Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

[quadraphonics]

What ominous implications?

The presumption of speaking for an entire country's women; the obliviousness to the idea that women might desire to be financially independent (as opposed to second-earners for a family); the confusion of premise with conclusion; etc.

On the contrary, it is you who dont have evidence. My evidence would be most cases in Iran.

Well, then, it shouldn't be difficult for you to cite one such case, and illustrate how it backs your claims, no?

Meanwhile:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/world/middleeast/13iran.html?pagewanted=2

If all women in, say, England, want to wear clothes, why do we have decency laws in place?

Because not all women (or, more to the point, men) in England want to wear clothes. Why else? Have you never met a nudist before?

Also, there are plenty of places in the West where people are not required to wear clothes at all. Nude sunbathing is totally normal in public parks and beachs in many parts of Europe. Just last weekend, I attended a footrace in San Francisco in which numerous naked people took part, etc.

because most Western countries almost force them to. Want a job? Veil off. Education? Veil off.

Lies. I work with, and attended school with, many women (Iranian and otherwise) who wore a veil. It's not a big deal here (France and Turkey being different stories).

But I also work with, and attended school with, many more Iranian women who only wear a veil when compelled to (i.e., when visiting relatives back in Iran).

 

[quadraphonics]

Or maybe bash your head against a wall for several hours. That sure will help you think straight.

Well, now we're getting somewhere...

 

[superstring01]

If you believe the US does not actively eliminate its political opponents in the Muslim world, you are naive.

Uh. Who said that we didn't believe that. I just require proof when someone claims as specific event. It's like blaming the bad guy who bombed your city because an earthquake destroyed your home. Sure, the USA has done a lot of bad shit--which shit I think should stop--but that doesn't mean the USA assassinated these leaders. Any statement as such should require proof, which proof you've yet to furnish.

My proof for Z.A. Bhutto and Gen. Zia's assassinations are ISI and military statements.

Could you reference that source material, or are we supposed to take your word--again--as fact?

King Faisal's assassination, his very own family and his supporters.

Huh. Still no evidence? Nothing printed? Peer reviewed? Just more fluff? Right. Well, guess that proves everything!

Continue to live in your fairy land where America is perfect, the occupied and oppressed people of the Muslim world however will never forget the murder of their greatest leaders.

Nope. The USA is far, FAR from perfect. I've always thought that the best thing my nation could do is to get the hell out of the Mideast, stop pumping gajilions of dollars of weapons into Israel and just let the entire region start working things out for itself. It would go a long way to reparing our reputation and would go a long way towards some lasting peace in the region. I'm aware that the USA has assasinated leaders and meddled--to the detriment--of many nations and I think it's both sad and disgusting. So, please don't tell me what I think.

But, YOU, Mr. Diamond, are the one making statements about assasination without a shred of proof. So--as it were--put up or shut up.

Atheists telling me my views are conspiracy theories. LOL.

So, as long as I believe in a god, then you'd listen to my POV about your ridiculous and unfounded ideas. Never mind then. You do your religions more damage than anything the most Islam-hating person could ever do. As long as I'm a Muslim I can make stupid statements and if an atheist challenges me on them, well, they are to be ignored. Great logic!

Rejecting God is the greatest crime a being can do to to themselves.

Which god? Allah? Vishnu/Shiva? Christ? Yhwh? Ahura Mazda? Which one? They all can't be right. More importantly they were all invented, so by your logic, I can just invent one, declare it to be RIGHTEOUS, follow it methodically, and that will make me a moral person then.

Great logic!

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

But I also work with, and attended school with, many more Iranian women who only wear a veil when compelled to (i.e., when visiting relatives back in Iran).

Kinda like the nudists, eh?

 

[superstring01]

Mod Note: SAM, we aren't talking about the US government's issues when it comes to proof. Continued attempts to derail this conversation will result in your posts being deleted. This isn't about the USA. It's about another country. If you want to talk about the government of the USA and issues with how it's run, start another thread.

 

[S.A.M.]

But we can talk about Iran? Saudi Arabia? Afghanistan? Palestine? Pakistan? Did I miss any Muslim countries?

 

[quadraphonics]

Kinda like the nudists, eh?

Superficially, yes, in that they are oppressed in the name of protecting the sensitivities of others.

But oppression of women is a different thing. The nudists, male or female, are subject to the exact same laws as everyone else. That is quite different from a law that singles out specific groups of people for repression.

In certain US states, in contrast, public decency laws are gender-neutral. Which is to say that women, like men, are free to walk around bare-chested in public.

 

[S.A.M.]

Superficially, yes, in that they are oppressed in the name of protecting the sensitivities of others.

But oppression of women is a different thing. The nudists, male or female, are subject to the exact same laws as everyone else. That is quite different from a law that singles out specific groups of people for repression.

In certain US states, in contrast, public decency laws are gender-neutral. Which is to say that women, like men, are free to walk around bare-chested in public.

And how is this different in Iran? Men can walk around nude?

 

[superstring01]

But we can talk about Iran? Saudi Arabia? Afghanistan? Palestine? Pakistan? Did I miss any Muslim countries?

Right, because there aren't a million threads started by you and your friends on the evils of the West, the USA and Israel. Looks like we're at a parity.

Go find one of them. Better yet: START ONE.

As always, you miss the point. Diamond has posted a claim. He's required to back it up. With your usual style, you come clunking through, throwing around non sequirurs in an attempt to muddy the waters and distract from the truth.

