Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

[quadraphonics]

Warmer than Florida?

Oh, Florida is probably warm enough. For some reason I thought you lived somewhere snowy. Not sure what the details of the laws are like there, though.

From wiki:

In the United States indecent exposure is defined by state law as exposure of the genitals and/or the female breast in a public place and may in some states require evidence of intent to shock, arouse or offend other persons. Public place is any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others.

The offense is variously titled "indecent exposure", "sexual misconduct", "public lewdness", or "public indecency". It is a criminal offense in all fifty states and is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment, and in some states a conviction results in having to register as a sex offender.

From farther down that exact same Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecent_exposure) :

Exemption for breastfeeding of infants

A majority of states exempt breastfeeding mothers from prosecution under these statutes. [3][4]

U.S. Public Law 106-58 Sec. 647. enacted in 1999, specifically provides that "a woman may breastfeed her child at any location in a Federal building or on Federal property, if the woman and her child are otherwise authorized to be present at the location."

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, I see. Pretty specific isn't it?

 

[quadraphonics]

Yeah, I see. Pretty specific isn't it?

Well, that is the specific situation in which the vast majority of women are interested in being able to bare their breasts in public, after all. Nudists are a fairly marginal phenomenon, but almost every woman in the world eventually ends up in situations where they are in public and have a baby they need to breastfeed.

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed.

Although Iranian women must observe strict rules of modesty, they have no difficulty breastfeeding in public places. ...
Source

Apparently about 12,000 women per year (Per YEAR!!! On average!) get arrested for breastfeeding in public in the United States. Another 30,000 women per year get arrested for being "topless" under various "indecency" laws across many states in the US.

http://www.cfcamerica.org/index.php...rrested-for-breastfeeding-in-public&Itemid=96

 

[quadraphonics]

Although Iranian women must observe strict rules of modesty, they have no difficulty breastfeeding in public places. ...

As the source describes, this is exactly because the clothes that women are forced to wear there cover both the breasts and the baby feeding on them. Iranian women are definitely NOT permitted to bare their breasts in public, for feeding purposes or otherwise.

And your second source is blatantly unreliable, without any citations of any kind (and displaying an obvious agenda). The fact remains that 43 states and several territories in the US have laws explicitly protecting breastfeeding in all public and private locations, and it is not illegal in any state.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

Some women have still been arrested, but this does not result in prosecution (since it isn't illegal). Rather, it results in embarassment for the police that arrested her for doing something perfectly legal.

 

[S.A.M.]

And the women arrested for indecent exposure?

 

[quadraphonics]

And the women arrested for indecent exposure?

I'm unable to find any credible reports of women being arrested for breastfeeding in the US. I have found reports of women being arrested for breatfeeding while talking on the phone and driving (the charge being child endangerment, not indecency), or while drunk. Meanwhile, I observe public breatfeeding fairly regularly.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Huh. Still no evidence? Nothing printed? Peer reviewed? Just more fluff? Right. Well, guess that proves everything!

Dawn, Jang, Arab News, Khaleej Times, The Iranian, etc. Do some research on the topic from regional papers. You will never find anything in the American press oligarchy.

You may want to also write to some officials from Middle Eastern universities and faculty for more information.

Just because your biased media has not exposed you to the truth, does not make it false.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm unable to find any credible reports of women being arrested for breastfeeding in the US. I have found reports of women being arrested for breatfeeding while talking on the phone and driving (the charge being child endangerment, not indecency), or while drunk. Meanwhile, I observe public breatfeeding fairly regularly.

Thats not what I asked.

I was referring to these incidents:

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- Police in Daytona Beach, Fla., arrested five topless women Sunday during a protest fighting for equal male-female rights to go without a shirt in the city, according to Local 6 News.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4280997/detail.html

 

[superstring01]

Dawn, Jang, Arab News, Khaleej Times, The Iranian, etc. Do some research on the topic from regional papers. You will never find anything in the American press oligarchy.

