Kuwait Takes Some Small Steps...

[StrawDog]

Buffalo Roam;2262741]Police say 17,000 women are victims every year Ministers are stepping up the fight against so-called 'honour' crime and forced marriages. Detectives say official statistics are 'merely the tip of the iceberg' of this phenomenon. Brian Brady investigates
Sunday, 10 February 2008
Up to 17,000 women in Britain are being subjected to "honour" related violence, including murder, every year, according to police chiefs.
Yes, and?

Surely you are joking by attempting to make an issue about this? The unbelievable amount of violence against woman, just in US society, makes your attempts at biased disinformation slanderous.

MURDER -In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner.1 That's an average of three women every day. Of all the women murdered in the U.S., about one-third were killed by an intimate partner.2
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE (Intimate Partner Violence or Battering)-can be defined as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over an intimate partner.3 According to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, women experience about 4.8 million intimate partner-related physical assaults and rapes every year.4 Less than 20 percent of battered women sought medical treatment following an injury.5
SEXUAL VIOLENCE - According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That's more than 600 women every day.6 Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim's feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident.7

(http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html)

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Surely you are joking by attempting to make an issue about this? The unbelievable amount of violence against woman, just in US society, makes your attempts at biased disinformation slanderous.

(http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html)

No, but it seem that you are making a joke out of violence against women, your the one dismissing the Honor Attacks and Murders against Muslim Women as a minor thing, not worthy of discussion.

You are the one going the moral retaliativavism route to minimizes the violence against Muslim Women done in the name of Family Honor, by pointing to the west a saying look over there, not what's behind the curtain of Islam here.

 

[StrawDog]

No, but it seem that you are making a joke out of violence against women, your the one dismissing the Honor Attacks and Murders against Muslim Women as a minor thing, not worthy of discussion.
You are the one going the moral retaliativavism route to minimizes the violence against Muslim Women done in the name of Family Honor, by pointing to the west a saying look over there, not what's behind the curtain of Islam here.

No. I am pointing out your DEEP and disgusting bias against Muslims, by exposing the biased BS violence against woman that YOU spout, compared to a much MORE prevalent non religious violence against woman present in American society. Don`t try to turn this around.

I categorically denounce ANY violence against woman.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No. I am pointing out your DEEP and disgusting bias against Muslims, by exposing the biased BS violence against woman that YOU spout, compared to a much MORE prevalent non religious violence against woman present in American society. Don`t try to turn this around.

I categorically denounce ANY violence against woman.

Really, then why are you making a Morally Relevant argument as to which violence is worse?

Your the one pointing to everything else except the violence committed in the name of Islam which places the Families Honor over the life of their Daughters and Mothers.

Now let see some data that show more violence agains Women in the West than agains Muslim Women in Islam, but remember, there is a lack of reporting in Musliom societies when Honor is the justification, in fact that justifies it all in the Name of Family Honor.

Yes, a interview from the Muslim perspective,

Family, honor, killing-Samar Hasson murdered by her family for dating wrong man. No one's surprised
Jerusalem Post ^ | 12-27-05 | LARRY DERFNER


"The Hassons are a very conservative, traditional, respectable family," said Kneifes, estimating their number at 600 to 700. On the main street of Shfaram's El Ayin neighborhood, a large produce market as well as the auto parts shop carry the Hasson name, and both are just up the street from the old stone house where Samar Hasson lived with her family.

Kneifes said that while he himself did not speak to Hasson's father about Samar's behavior, other Druse sheikhs and community leaders did. They tried to impress on the father the urgent necessity that he bring his daughter in line, that he see to it that she stop going around with the Tamra man. The affair, Kneifes explained, "brought shame not only on her family, but on the entire Druse community."

Nonetheless, Samar's forbidden relationship carried on.

Everyone in Shfaram's Druse community knew about it. The men of the Hasson clan were "ashamed to be seen on the streets," said Kneifes. Now, however, in the aftermath of the murder, the Hasson men seem dramatically changed. "From the way they carry themselves, my impression is that [the murder] has been very good for their morale," he said. "The family has gotten its pride back."