Good for you. But you lose. I'll just delete your nonsense.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Right, because there aren't a million threads started by you and your friends on the evils of the West, the USA and Israel. Looks like we're at a parity.

Go find one of them. Better yet: START ONE.

As always, you miss the point. Diamond has posted a claim. He's required to back it up. With your usual style, you come clunking through, throwing around non sequirurs in an attempt to muddy the waters and distract from the truth.

Good for you. But you lose. I'll just delete your nonsense.

~String

Sure go ahead, its your forum. But you're discussing the US with Diamond and deleting my posts. I did not start this discussion. So its bias.

All I did was point out the irony of you asking Diamond to back up a claim.

 

[superstring01]

And how is this different in Iran? Men can walk around nude?

Men aren't required, by law and by social fears, to cover their heads. That's the issue.

~String

 

[superstring01]

Sure go ahead, its your forum. But you're discussing the US with Diamond and deleting my posts. I did not start this discussion. So its bias.

No. You attempted to bring up a total red herring ("blah blah blah, the USA") to distract away from what was said in a poorly veiled attempt to, as always, blame the USA for something it has nothing to do with.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Men aren't required, by law and by social fears, to cover their heads. That's the issue.

~String

And men aren't required by law in the west to wear a shirt.

No. You attempted to bring up a total red herring ("blah blah blah, the USA") to distract away from what was said in a poorly veiled attempt to, as always, blame the USA for something it has nothing to do with.

~String

No, I was pointing out the irony of needing proof when claims are made.

 

[quadraphonics]

And how is this different in Iran? Men can walk around nude?

In Iran, men can walk around with their heads uncovered, but women cannot.

In the US, both men and women can walk around bare-chested, at least in the more enlightened places.

 

[S.A.M.]

In Iran, men can walk around with their heads uncovered, but women cannot.

In the US, both men and women can walk around bare-chested, at least in the more enlightened places.

And these are?

 

[superstring01]

And men aren't required by law in the west to wear a shirt.

I'm sorry, were we talking about the west? I though we were talking about the Mideast. The paragon of virtue, peace and love!

More importantly, I would invite you to find any group of women that accounts for even 1/2 of 1% of the population of ANY nation who feels oppressed by having to cover their chest.

Having to cover tits is a far cry from having to cover one's face: the very essence of human recognition and identity.

No, I was pointing out the irony of needing proof when claims are made.

Since I am not the USA and cannot speak for it (and would obviously change a great deal of its behavior if I could), and Diamond is himself and is speaking on his behalf it stands to reason that I should hold him accountable for his statements of fact. When I'm president and/or dictator for life of the USA, then feel free to bring up all the horrible things that my nation does. I'm not defending it. In fact, I think you are quite aware of how disgusted I am by a great number of the things my country does (which I've oft mentioned).

Distracting attention from his moronic behavior by bringing up government entities that barely represent me is equally moronic.

~String

 

[quadraphonics]

And these are?

New York, for one. I'm sure there are others in the US, but don't recall offhand, and I'm given to understand it's also perfectly legal almost everywhere in Europe. Similarly, it's legal to breastfeed in public almost everywhere in the US.

In much of Europe, both genders are free to swim and sunbathe completely nude in public parks and beaches. Not separate nudist beaches and parks, but the regular ones everyone uses. Go take a bike ride through, say, the Englischer Garten in Munich on a hot summer day if you don't believe.

 

[S.A.M.]

New York, for one. I'm sure there are others in the US, but don't recall offhand.

In much of Europe, both genders are free to swim and sunbathe completely nude in public parks and beaches. Not separate nudist beaches and parks, but the regular ones everyone uses.

I'll take your word for it. Although in five years I haven't once seen a bare chested woman. I have heard of women getting thrown out of banks and malls and courts and restaurants for wearing a scarf though. There have also been issues over women breastfeeding in public or showing breasts with ornaments on television.

 

[quadraphonics]

I'll take your word for it. Although in five years I haven't once seen a bare chested woman.

Indeed, most women aren't interested in walking around bare-chested. But they won't be arrested for doing so, in many places (particularly Europe).

But if that's the sort of thing you're interested in seeing, perhaps you should visit some warmer climates.

I have heard of women getting thrown out of banks and malls and courts and restaurants for wearing a scarf though.

I haven't. I have heard of places where your face needs to be visible in your driver's license photo, but booting someone from a bank or mall or restaurant over a scarf is blatantly unconstitutional, and I encourage anyone so discriminated against to contact the ACLU and pursue legal recourse.

There have also been issues over women breastfeeding in public or showing breasts with ornaments on television.

Again, public breastfeeding is legal and accepted almost everywhere. I have seen it countless times.

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed, most women aren't interested in walking around bare-chested. But they won't be arrested for doing so, in many places (particularly Europe).

But if that's the sort of thing you're interested in seeing, perhaps you should visit some warmer climates.

Warmer than Florida?

I haven't. I have heard of places where your face needs to be visible in your driver's license photo, but booting someone from a bank or mall or restaurant over a scarf is blatantly unconstitutional, and I encourage anyone so discriminated against to contact the ACLU and pursue legal recourse.

Of course.

Again, public breastfeeding is legal and accepted almost everywhere. I have seen it countless times.

From wiki:

In the United States indecent exposure is defined by state law as exposure of the genitals and/or the female breast in a public place and may in some states require evidence of intent to shock, arouse or offend other persons. Public place is any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others.

The offense is variously titled "indecent exposure", "sexual misconduct", "public lewdness", or "public indecency". It is a criminal offense in all fifty states and is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment, and in some states a conviction results in having to register as a sex offender.