You may want to also write to some officials from Middle Eastern universities and faculty for more information.

Just because your biased media has not exposed you to the truth, does not make it false.

Posting the names of news sources does not count as providing proof. And to make it more idiotic, I'm now required to write professors with an ax to grind in order to prove your case FOR you!??? Huh? You made the claim and as a general rule on this forum, you're required to back it up with something concrete. That would be like me calling you a murderer and then demanding that YOU do the digging to prove otherwise. Maybe that's how things work where you're from, but in the rest of the world the person making the asinine claims is generally the person who must back it up.

I suspect the reason why we aren't seeing any from you is precisely because you are struggling to find any. If you're trying to make yourself more credible or to further your cause, I can't see how this helps.

~String

 

[quadraphonics]

Thats not what I asked.

I was referring to these incidents:


http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4280997/detail.html

Ah. Yeah, indecent exposure is illegal, and the statutes do discriminate against women in many states. I thought I had been clear that not everywhere in the US is as enlightened as places like NY that apply equal treatment (or Europe, where people can freely get naked in many public places).

I personally think indecent exposure laws, in general, are stupid and should be done away with (or at least made much narrower). That, however, is pretty unrealistic, but I am hopeful that a case such as this one will eventually make it to the Supreme Court and so at least get rid of discriminatory laws.

Basically, anything that results in more boobies in public has my support.

 

[superstring01]

Basically, anything that results in more boobies in public has my support.

Can't you see how this leads to moral decay? Seeing amalgamated cells and proteins formed together into layers of flesh is indecent and is leading to the destruction of society.

~String

 

[DiamondHearts]

Unfortunately, lack of knowledge of the political affairs of Muslim countries and of its news sources can only be corrected by honest research. The Western press barely ever gets the news correct, they are too connected to the government and its military-industrial complex.

Exposure to regional sources is the only cure for ignorance of the Muslim world. I can quote some sources, but none of them are in English. Well, good luck with your research.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah. Yeah, indecent exposure is illegal, and the statutes do discriminate against women in many states. I thought I had been clear that not everywhere in the US is as enlightened as places like NY that apply equal treatment (or Europe, where people can freely get naked in many public places).

I personally think indecent exposure laws, in general, are stupid and should be done away with (or at least made much narrower). That, however, is pretty unrealistic, but I am hopeful that a case such as this one will eventually make it to the Supreme Court and so at least get rid of discriminatory laws.

Basically, anything that results in more boobies in public has my support.

Can't you see how this leads to moral decay? Seeing amalgamated cells and proteins formed together into layers of flesh is indecent and is leading to the destruction of society.

~String

Everyone has different ideas of what constitutes as decency

14-Year-Old Topless Dancer Arrested


Akron, Ohio police raided the Playhouse bar last Friday.

Four dancers were arrested, including a 14 year old girl who was dancing topless at the time of the raid. The club was not licensed as a sexually oriented business.

The bar's owner and manager have been charged with illegal use of a minor. The girl has been placed in protective custody.

 

[quadraphonics]

Everyone has different ideas of what constitutes as decency

Indeed, most US decency laws are written in terms of "community standards of decency," and so differ from place to place and time to time. Very few of them criminalize specific (lacks of) clothing, or specific acts. Were everyone in the country to wake up tomorrow and decide they have no problem with topless women, it would then be, effectively, legal. Likewise, there was a day not so long ago when women could be (and were) arrested at the beach for wearing bathing suits that we now would consider quite conservative. But the standard changed, over time, and so - without any changes in the laws - wearing bikinis became legal.

But I don't see what any of that has with sexual exploitation of a minor in a bar. You'll note that the arrests weren't for public indecency (it was in private, in the first place), but other charges.

 

[Arsalan]

And yet Quad and others fail to acknowledge that the Iranian society, this includes their women, wants the laws to be like that. It is incomprehensible to them that women actually want to wear a veil or whatever it is that goes with the region.

