Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

[DiamondHearts]

Glad to see that Kuwait finally caught up with Bangladesh, Pakistan, Jordan, and the rest of the 50 Muslim countries in the Muslim world. The news is a bit late, you seemed to have missed a number of prior examples. Also, women can hold high government positions in Egypt and Iran. I don't know about Sudan, I'll have to look it up.

This thread just seems like a shot against Muslims.

 

[Arsalan]

We all choose our relevant comparisons. If yours are the dregs of the countries in Africa and South America, to compare with such countries as Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, etc, so be it. Let's hear a little less about the glory that is Islamic tradition and culture in the future, eh? These countries have been sitting on the crossroads of world civilization for two thousand years, with every cultural advantage of circumstance and history, and your chosen comparisons are with the Belgian Congo and Guatemala?

My point is to get people that advocate this to understand that the Christian world or Western world does not just include the USA or the top tiers in Europe, but every other country that identifies itself as that or can be categorised accordingly. However, if we were to turn to the USA and even Europe, we would see blatant discrimination, forced prostitution and slavery, drugs, abuse of power in the entertainment business, degrading pay scale, barred from certain areas and a lot more. Not all of those countries you name are guilty of forcing women to do something or behave a certain way. If the women wished to make changes, they would. And no, that isnt impossible for them. Even right now, we have lots of womens rights groups in Saudiland, trying to change certain things because they feel its right.

It always amazes me that someone living in a country where women are raped, beaten, murdered, treated like slaves and brood mares every single day, has the audacity to label an entire group of countries one knows nothing about, yet because it is popular to do so, one does.

 

[Arsalan]

Just as importantly, the laws in Saudi Arabia are carried out despite US concerncs about female equality. Wahabbis regularly thumb their noses at the USA (and the west in general) in their treatment of women. Even without American support, there is no evidence that things would improve for women. The vast majority of the population are Wahhabis and all evidence shows that were the monarchy to fall, you'd just have another form of female oppressing Sharia instated there, just under a religious dictatorship in lieu of a hereditary one.

~String

Provide the evidence.

 

[S.A.M.]

All of the states you list are "US-supported," (and the last one is a dictatorship), so it seems that this is not the feature that differentiates them from, say, Saudi Arabia. For that matter, Morocco isn't far from being a dictatorship either.

Likewise, the laws string cited exist in Iran, which is hardly US-supported.

Iran is a special case, like Afghanistan it was intolerable to the Americans when they were educating women and had a progressive democracy. Its also been under severe sanctions since the 1980s.

Just as importantly, the laws in Saudi Arabia are carried out despite US concerncs about female equality.

~String

US concerns about female equality are reflected in their actions e.g. the UN convention on the rights of women.

"I was disappointed to watch the United States reverse itself on the historic Beijing agreement," added Charlotte Bunch, Executive Director of the Center for Women's Global Leadership at Rutgers University. "Many of us have devoted decades of our lives working with women around the world on this and other issues. Until the Bush Administration, the United States has provided leadership on many women's rights issues. Fortunately, not one country supported the direction of this isolationist move," she added.


Yesterday in New York, the United States was the only one of 42 countries at the UN Commission on the Status of Women meeting to reject a resolution on the release of women and children hostages because it contained language on reaffirming the Beijing Platform. The resolution condemned violent acts as the consequences of hostage taking, in particular, torture, murder, rape, slavery, and trafficking in women and children. It calls for the immediate release of women and children taken hostage in armed conflict.

In Santiago, Chile, at a regional planning meeting of the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC), the United States was the only one of 38 country delegations to oppose a declaration of support for the International Consensus on Population and Development (ICPD) adopted in Cairo in 1994.

The historic ICPD Programme of Action rejected quotas and demographic targets, agreeing instead on the need to invest in meeting the needs of individuals for education, reproductive health care and services, especially for women. In 1994, the United States was a leader in drafting the consensus, but the Bush administration has sought to recast the document in ideological terms, eliminating all references to "reproductive health services" and "condoms" and asserting parental control over all adolescent decision-making regardless of the family situation.

http://www.choike.org/nuevo_eng/informes/1757.html

 

[quadraphonics]

It always amazes me that someone living in a country where women are raped, beaten, murdered, treated like slaves and brood mares every single day, has the audacity to label an entire group of countries one knows nothing about,

Sorry, are you talking about yourself here?

