Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

Why is it so difficult for you and DiamondHearts to distinguish between wanting to wear a veil, and being forced to do so by the state?
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because you seem to think that Iranian women by and large do not want to wear the veil. I come from Mumbai, a progressive city where given the choice, many Muslim women wear the hijab as well.

As in Egypt for instance:

Comments by Egyptian tycoon Naguib Sawiris on the Islamic headscarf have sparked a heated debate on freedom of speech and prompted a conservative sheikh to issue a fatwa urging Muslims to boycott Sawiris' companies.

The businessman, who ranks among the world's 100 richest men, had criticised the growing influence of religion, such as the Islamic hijab, or veil, worn by women in the street.

Egypt is dominated by Sunni Muslims, and the majority of Muslim women wear the headscarf. An increasing number wear the niqab, a full face veil.

Last year, Culture Minister Faruq Hosni caused a furore by saying that wearing the veil was a backward trend.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iJFfLlFfhJfirbpaflXKVYjODuPg
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Or Israel:

On this morning, the streets teem with women herding their children to school in the modest garb and head-coverings befitting their religious beliefs. For years, Sarah walked among them similarly dressed, but today a dark cloth is secured across her face, hiding everything save her eyes. It resembles the head-to-toe covering that is associated with religious Muslim women in the Gulf States.

“People in cars driving by often stop and stare. Some people are rude — they shout things at me because they think I am Arab,” said Sarah (not her real name).

Sarah is part of a budding movement of about 100 Jewish women in this city who have begun covering their bodies. Some cover just their hair and neck; others wrap their entire face, save their eyes, with the loose cloth. They call their head-covering a sal, refusing to acknowledge the resemblance to its Muslim twin, the hijab.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3499122.ece
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In fact, I would liken the women wanting to wear a veil in the UK with those not wanting to wear one in Iran and feeling forced or pressured by their respective societies in being asked to conform.

My personal opinion is women should dress as they please.
 
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S.A.M. said:
because you seem to think that Iranian women by and large do not want to wear the veil.
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I don't recall saying anything that would support such a characterization. And so it looks an awful lot like you are trying to pigeonhole me into some canned argument about cultural ignorance. This being your standard MO, after all.

And it is strange that you all insist that Iranian women do want to wear the veil, despite various protests to the contrary, and the absence of freedom for them to express their true desires on the issue. Likewise, the implication that the law is somehow okay, because it only oppresses a minority of Iranian women.

There is no question that considerable numbers of Iranian women do not want to be forced to wear the veil, including many who would still wear it freely. This is not about what people want to wear, but how people don't want to be subject to roving gangs of fundamentalist thugs.

If they all want to wear the veil, then why are the nasty morality police necessary in the first place?

And, again, even if every single Iranian woman was adamant about wanting to wear a veil, it would still be wrong to force them to do so.

S.A.M. said:
I come from Mumbai, a progressive city where given the choice, many Muslim women wear the hijab as well.
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And I have repeatedly described meeting many such women in the progressive city where I live, in which women are given the choice.

I also meet many more that choose not to.

The fact remains that women in Iran have no such choice.

S.A.M. said:
In fact, I would liken the women wanting to wear a veil in the UK with those not wanting to wear one in Iran and feeling forced or pressured by their respective societies in being asked to conform.
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Sure, except for the part where women in Iran who don't comply, get arrested and publicly brutalized for it.

S.A.M. said:
My personal opinion is women should dress as they please.
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Then why do you keep picking away at me, when I argue exactly that? Iran is most emphatically not allowing women to dress as they please.
 
Arsalan said:
And yet Quad and others fail to acknowledge that the Iranian society, this includes their women, wants the laws to be like that. It is incomprehensible to them that women actually want to wear a veil or whatever it is that goes with the region.
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The racists in the southern united states used to use nearly identical reasoning to say that everyone was happy with the way things were in the segregated south, and that what troubles there were had been caused by northern troublemakers.
 
Except of course, we're talking about the opinions of women here. Not the massuhs.


"Western-ideology feminists (in the East and the West) have dominated the discourse on the veil, viewing it as an aspect of patriarchies and a sign of women's backwardness, subordination and oppression. This uni-dimensional approach narrows the study of the veil ... and leads to a distorted view of a complex cultural phenomenon," she writes.

In the Arabic-speaking world, "veil" has no single-word translation, explains El Guindi. More than a hundred terms exist to refer to the diverse articles of women's clothing that vary by body part and region. Furthermore, she says, modest dress is a way of life for observant Islamic men, and male veiling -- as a symbol of masculinity and virility -- is also present in various parts of the Middle East and Africa.

For women, El Guindi explains, veiling in contemporary Arab culture fulfills numerous social and religious functions. Depending on region and cultural context, veiling can signify privacy, kinship, status, power, autonomy, and/or political resistance.

Drawing on her own fieldwork, an extensive bibliography, and her analysis of religious texts -- the Qur'an (the holy book of Islam), Hadith (the prophetic narratives), and Tafsir (the Islamic exegesis) -- El Guindi argues, in particular, for the "centrality of the cultural notion of privacy" in veiling.

http://www.alternet.org/story/14826/the_veil:_resistance_or_repression/
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quadraphonics said:
Except for the ones who don't.

I don't have much problem with women wanting to wear veils or anything else. But I don't believe that anything like a majority of Iranian women - including the ones who like wearing a veil - want to be forced to wear veils by a Morality Police.
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Small minority who dont. Unfortunately for them it is the majority of people in a society who decide what should be allowed and what shouldnt.