 

[quadraphonics]

And yet Quad and others fail to acknowledge that teh Iranian scoety, this includes their women, wants the laws to be like that.

Except for the ones who don't.

I don't have much problem with women wanting to wear veils or anything else. But I don't believe that anything like a majority of Iranian women - including the ones who like wearing a veil - want to be forced to wear veils by a Morality Police.

That men might, in large numbers, support discrimination against women is, of course, exactly at the heart of the objection.

It is incomprehensible to them that women actually want to wear a veil or whatever it is that goes with the region.

Not at all. I have met many such women, and have no issue with them.

What is incomprehensible to me that women would want to be forced to wear a veil by the state. Not that I don't see that certain of them do want that, but they typically have pretty serious compounding issues.

 

[S.A.M.]

What do you think of the fact that second generation women in western countries whose parents did not veil have adopted the veil? Do you think they have "pretty serious compounding issues" too?

 

[DiamondHearts]

As long as I'm a Muslim I can make stupid statements and if an atheist challenges me on them, well, they are to be ignored. [/I]Great logic!

Except however, this is my political view and not my religious view. Somehow whenever there is a disagreement from Westerners with Muslims, it always has to fall to the level of insulting Islam. So Westerners tend to go to the very deepest of duplicity, manipulation, and outright lies to prove that Islam is somehow the problem, even when the issue has no relation with Islam.

My view that King Faisal, ZA Bhutto, and Gen Zia were assassinated by American agents are perfectly legitimate, regardless of what religion I espouse. All three leaders, themselves, stated in their speeches that if they are ever assassinated it will be from the hands of their enemies, namely the US. America was the only one to benefit from their deaths. Every since that time, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have been kept as US puppets. If you want proof of this, find some Middle Eastern resources concerning the issues. Regional media tend to be more accurate, rather than Western media who both have an agenda to espouse and are completely ignorant of the ground-realities of the region.

1964 Faisal became king and began a modernization program.

The 1973 Arab-Israeli War ( Yom Kippur) was between Israel and a coalition of Egypt and Syria.

1973 Saudi Arabia and Aramco began negotiations leading to Saudi control of the company.

1973 Saudi Arabia led an oil boycott by OPEC states in response to Western support of Israel. Oil prices quadrupled.

1975 King Faisal was assassinated.

Faisal was protected by an elite guard trained by a private econtractor selected by the United States Department of Defense.

http://www.answers.com/topic/faisal-of-saudi-arabia

Former US ambassador says Mossad may have knocked off Pakistani President in ‘88 over the fear of Pakistan Nuclear Program. He has also showed suspicion that elements of India’s Research and Analysis Wing and its equivalent of the CIA, along with Israeli Mossad may have played a part too.

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/cia-raw-and-mossad-hands-in-general-zia’s-assassination/

Former U.S. attorney general and Human rights activist, Ramsey Clark ...announced that the CIA may have been behind the Bhutto's ouster in a military coup even though he was a democratically elected President of Pakistan... CIA continued providing funds to support President General Mohammed Zia ul Haq, insuring that he stayed in power, as he was a staunch U.S. supporter, and had allowed the CIA to pour paramilitary support through Pakistan into Afghanistan. (Security Assistance Operation)

http://www.despardes.com/oscartango/120505-ramsey-bhutto.html

 

[quadraphonics]

What do you think of the fact that second generation women in western countries whose parents did not veil have adopted the veil? Do you think they have "pretty serious compounding issues" too?

In the first place, the numbers of such women are pretty small. They don't represent the majority of children of veil-shedders by any stretch. And I have yet to hear of any of them demanding to be forced to wear the veil. And, again, it's no skin off my back if somebody wants to wear a scarf on their head. It's when governments get into the business of forcing them to do so that a problem arises.

Why is it so difficult for you and DiamondHearts to distinguish between wanting to wear a veil, and being forced to do so by the state?