 

[S.A.M.]

Where do you think he lives?

 

[Arsalan]

Sorry, are you talking about yourself here?

No, im talking about people living in non-Muslim countries, in the West especially, trying to label and or criticize an entire group of countries they know nothing about.

 

[quadraphonics]

Iran is a special case, like Afghanistan it was intolerable to the Americans when they were educating women and had a progressive democracy.

When was that, exactly? These days, the Iranian government we find so intolerable is neither progressive nor democratic, and treats women poorly.

Likewise, your persistent conflation of the US foreign policy establishment with "the Americans" (a usage I rarely hear outside of Islamic terrorist propaganda, incidentally) is pretty troubling, as far as indicators of racist ideology go.

Its also been under severe sanctions since the 1980s.

And how does that compell them to oppress their women?

It would behoove you to at least apply a basic relevance smell-check before posting responses, especially if you're going to be tenacious about never admitting error.

 

[Arsalan]

Iran is a special case, like Afghanistan it was intolerable to the Americans when they were educating women and had a progressive democracy. Its also been under severe sanctions since the 1980s.

Theres another country, closer to the US, which is intolerable to them because, among other things, women are being educated. It has also been under severe sanctions for ages

 

[S.A.M.]

When was that, exactly? These days, the Iranian government we find so intolerable is neither progressive nor democratic, and treats women poorly.

Likewise, your persistent conflation of the US foreign policy establishment with "the Americans" (a usage I rarely hear outside of Islamic terrorist propaganda, incidentally) is pretty troubling, as far as indicators of racist ideology go.



And how does that compell them to oppress their women?

It would behoove you to at least apply a basic relevance smell-check before posting responses, especially if you're going to be tenacious about never admitting error.

It was before the days of US interventions in Iran, during a time when Iranians had the choice of their own government. Before the CIA trained Savak assassinated anyone who opposed the autocratic Shah or the Ayatollahs took over and adopted the Savama.

You can see similar parallels with Afghanistan. Killing off or driving off the educated, destroying the infrastructure and economy and oppression which leads to civil unrest.

 

[Arsalan]

When was that, exactly? These days, the Iranian government we find so intolerable is neither progressive nor democratic, and treats women poorly.

Ah, so thats why women get a good education, jobs etc. I get it now.

Likewise, your persistent conflation of the US foreign policy establishment with "the Americans" (a usage I rarely hear outside of Islamic terrorist propaganda, incidentally) is pretty troubling, as far as indicators of racist ideology go.

Socialist Iran treated women good ---> Kill Mossadeq, install dictator

Communists treated women good in Afghaistan ---> Fund and arm Al Qaeda to kill them

Unfortunately for the US, that is how US foreign policy is seen around the world. It may be right or wrong, but if the US has any intention of changing this view, it has a lot of work to do. Its constant asskissing of the Saudis, mass murderers and traitors, is just another US foreign policy that adds to the already negative sentiments regarding the US around the world and in some Muslim countries.

 

[otheadp]

Hopefully the phenomenon of women being in parliament and more involved in politics in general will become more and more prevalent so that in 10 years there will be considered as "nothing special", so that from that point there can be even more reform, like letting women have actual power in governance.

 

[Arsalan]

Hopefully the phenomenon of women being in parliament and more involved in politics in general will become more and more prevalent so that in 10 years there will be considered as "nothing special", so that from that point there can be even more reform, like letting women have actual power in governance.

For some reason this reminded me of Palin and why she was chosen

 

[DiamondHearts]

When was that, exactly? These days, the Iranian government we find so intolerable is neither progressive nor democratic, and treats women poorly.

You obviously have never been to Iran. Muslim women in Iran have much more rights than Muslim women in America. They can actually get driver licenses if they wear niqab, they aren't discriminated in employment, universities, or kicked out of courts (i.e. search Keith Rollins) for wearing their Islamic dress. Muslim women in Iran have the right to own property, divorce, and all the rights according to women in the West and more. Iran actually has women-only police squads and army troops, you can search for articles about this issue.