A veteran local taxi driver, a Christian, speculated that because honor killing is such a grave act, the Hasson family members presumably responsible for it would have first had to receive the "blessing" of leading Israeli Druse sheikhs.

But Kneifes, whose late father, Salah, was one of the most revered Israeli Druse sheikhs of the past century, explained that in such a case as Samar Hasson's, Druse tradition would have left her family free to kill her on their own decision alone.

"When family honor is at stake, no approval [for any kind of punishment] is necessary," he said. "And no one asks any questions afterward."

 

[DiamondHearts]

No. I am pointing out your DEEP and disgusting bias against Muslims, by exposing the biased BS violence against woman that YOU spout, compared to a much MORE prevalent non religious violence against woman present in American society. Don`t try to turn this around.

I wonder, as of yet, if the moderators will do anything about this problem. It seems people are being banned for stimulating intellectual discussions, i.e. Scifes, while racist trolls such as Buffalo Roam are allowed to post with impunity. There seems to be a very real form of censorship in these forums.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Of course not, They don't do such things as the physically active women around my town do.

They can't.

I suggest you go to the Middle East and spend some time there. Only then will you understand this issue. i feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

I am judging from the Muslim women who have immigrated to my society, and mingle with the people here.

Most Muslim women in western societies don't wear niqab or chador, I would say that is 1% of total Muslim women in the West, maybe even less.

The style of dress similar to the Kuwaiti style adopted by some - not all, it depends on circumstance - of them is restrictive and cumbersome, and prevents them from leading a "physically active outdoor" life. It makes no physical sense, and creates many problems for them in their health and otherwise. They themselves explain it as a religious requirement, imposed by internalized social judgment upon violators.

You are neglecting the women have a choice as regards to what they wear. I have lived in the UAE, and many women there wear only a headscarf and a long dress. if you talk about Islam, this is what Islam mandates. Anything beyond this concerns the cultural aspect.

I have yet to see how fully covered Berber Tuareg men's full covering in the Sahara inhibits their daily duties. Just the same, Muslim women don't all dress the same, not even in a single country.

 

[iceaura]

I suggest you go to the Middle East and spend some time there. Only then will you understand this issue. i feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Your not making sense, is the problem. Those outfits are cumbersome and restrictive, and there is no way you are going to convince anyone who has worn different outfits otherwise.

Most Muslim women in western societies don't wear niqab or chador, I would say that is 1% of total Muslim women in the West, maybe even less.

So? Some do, and that's who I'm talking about.

You are neglecting the women have a choice as regards to what they wear.

I have dealt with that numerous times. Western feminist theory deals with that at great length and in detail. You are ignorant of an entire body of social analysis.

I have yet to see how fully covered Berber Tuareg men's full covering in the Sahara inhibits their daily duties.

Daily duties of human beings are adapted to the clothing they must wear, for whatever reason. Daily duties of Eskimos in January are not inhibited by full suit parka hoods and large bulky mittens.

I guarantee you a Berber Taureg's clothing would inhibit the daily duties of a local farmer in my area. Nobody on earth wears such clothing without a good reason, enforced somehow upon them.

I have lived in the UAE, and many women there wear only a headscarf and a long dress. if you talk about Islam, this is what Islam mandates. Anything beyond this concerns the cultural aspect.

Different Muslims have different ideas about what Islam mandates. That makes no difference to the obvious, visible fact that the women in countries like Kuwait are living in an oppressive, misogynistic culture. And the Kuwaiti version of Islam is central to it.

 

[DiamondHearts]

So? Some do, and that's who I'm talking about.
I have dealt with that numerous times. Western feminist theory deals with that at great length and in detail. You are ignorant of an entire body of social analysis.

White Western feminists do not represent the majority of the women in the US and Europe, much less outside this limited demographic. Women of color in the West and Non-Western societies have different ideas of what classifies women's rights and what doesn't. In morally conservative societies, wearing a bikini or barely covering one's body is seen as a form of psychological slavery, not freedom.

