Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

[Arsalan]

No I don't.

The point I'm making is that Islamic societies still, in general, treat women as less than men and that's its good to see one making some progress on the issue.

~String

No, they dont. Not anymore than other societies. Thats my point.

 

[S.A.M.]

Wow, you named women from ruling class families. As YOU pointed out long ago, in many societies, people vote for ruling blocks who are controlled by specific families.

So there are no women in the ruling classes of American politics?

Just the same, just becaus the USA has elected a [half] black man as president, doesn't negate the fact that there is still a great deal of racism in the USA.

Never would have guessed it.

I would have thought you'd recognize this point.

~String

Yeah, funny innit? Kinda like women I met in the Middle East, who thought women in the west treated themselves like collaterally damaged pieces of meat. What they call women without honor.

I guess perspective matters. Some women think taking off their clothes is liberation, others believe that a women would have to be pretty desperate to use their bodies to get anything done.

 

[superstring01]

So there are no women in the ruling classes of American politics?

Indeed. But we aren't discussing the HUGE problems that the USA has. We're talking about the progress of one Islamic state and

Yeah, funny innit? Kinda like women I met in the Middle East, who thought women in the west treated themselves like collaterally damaged pieces of meat. What they call women without honor.

I guess perspective matters. Some women think taking off their clothes is liberation, others believe that a women would have to be pretty desperate to use their bodies to get anything done.

Yeah, but we aren't talking about that. We're talking about the political system that is set up that permits women to be treated as second class citizens.

There are plenty of other threads to discuss the issues with the west.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed. But we aren't discussing the HUGE problems that the USA has. We're talking about the progress of one Islamic state and



Yeah, but we aren't talking about that. We're talking about the political system that is set up that permits women to be treated as second class citizens.

There are plenty of other threads to discuss the issues with the west.

~String

It makes as much sense to explain Middle Eastern women to western society as it does to explain to Middle Eastern women that bulimia and botox really does not mean that western women define themselves only by their poor body image issues.

 

[StrawDog]

No. We're not. We're talking about oppression of women, and a society finally beginning to treat women with the respect they deserve.

In the "actual" culture, of course woman are not "oppressed" and are treated with the respect that not only do they deserve, but is their "right" in the eyes of Muslim society. Looking in from the outside, and judging from a Western "normative" perspective, one does not have any idea of what daily life in Muslim society is like. In the billions of average Muslim lives, there is no wife beatings, no stone throwing, no "insert false perception here". The snippets that the Western media so love to print are equal to Mormon cultish behavior, and in NO way a reflection of mainstream practice.

You're attempting to derail the conversation. Nobody on this thread has denied Western imperialism or wrongful US intervention. So, stop distracting. We're attempting to discuss the pleasing progress that one society has shown in the treatment of HALF of its population.

I apologize if perceived as derailing, but once again, your perception is inaccurate. It is however understandable judging by the media fetish against the "poor Muslim woman" with no voice or rights. Many, many Muslim families are matriarchal in nature.

Yes it is. I can't, for the life of me, understand why it's so evil to discriminate against races (the USA & Europe had embargoes against South Africa for such a deal), but find it somehow less evil to systematically treat women like property. It's just as, if not more, despicable.

Once again, this has no bearing on actual reality. Woman have a role in Muslim society, and they happily accept that role. Mother, friend and partner. Long term fidelity and relationships are the NORM. Where this idea that woman are treated like property comes from G-d only knows. Its a "different" culture.

Duh. Isn't that the point we're making: Muslim societies do not hold female's rights to be of significant enough value to treat them with the same respect as they do men.

Of course they do. But not necessarily in the "Western" sense.

Two thoughts: (1) you're wrong. In Iran and Afghanistan for example, in the past decade females have protested in great numbers to make inroads into previously male dominated areas. So, you're either blatantly deceiving or just ignorant of world events. (2) the women who avoid such activity generally do so due to brain washing from birth coupled with family and societal pressures, if not outright violence altogether.

1. Part of the US onslaught on Muslim society is the destabilization of traditional family values. Hence the protests.
2. Iran can certainly improve on woman's rights.

Nothing, from what I have heard from the few Muslims I know, prohibits treating women with respect, giving them the right to vote or restricts them from holding government office. Leave it to you to miss the point entirely and somehow equate oppression of women with respect for family life.

Woman are not restricted from holding government office. Its a wider multi cultural societal phenomena. The handful of senior female US government officials are not exactly a shining reflection of female empowerment.

StrawDog, you miss the point, and out of some mutant obsession, bring up things that have absolutely no connection.

Apologies for that.

Giving women rights, does not equate turning them into "Miss California". Although, since you bring the point up, it isn't up to men to herd women in and out of specific pursuits, including entering beauty pageants if they so desire.

No, but it reflects societal values and peer pressure. IMHO a vacuous society that attempts to demonize other (Muslim) societies that do not promote these "freedoms"?

Allowing women to run for office, and electing them fairly, or even becoming "Miss Baghdad" does not necessarily lead to moral decay.

