives the verses from God. A messenger is someone who distribute [deliver] them [from the prophet to other people]. So, a prophet is a messenger, too, but not every messenger is prophet.

Trippy wanted to say that the Christians used the term Allah earlier than the Muslims. Most people think that Christian prophet is Jesus and Islamic prophet is Muhammad. I then confirmed that in Islam teaching, Muhammad is mentioned as the last prophet (means he came after Jesus). Both came from communities that use Arabic, and in Arabic the word Allah refers to God. So he was right.

Michael said:
Not that it matters. IMO the person who came up with the idea "Last" prophet was short sighted. Either he was really arrogant or he didn't have the sense enough to see past his own lifetime (or didn't care enough to) or both.
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You may call it arrogant, but that is what is written in the Quran, and the muslims tend to believe that Quran is the words from God:

kira said:
As why do I claim that muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, it's because it's written in the Quran. Quran is delivered to Muhammad verse by verse, and the last verse was:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3]​


No more verse delivered after that one (as Allah promised). That's why muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet.
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[Notice the word perfected (completed)]. Means, if somebody in the future will say the he is a [new] prophet [(receive new news from God)], no muslims is going to believe him, because it will contradict the Quran. . I don't say that this is right or wrong, its just what most muslims believe.

Edit: add blue part
 
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"We have inspired you just as We inspired Noah and the prophets following him, and as We inspired Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the patriarchs, and Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron and Solomon; and just as We gave David the Psalms.

"We have told you about some messengers [sent] previously, while other messengers We have not yet told you about-God spoke directly to Moses- messengers bringing good news plus a warning so that mankind would have no argument against God once the messengers [had come]. God is Powerful, Wise. "-Quran

Such was Our argument which We furnished Abraham with against his folk: We raise anyone We wish to in rank. Your Lord is Wise, Aware. We bestowed Isaac and Jacob on him; each We guided. Noah We had guided before, and from his offspring [came] David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron; thus We reward those who act kindly. Zachariah, John, Jesus and Elijah were all honorable men. And Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot; each We preferred over [everybody else in] the Universe. We picked out some of their forefathers, their offspring and their brethren, and guided them to a Straight Road."-Quran

"He has instituted the [same] religion for you [Muslims] as He recommended for Noah, and which We have inspired in you and recommended for Abraham, Moses and Jesus: "Maintain religion and do not stir up any divisions within it."

A true Muslim would know what I just have posted to be the truth. They would not try to stir up some scandal about the name of Allah. This only to stir up more division within. A true Muslim would know God and Allah, and every other name for the One and Only One God belongs to Him.

People are consumed by their own doings.
 
I'm 100% positive that the Muslims that tried to burn down those Churches think they are "true" Muslims.
 
Trippy said:
So it turns out that christianity in Saudi Arabia predates Islam by several centuries.

In the name of Allah
An article/opinion piece on the use of the word Allah to describe the Abrahamic god by religions other than Islam in Malay, and some recent law changes.

Nestorian Church at al-Jubail
The church in question.

Nestorianism on Wiki
The Shcism in question.
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Quite. This is almost completely ignored, so far as I've found, in any high school treatment of the Middle East vis-a-vis Europe and the Dark Ages - Renaissance period. Inevitably this confusion gets tossed into the general morass of issues around the Crusades as more fire for the nasty Christians.

kira said:
Edit (added): I have no idea if the Malay muslims also upset to the Jews. Are they...?
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If so, the best thing for the immediate health of the Jews would be to take it quietly.

Or perhaps not. Does not social change come with risk? Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks would certainly think so.
 
Michael said:
I'm 100% positive that the Muslims that tried to burn down those Churches think they are "true" Muslims.
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"Think," is the key word. You said it best. They are just people that happen to be Muslim.

What do you know. LOL. Every time you post something it makes me feel as if you are 17 years old.
 
-ND- said:
"Think," is the key word. You said it best. They are just people that happen to be Muslim.

What do you know. LOL. Every time you post something it makes me feel as if you are 17 years old.
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That's nice -ND- keep going with that if it makes you happy.
 
Look, it wasn't anyone here who went out and burned down a Church because that church used the word Allah. Instead of wasting time here - why don't you go educate some Muslims in Malaysia on why their a bunch a hypocritical ass holes.
 
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