I guarantee you a Berber Taureg's clothing would inhibit the daily duties of a local farmer in my area. Nobody on earth wears such clothing without a good reason, enforced somehow upon them.

Who enforces the Tuareg men to dress the way they do? They do it out of personal choice.

Different Muslims have different ideas about what Islam mandates. That makes no difference to the obvious, visible fact that the women in countries like Kuwait are living in an oppressive, misogynistic culture. And the Kuwaiti version of Islam is central to it.

Are you implying that all women in Kuwait are forced to wear such clothing? You obviously have never been to the Khaleeji states. You should take a trip there sometime, you will realize just how wrong you are.

If you are attempting to say Islam is responsible for a cultural choice of Khaleeji women, then you should provide some documentation to prove your assertion from Islamic sources. Islam, indeed, does have dress codes for men and women, but they are very lenient. By blaming Islam for the problem, you reveal the classic dilemma in the warped Western view of everything related to Muslims and Islam.

If a woman chose to wear a particular dress, would you force her to remove it, or would you do the logical thing and allow her to choose?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

White Western feminists do not represent the majority of the women in the US and Europe, much less outside this limited demographic. Women of color in the West and Non-Western societies have different ideas of what classifies women's rights and what doesn't. In morally conservative societies, wearing a bikini or barely covering one's body is seen as a form of psychological slavery, not freedom.



Who enforces the Tuareg men to dress the way they do? They do it out of personal choice.



Are you implying that all women in Kuwait are forced to wear such clothing? You obviously have never been to the Khaleeji states. You should take a trip there sometime, you will realize just how wrong you are.

If you are attempting to say Islam is responsible for a cultural choice of Khaleeji women, then you should provide some documentation to prove your assertion from Islamic sources. Islam, indeed, does have dress codes for men and women, but they are very lenient. By blaming Islam for the problem, you reveal the classic dilemma in the warped Western view of everything related to Muslims and Islam.

If a woman chose to wear a particular dress, would you force her to remove it, or would you do the logical thing and allow her to choose?

Now lets just look at the normal, instead of the extreme.

In the west we do not control every aspect of our women's lives, we do not stand guard over them so they cannot have a conversation with another male, we do not restrict their movements in society, we do not take them to the doctor and stand guard while they are examined by a Doctor, we don't restrict their schooling.

If they wish to wear said garment that is one thing, but in much of the Islamic world it isn't their choice, it is law, state or Sharia.

 

[S.A.M.]

Normal instead of extreme.

Sometimes walking down streets in the US, one is forced to think, where is a burka when you need one?

Arab women are much more confident than most American women I have met. You've clearly never met an Arab woman.

 

[Repo Man]

By blaming Islam for the problem, you reveal the classic dilemma in the warped Western view of everything related to Muslims and Islam.I

Virtually all backward, regressive ideas and policies in the west stem from Christianity. Europe is more secular than the US, and suffers less from such nonsense than we do. So nude beaches, nudity on television, more openness about sex and sexuality, fewer anti abortion protesters, etc. etc. Many of us here see European countries as being farther along on the path of progress than we are, and think we would do well to emulate them. It seems quite obvious to us that the majority of nonsensical ideas in the ME come from Islamic dogma. But you're saying the backwards, regressive ideas come from elsewhere?

 

[DiamondHearts]

To claim that the majority of backward, regressive ideas of the West stem from Christianity is simply false. Measuring success only by the accumulation of capital and promotion of selfishness are not the sole criterion for determining success. The West has lost far more in its descent into Godlessness than it has gained. Suicide, divorce, teenage pregnancies, adultery, drug-use, neglect of children and parents, materialism, the rise of litigation, and the break up of the tradition family, as well as isolation from one's own historical roots are examples of the moral and mental deterioration of a society into anarchy and decay.