This negativity surrounding Iran is merely a ruse to make Americans hate Iran and Iranian people, thus making it acceptable to invade them and occupy their territory. The propaganda can be traced to Israel's expansionist ambitions in the Muslim world.

This is also the reason for increasingly negative coverage of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. Look what they are doing in Pakistan now with 100 civilians dying from US drone attacks a month, and it is still fully supported by the ignorant American populace. This shows the effect a media oligarchy can have on a country.

Hopefully the phenomenon of women being in parliament and more involved in politics in general will become more and more prevalent so that in 10 years there will be considered as "nothing special", so that from that point there can be even more reform, like letting women have actual power in governance.

Great, one thing which can be done is actually letting Muslim men and women in Palestine have their own state. Economically boycotting and marginalizing millions of Palestinian women should be the first thing to be abolished. If one is the agent of women's oppression, he should first remove his oppression before proceeding to recommend to others some further action.

 

[otheadp]

Great, one thing which can be done is actually letting Muslim men and women in Palestine have their own state. Economically boycotting and marginalizing millions of Palestinian women should be the first thing to be abolished. If one is the agent of women's oppression, he should first remove his oppression before proceeding to recommend to others some further action.

At the risk of throwing this thread to hell, I'll reply anyway. This is all in the hands of the "Palestinians" themselves. You should write a letter to Abu Mazen and Khaled Mash'al to help institute feminist reforms in "Palestinian" society.

P.s., I'm not talking about this kind of progress.

 

[Arsalan]

At the risk of throwing this thread to hell, I'll reply anyway. This is all in the hands of the "Palestinians" themselves. You should write a letter to Abu Mazen and Khaled Mash'al to help institute feminist reforms in "Palestinian" society.

P.s., I'm not talking about this kind of progress.

Kind of hard to gauge what is happening when your being bombed and killed on a regular basis by, what can be described as, your own government, since it is alleged to be Israeli land by... well, Israel

 

[quadraphonics]

It was before the days of US interventions in Iran, during a time when Iranians had the choice of their own government. Before the CIA trained Savak assassinated anyone who opposed the autocratic Shah or the Ayatollahs took over and adopted the Savama.

Prior to US intervention in Iran (which began in WWII), it had been an absolute monarchy for centuries. Iranians, outside of a tiny power elite, did not have any say in this arrangement.

You can see similar parallels with Afghanistan. Killing off or driving off the educated, destroying the infrastructure and economy and oppression which leads to civil unrest.

It was Russia, and then the warlords and Pakistan, that accomplished those tasks in Afghanistan. By the time we got there, the educated were already in their graves or our cities, the infrastructure and economy nonexistant, the governance oppressive, etc.

 

[quadraphonics]

You obviously have never been to Iran.

You obviously have some interest in misrepresenting the status of women's rights in Iran, as well as many other aspects of any region you identify as Muslim.

 

[otheadp]

Kind of hard to gauge what is happening when your being bombed and killed on a regular basis by, what can be described as, your own government, since it is alleged to be Israeli land by... well, Israel

Kind of hard to think straight when you're being bombarded with bullshit about alleged "daily bombings" and imaginary peoples calling themselves "Palestinians"...

 

[S.A.M.]

Prior to US intervention in Iran (which began in WWII), it had been an absolute monarchy for centuries. Iranians, outside of a tiny power elite, did not have any say in this arrangement.

Mossadegh was not elected by the British. Iran was the first of the Middle Eastern states to adopt a parliament in 1905.

It was Russia, and then the warlords and Pakistan, that accomplished those tasks in Afghanistan. By the time we got there, the educated were already in their graves or our cities, the infrastructure and economy nonexistant, the governance oppressive, etc.

The 2 billion in AK-47 had no role at all, and neither did the abandonment of Afghanistan once they had been used to fight the proxy war. As Zbigniew Brzezinski said, whats a few pissed off Muslims?