Of course they can run for office and election. Its clearly on the record.

Decadence does. So does institutionalized discrimination. The same decadence that has cycled in and out of every Earthly society since the beginning of time.

Of course. What we see is another cycle, and no learning's from history whatsoever.

 

[John99]

In the "actual" culture, of course woman are not "oppressed" and are treated with the respect that not only do they deserve, but is their "right" in the eyes of Muslim society. Looking in from the outside, and judging from a Western "normative" perspective, one does not have any idea of what daily life in Muslim society is like. In the billions of average Muslim lives, there is no wife beatings, no stone throwing, no "insert false perception here". The snippets that the Western media so love to print are equal to Mormon cultish behavior, and in NO way a reflection of mainstream practice.

you should take your own advice then.

 

[iceaura]

So there are no women in the ruling classes of American politics?

The women from them who gain power from their access don't count, in estimating the status of women in American society. Just like you don't count the women who inherited their husband's stock and corporate access, when discussing women's status in the corporate world.
- - - -

Yeah, funny innit? Kinda like women I met in the Middle East, who thought women in the west treated themselves like collaterally damaged pieces of meat. What they call women without honor.

I guess perspective matters. Some women think taking off their clothes is liberation, others believe that a women would have to be pretty desperate to use their bodies to get anything done.

That's why you look at demography and nutrition and educational levels and so forth. So you don't fool yourself by setting it up Fox News fashion, as a comparison of equally empty and invalid opinions without a basis in reality.

Women die too soon, grow up illiterate too often, are too short and missing too many teeth and too afflicted with early onset joint and skeletal problems, are too overtly and visibly restricted even in simple physical mobility by law and custom, in Islamic countries generally.

No, they dont. Not anymore than other societies. Thats my point.

We all choose our relevant comparisons. If yours are the dregs of the countries in Africa and South America, to compare with such countries as Kuwait, Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, etc, so be it. Let's hear a little less about the glory that is Islamic tradition and culture in the future, eh? These countries have been sitting on the crossroads of world civilization for two thousand years, with every cultural advantage of circumstance and history, and your chosen comparisons are with the Belgian Congo and Guatemala?

 

[S.A.M.]

That's why you look at demography and nutrition and educational levels and so forth. So you don't fool yourself by setting it up Fox News fashion, as a comparison of equally empty and invalid opinions without a basis in reality.

Women die too soon, grow up illiterate too often, are too short and missing too many teeth and too afflicted with early onset joint and skeletal problems, are too overtly and visibly restricted even in simple physical mobility by law and custom, in Islamic countries generally.

Women having vitamin D deficiency from wearing too many clothes is less oppressive than women having malformed teeth due to puking out their guts. In general, women in Muslim countries are more assertive and confident than their western counterparts. The families are more matriarchial than patriarchial.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Women having vitamin D deficiency from wearing too many clothes is less oppressive than women having malformed teeth due to puking out their guts. In general, women in Muslim countries are more assertive and confident than their western counterparts. The families are more matriarchial than patriarchial.

SAM if you weren't in India, but in a Muslim country, and society would you have the freedom to be on a computer interacting with strange men?

I wonder about if you were in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, under the Taliban?

 

[S.A.M.]

I was in Saudi Arabia for almost 5 years and had a team of 10+ men working for me. Including Saudis. I had no problems at all.

If there are problems with government oppression, well thats a continuous theme with US supported right wing dictators.

The Taliban are Afghanis. They do not live in Iran, Yemen or Saudi Arabia. Kinda like the British do not live in the Soviet Union.

 

[superstring01]

Women having vitamin D deficiency from wearing too many clothes is less oppressive than women having malformed teeth due to puking out their guts.

Right, because once again you missed the point and bring up a total non sequitur. How many women have eating disorders in the western world when compared with the same proporation of women in the Mideast who can't even opt out of covering their faces if they wanted to, are forced into marriage, cannot legally drive a car or be considered equally for promotions in corporate or government jobs.

In general, women in Muslim countries are more assertive and confident than their western counterparts. The families are more matriarchial than patriarchial.

Well, we'll just have to take your word for that. Doesn't seem to have done them well under the Taliban, the Ayatollah and other misogynistic societies.

~String

 

[superstring01]

I was in Saudi Arabia for almost 5 years and had a team of 10+ men working for me. Including Saudis. I had no problems at all.

Right. I don't believe you. Even the most pro-Saudi news sources show a society where women are treated as second class. How many cars did you get to drive in the Kingdom? Could you wear a bathing suit at the beach? If you were a citizen, could you vote or even run publicly for government office? Can you go to Mecca unaccompanied by a male chaperon?

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Right. I don't believe you. Even the most pro-Saudi news sources show a society where women are treated as second class. How many cars did you get to drive in the Kingdom? Could you wear a bathing suit at the beach? If you were a citizen, could you vote or even run publicly for government office? Can you go to Mecca unaccompanied by a male chaperon?