The Middle East has its fair share of problems, most of which are related to political subjugation, dictatorship, and secular one-party systems. The problems of the Middle East in particular, and the Muslim world in general are related to lack of political voice and influence by larger powers over smaller and weaker states. It can be compared to the problems associated with the nations of South America. The fact is that, for the most part, Islam is forcibly kept out of politics by a Westernized upper class, and this angers the populace and breeds resentment.

 

[fedr808]

No. I am pointing out your DEEP and disgusting bias against Muslims, by exposing the biased BS violence against woman that YOU spout, compared to a much MORE prevalent non religious violence against woman present in American society. Don`t try to turn this around.

I categorically denounce ANY violence against woman.

Im sorry Straw but your referance said NOTHING about those woman being killed over religion.

 

[DiamondHearts]

fedr, I never posted those red text in my original post. Please refrain from editing my posts in the future.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I do not represent any country, I represent only myself. I am not familiar with any country which has a 10% literacy rate, and as you can see I am quite literate in several languages. Islam gives women the right to divorce, the right to inherit property, and the right to work with the same rights as men. My country does not 'rape 5 year old girls' nor 'sells 10 year old as brides.' As I stated before, prostitution is banned in all Muslim countries and selling of women in punishable by death according to Islamic law.

I am taking your post as a personal attack and will be reporting it.

 

[StrawDog]

Virtually all backward, regressive ideas and policies in the west stem from Christianity. Europe is more secular than the US, and suffers less from such nonsense than we do. So nude beaches, nudity on television, more openness about sex and sexuality, fewer anti abortion protesters, etc. etc. Many of us here see European countries as being farther along on the path of progress than we are, and think we would do well to emulate them.

An fairly accurate appraisal of the difference between US and European sensibilities.

It seems quite obvious to us that the majority of nonsensical ideas in the ME come from Islamic dogma. But you're saying the backwards, regressive ideas come from elsewhere?

Perhaps what is being said, is that the Western "model" is not necessarily the benchmark for comparison.

 

[superstring01]

Mod Note: fedr808, your weird mis-quote of DiamondHearts has been deleted. Please refrain from adding material to quoted sections that did not previously exist. If you want to debate, just do so by replying to the material outside of the quotes.

 

[StrawDog]

Im sorry Straw but your referance said NOTHING about those woman being killed over religion.

Any extreme religious views can lead to violence. I could dredge up examples of deaths via exorcism or deaths associated with Jehovahs Witnesses denial of medical assistance, etc.

Do you think it matters WHY woman are killed. ANY violence against woman is to be denounced. I am pointing out BR`s hypocrisy friend.

 

[fedr808]

fedr, I never posted those red text in my original post. Please refrain from editing my posts in the future.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I do not represent any country, I represent only myself. I am not familiar with any country which has a 10% literacy rate, and as you can see I am quite literate in several languages. Islam gives women the right to divorce, the right to inherit property, and the right to work with the same rights as men. My country does not 'rape 5 year old girls' nor 'sells 10 year old as brides.' As I stated before, prostitution is banned in all Muslim countries and selling of women in punishable by death according to Islamic law.

I am taking your post as a personal attack and will be reporting it.

Diamond, in case you have never seen that practice before. I did not put the red text in there to make it seem like you said it.

It is my reply to what you said in that part of the quote and the fact that is was color coded red and people on the forums have been doing stuff loike that for months is strange that you have not seen that country.

And PS. a sharia or religious leader, did say it is fully legal to sell a daughter between the ages of 10 and 12 and actually it was wrong not to.

 

[Repo Man]

To claim that the majority of backward, regressive ideas of the West stem from Christianity is simply false. Measuring success only by the accumulation of capital and promotion of selfishness are not the sole criterion for determining success. The West has lost far more in its descent into Godlessness than it has gained. Suicide, divorce, teenage pregnancies, adultery, drug-use, neglect of children and parents, materialism, the rise of litigation, and the break up of the tradition family, as well as isolation from one's own historical roots are examples of the moral and mental deterioration of a society into anarchy and decay.