That men might, in large numbers, support discrimination against women is, of course, exactly at the heart of the objection.
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Youll find that women are far more protective of the right to wear a veil or burka than men are.

What is incomprehensible to me that women would want to be forced to wear a veil by the state. Not that I don't see that certain of them do want that, but they typically have pretty serious compounding issues.
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The state, or the judiciary, since there is a separation of powers here, has to listen to the people and if the people want a certain societal norm and or value to become, then the judiciary ponders it and then decides what should happen. Its not up to me or you to say that they are being forced.
 
Repo Man said:
The racists in the southern united states used to use nearly identical reasoning to say that everyone was happy with the way things were in the segregated south, and that what troubles there were had been caused by northern troublemakers.
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Except we are talking about a whole country agreeing on certain principles here, not just a few states with a separatist agenda. Besides, women are far more protective and aggressive in this issue than men are. I have seen this personally through my own family. No matter how hot it is, no matter where they go, the women in my family insist on wearing a veil or whatever coverup they find convenient and or beautiful.
 
Arsalan said:
Youll find that women are far more protective of the right to wear a veil or burka than men are.
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"You'll find" sounds like a statement of fact. Where will we find this?

Moreover, nobody is denying that women should have the right to wear whatever they want, just that they shouldn't be forced to by social pressure or by archaic laws.

Arsalan said:
Its not up to me or you to say that they are being forced.
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Actually, it is, since we know that they are forced, by law and by decency police.

~String
 
superstring01 said:
A bit more recent, just one year after the first crack down...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm

Look. Are we seriously debating about weather Iran allows women to dress how they want? Are you seriously positing this notion?

~String
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No. There are strict dress codes "in principle". And yes there are "ultra orthodox" groups that take it upon themselves to police lax and improper clothing styles. And yes, much of this is based on Sharia.

What I am pointing out, is a. that in practice, in everyday life, the dress code is actually quite relaxed, and b. the woman really don`t have major issues with dress requirements.

Your point that freedom of dress/expression should be up to the individual is reasonable and valid.
 
superstring01 said:
Well, duh. Nobody isn't saying it ain't the law, but that it just shouldn't be.

In typical SAM MO, you're attempting to distract.

~String
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Thats just it: its not up to us to decide what shouldnt be. Dress codes can be found all over the world and they are usually what society deems to be acceptable. Dress codes in Africa are different, dress codes in China and Japan are different, dress codes in Europe are different and they all comply with what the society at large finds acceptable. I dont agree with arresting people for not wearing a veil, but then again, Im not an Iranian and I have no say in how the country should be run. If the people want the law to be changed, they can ask the judiciary there to look at it. If society wants it, it will change. If they dont, the laws the law.
 
Arsalan said:
Except we are talking about a whole country agreeing on certain principles here, not just a few states with a separatist agenda.
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Except for the women who disagree. But no, everyone is happy with the status quo, just as the nigras (as my southern grandmother used to call them) were happy with the way things were in the south until that uppity MLK and other troublemakers stirred things up.

Besides, women are far more protective and aggressive in this issue than men are. I have seen this personally through my own family. No matter how hot it is, no matter where they go, the women in my family insist on wearing a veil or whatever coverup they find convenient and or beautiful.
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For the umpteenth time - that's fine if they so choose. That is a very different matter than having laws requiring them to.
 
Arsalan said:
Thats just it: its not up to us to decide what shouldnt be. Dress codes can be found all over the world and they are usually what society deems to be acceptable. Dress codes in Africa are different, dress codes in China and Japan are different, dress codes in Europe are different and they all comply with what the society at large finds acceptable. I dont agree with arresting people for not wearing a veil, but then again, Im not an Iranian and I have no say in how the country should be run. If the people want the law to be changed, they can ask the judiciary there to look at it. If society wants it, it will change. If they dont, the laws the law.
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Appeal to tradition. There are stupid laws all over the world, and I'm certainly not excluding the country I live in. I have the right to point out how I like how things are done better in some places than in other places. Cultural relativism is fine, but it doesn't give people license to oppress others, and then shrug their shoulders and say "That's just how we do things here."
 
starwdog said:
What I am pointing out, is a. that in practice, in everyday life, the dress code is actually quite relaxed, and b. the woman really don`t have major issues with dress requirements.
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That's almost always true of governmental and familial oppression and its cultures, in daily life.

People adjust. They are raised to it. They don't spend their lives fighting their whole society, and some of them prefer the oppressive setup and would choose it anyway.
arsalan said:
I dont agree with arresting people for not wearing a veil, but then again, Im not an Iranian and I have no say in how the country should be run. If the people want the law to be changed, they can ask the judiciary there to look at it. If society wants it, it will change. If they dont, the laws the law.
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Whatever. But the situation is misogynistic and oppressive on the part of the State. We can at least agree on the description of the physical reality, eh?
SAM said:
Except of course, we're talking about the opinions of women here. Not the massuhs.
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We are talking about the laws of the massuhs, not the women.
SAM said:
because you seem to think that Iranian women by and large do not want to wear the veil.
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That general type of comment is based on a profound misunderstanding of feminist thought, as it has permeated Western culture.

That a majority of women prefer to wear such clothing regardless of circumstance reveals the nature of the culture as obviously as a dog pacing the boundaries of its master's unfenced yard does. We see Muslim women wearing those outfits in Minnesota, where they are unsuited to the climate and circumstances, for example. We see Muslim women swimming in them.
 
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