~String

I don't drive. So it does not matter if I am in India, the US or the UK. I was provided a car and a driver for my job requirements in Saudi Arabia, in the US I trudge through sun and snow since public transport is so dismal where I work. I also don't wear a bathing suit on the beaches of India or US or UK, so its unlikely I'll develop a desire to do so in Saudi Arabia. I agree that voting rights in Saudi Arabia are dismal but this is a recurrent feature in right wing dictatorships supported by the US. Note that those Muslim countries where US support is minimal for dictators have no problems allowing women into the highest echelons of public office, driving or voting.

I went to Mecca several times with other women. We were given days off and free transportation to and from Mecca every Ramadan and Haj. If we stayed over for a few days, we also got accomodation gratis.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I don't drive. So it does not matter if I am in India, the US or the UK. I was provided a car and a driver for my job requirements in Saudi Arabia, in the US I trudge through sun and snow since public transport is so dismal where I work. I also don't wear a bathing suit on the beaches of India or US or UK, so its unlikely I'll develop a desire to do so in Saudi Arabia. I agree that voting rights in Saudi Arabia are dismal but this is a recurrent feature in right wing dictatorships supported by the US. Note that those Muslim countries where US support is minimal for dictators have no problems allowing women into the highest echelons of public office, driving or voting.

I went to Mecca several times with other women. We were given days off and free transportation to and from Mecca every Ramadan and Haj. If we stayed over for a few days, we also got accomodation gratis.

Really, you don't drive? I remember you talking about a VW that you had to roll start in college here in the U.S.

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope, must be someone else. I have a license but I use public transport

 

[superstring01]

I don't drive. So it does not matter if I am in India, the US or the UK.

Nice dodge, SAM. How about, could you drive, legally, if you were inclined to do so?

I trudge through sun and snow since public transport is so dismal where I work.

Typical dodge. Quick: avoid answering the question and bring up the USA! Good for you SAM. You continue to prove yourself to be totally incapable of telling the truth and discussing anything in good faith.

I also don't wear a bathing suit on the beaches of India or US or UK

Also a dodge. Could you, if you wanted to without the threat of bodily injury or imprisonment?

Note that those Muslim countries where US support is minimal for dictators have no problems allowing women into the highest echelons of public office, driving or voting.

Like Iran! Like with the Taliban! Like Sudan and Egypt!!!

I went to Mecca several times with other women. We were given days off and free transportation to and from Mecca every Ramadan and Haj. If we stayed over for a few days, we also got accomodation gratis.

Well, the Kingdom's website states specifically that women are required to have male chaperons (Mahram?) or have HIS signed consent if over 45 years of age, so good for you, you broke the laws if you went there without men.

~String

 

[quadraphonics]

Like Iran! Like with the Taliban! Like Sudan and Egypt!!!

I wouldn't put Egypt in the category "countries where US support for right-wing dictators is minimal."

Not that I agree that S.A.M.'s qualification is relevant in the first place, but if you're going to engage it without disputing it, you might as well be accurate...

 

[S.A.M.]

Nice dodge, SAM. How about, could you drive, legally, if you were inclined to do so?
Typical dodge. Quick: avoid answering the question and bring up the USA! Good for you SAM. You continue to prove yourself to be totally incapable of telling the truth and discussing anything in good faith.
Also a dodge. Could you, if you wanted to without the threat of bodily injury or imprisonment?
Like Iran! Like with the Taliban! Like Sudan and Egypt!!!
Well, the Kingdom's website states specifically that women are required to have male chaperons (Mahram?) or have HIS signed consent if over 45 years of age, so good for you, you broke the laws if you went there without men.

~String

All of the above are laws which are instituted by a US supported dictatorship. If I were in Morrocco, Lebanon, Indonesia, Muscat then none of the above would be a concern. As I said, I worked there for almost five years, followed the laws and was treated graciously and had no problems. Don't take my word for it, ask any woman who has visited the kingdom. Arab hospitality is famous for a reason. One unusual observation was that if you do your job well, you not only get credited for it but also get recognition for it. I was given complete freedom to do my job without any harassment from patronising testosterone junkies. It was a good experience. Quite a change from the usual.

 

[quadraphonics]

All of the above are laws which are instituted by a US supported dictatorship. If I were in Morrocco, Lebanon, Indonesia, Muscat then none of the above would be a concern.

All of the states you list are "US-supported," (and the last one is a dictatorship), so it seems that this is not the feature that differentiates them from, say, Saudi Arabia. For that matter, Morocco isn't far from being a dictatorship either.

Likewise, the laws string cited exist in Iran, which is hardly US-supported.

 

[superstring01]

Just as importantly, the laws in Saudi Arabia are carried out despite US concerncs about female equality. Wahabbis regularly thumb their noses at the USA (and the west in general) in their treatment of women. Even without American support, there is no evidence that things would improve for women. The vast majority of the population are Wahhabis and all evidence shows that were the monarchy to fall, you'd just have another form of female oppressing Sharia instated there, just under a religious dictatorship in lieu of a hereditary one.

~String