Post hoc fallacy. You cannot prove that the increase in secularism caused those things. And modern Europe, though more secular than the US, seems to have fewer social problems than the US.

Is divorce a problem? Is it better that two people who hate each other should stay married? Why are long term marriages the mark of a successful society?

Freedom of choice means the freedom to make the wrong choice. Though I personally disapprove of adultery, drinking to excess, smoking, and virtually all other drug use, for the most part what others ingest is none of my business.

The Middle East has its fair share of problems, most of which are related to political subjugation, dictatorship, and secular one-party systems. The problems of the Middle East in particular, and the Muslim world in general are related to lack of political voice and influence by larger powers over smaller and weaker states. It can be compared to the problems associated with the nations of South America. The fact is that, for the most part, Islam is forcibly kept out of politics by a Westernized upper class, and this angers the populace and breeds resentment.

For the most part in the US, Christianity is kept out of politics by the majority, but only with a great deal of effort. Theocracy advocates would love to get their way, and create a "Christian nation" that would be nearly as regressive as the worst of the Islamic theocratic states. Luckily they aren't nearly numerous enough to have a chance of getting their way, and have to settle for battles such as trying to give "creation science" equal time in public schools.

 

[iceaura]

White Western feminists do not represent the majority of the women in the US and Europe, much less outside this limited demographic.

So? It's an issue of reality. It's not something you vote on.

Women of color in the West and Non-Western societies have different ideas of what classifies women's rights and what doesn't. In morally conservative societies, wearing a bikini or barely covering one's body is seen as a form of psychological slavery, not freedom.

So? Theyr'e wrong. It's possible to be wrong, you know, as a culture.

If "choice" is your criterion, I guarantee you women in my town have more choice over whether or not to wear a bikini, than women in several Islamic countries have about whether or not to wear one of those bag outfits. They also have more choice about whether to wear the bag outfit. And of course the choice to wear a bikini - not allowed, in Muslim lands.

Who enforces the Tuareg men to dress the way they do? They do it out of personal choice.

This is getting silly. Why do you keep talking about "personal choice"? And who cares what Taureg men wear? You are bringing in all kinds of irrelevancies, and they have already been dealt with in earlier posts. Almost all the oppression of women everywhere has been and still is set up as a "choice" of the women, imposed by other women. That's how it works.

Are you implying that all women in Kuwait are forced to wear such clothing?

No. I am stating that Kuwait is obviously inhabited by a misogynistic, oppressive culture. You can see that from a satellite.

Islam, indeed, does have dress codes for men and women, but they are very lenient.

Their leniency is far more impressive to you than to me, perhaps because you do not require Islam to account for all of its representations. But that is beside the point. The point is, that Islam has a dress code. And in every Islamic culture, it is enforced according to the local religious beliefs. Kuwait's dress code is justified by the local Islamic beliefs, and enforced by the State. Free people do not have restrictive dress codes justified by religion and imposed by the State.

If a woman chose to wear a particular dress, would you force her to remove it, or would you do the logical thing and allow her to choose?

In my society, she would choose whether I "allowed" her to or not. In Muslim countries, the question of whether she would be "allowed" to choose would be answered, and the answer would be no.

The Middle East has its fair share of problems, most of which are related to political subjugation, dictatorship, and secular one-party systems.

One of those problems is that no one keeps track of the other problems. In the West, you can find out about problems. In the Middle East, people tell me there are no brothels in Pakistan.

Sometimes walking down streets in the US, one is forced to think, where is a burka when you need one?

Mechanism of enforcement - feminism 101. The key is: you can defy it, if you want to. You have that ability, in real life. And of course, in America, the burka is as close as your closet, if you choose.

Arab women are much more confident than most American women I have met. You've clearly never met an Arab woman

I've met several, to the extent that one can meet them. They seem very confident, as a group, within very small lives - a defined role, and security within it. I can see the attraction of such a life. It is not admirable, though. I would not want my mother to have been confined like that.