Knowlege v. Proof: The Burning Question

¿Help?

  • Phuck all dat. There is no point in trying to preserve parenthood while this is going on.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Um ... er ... phuck me. I mean, I want to help, but ....

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
  • Poll closed .

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
So You Think You're That Effing Smart ...

Real-life application:

• You have no legal authority to drag a particular addict kicking and screaming into rehab.

• The alleged addict in question is the mother of your child.

• You have no legally admissible proof.

Everyone in the alleged addict's spheres of influence is starting to move.

• Your primary obligation: Can I get my friend out of this before the state gets involved?

Technically, your primary obligation is to get your friend out of this, but I'm asking for the luxury of this specific accommodation in the consideration.

Please?

Update: I should note that, while the poll runs for thirty days, the actual question, in real application, does not enjoy so luxurious a period. Just sayin' ... I mean, your advice is greatly appreciated, but the actual period in which the poll is applicable is arbitrary insofar as life itself has the authority to render such considerations moot.
 
Last edited:
Tell her what is about to happen and advise her that she is currently still in control of her destiny. The best way to maintain and keep that control is to get help now before the State moves against her. She needs to get herself into rehab and she needs to understand this, for her daughter's sake and her own. If she does this without State involvement or before State involvement, then she will maintain that level of control.

Then I would tell her that our daughter needed her in her life and needs her to have that autonomy so she can be in her life and I would tell her that I would help her get better so she could be the mother she is to our daughter. And hope like hell it works.
 
Who has custody of the child? If the state gets involved will they seek the death penalty? Sometimes consequences are necessary.

"I keep hearing about hitting bottom - when do you hit bottom?" An older gentleman, whom I knew to be a frequent flyer (lots of turns in rehab) and whom I also (wrongly) assumed was just there for the ride, was sitting in the back of the room. His chair was tipped back against the windows of the porch and, with a baseball cap snugged over his eyes he was enjoying the late afternoon sun. He responded in a soft voice, "When you quit diggin', boy.”

Everyone's bottom is different, but I've found it often comes when the motivation for avoidance (anxiety, depression, trauma, fear, etc.) is no longer more compelling than the consequences of continuing with the compulsion or addiction that is fed by that avoidance.

The bottom line is this - we need to own the consequences of our actions before we feel compelled to act.

Set clear personal boundaries without closing her off completely. And never-ever give up on her.

Addiction and Consequences: The Knowing and the Doing
 
I'd start with the sobering realization that rehab is like every other human artifact: much less than 100% effective.

Contrary to the shit-for-brains government's propaganda, the vast majority of people who use drugs really do use them recreationally and never come close to a catastrophe. [Exception: alcohol. A large percentage of people who have drunk it have at least once drunk too much and driven home anyway. Quite a few of them have caused bad accidents--I knew three who killed themselves. Oddly, this is not the drug that the s-f-b government is coming down on.]

So you're talking about a one-percenter here, and every one-percenter is different. Getting her into rehab may or may not help, but if you don't know what set her on the road to addiction, she needs an extremely skillful psychotherapist who will be able to figure it out. That's going to cost more money than the average addict has--and even then the probability of curing her is far less than 100%.

This is one of the many reasons that addicts end up with few friends or no friends, and why even their families often abandon them. It drives them to tears to watch her getting worse and worse, while they are powerless to help.

Bless you if you're going to stick by her, but it's going to take more than determination to turn her around.
 
you can force a horse to the water but you cant make em drink.

drugs, most specifically meth, is a difficult drug, everyone condemns it, but accepts it as Adderall or Ritalin, some ppl use it because it makes them feel better about themselves, not knowing or understanding that there is a underlying problem that meth addresses and makes them feel better,

I once had a meth habit (addiction is an inappropriate word for me, because I can quit anything)(it cleared my head, I could think better) and one day I just got tired of it and quit, years later I found I had ADHD and was prescribed Adderall, I took one pill and it made me feel like I was when I was doing meth, I refuse to take it because of that now.

your friend has to realize that she needs to change her habits, you wont be able to do it by villanizing (spell check doesn't have a clue) the drug or her habits, she will just put up her walls saying 'you just don't understand' the only way YOU can help is to address the basic problems (she may not fully understand what the basic problem is) and teach her different ways to cope, this is where the state is a good thing, once the police get involved many options open up for her, the court prefers that they seek help, so much so that they will pay for rehabilitation and therapy. the court understands the fine line between meth and Adderall, they want to give them the opportunity to get them to see that its not meth they need but therapy,(funny how they are ok with Adderall and Ritalin even though it is the same thing as meth)IOW they would rather see you on Adderall than meth, and they will give them the opportunity to switch.

the only other option is for her to goto a place like PMS (prespiterian medical services) they use a sliding scale system to help pay for services, and if they cant afford that, they have options for free services, but again you cant drag her against her will, she has to want to change.

talk all you want to her, show her that there are ppl who care, who want to understand and not just condem/judge her for her choices, it may just take a threat of her kids getting taken away to get her to choose to change,
but meanwhile show her that you do care,
ask her what does it do to make her feel better, address that issue,
try to lead her to see the difference between use and abuse.
once she learns the skills to moderate her usage, its easier for her to quit totally.
 
May I ask what the particular substance--or substances--is/are?

Like Fraggle, I'm somewhat doubtful about the efficacy of rehab, and the substance in question is very much a determining factor for such.

To wit, when narcotics proper (opiates/opioids) are the D.O.C., rehab often proves an utterly futile and pointless exercise. The exception perhaps being when the individual becomes addicted through--essentially--no doing of their own, i.e., one is prescribed a needlessly large dosage of some narcotic following a surgery or mishap, and becomes hooked. However when the individual becomes habituated of their own desire and through their own devices, it's a very different matter. In the latter instance, replacement "therapy" with methadone or buprenorphine can be a far better option than rehab.

I'm speaking from experience here: I'm a refractory epileptic whose tried virtually every anticonvulsant available to no avail; in fact, some even trigger types of seizures which I'd never had previously. I've also got some kind of weird emotional/sensory disorder--possibly as a result of seizing thousands of times over the course of a lifetime--which I can only describe as like experiencing the world as some kind of furry predatorial mammal, rather than like a human. Opiates are the only thing which have ever addressed the epilepsy and the steppenwolf-syndrome with any success, and with few side-effects or deleterious effects upon my health.

Point being: depending upon the substance and the circumstances of the individual, sometimes finding a way to control the "addiction" can prove more fruitful and beneficial than simply striving to eliminate it altogether.
 
Point being: depending upon the substance and the circumstances of the individual, sometimes finding a way to control the "addiction" can prove more fruitful and beneficial than simply striving to eliminate it altogether.
Indeed. Lots of us are addicted to caffeine. It's ruined my life on one occasion and caused enormous damage two other times. But for historical and commercial reasons it is seldom categorized as a "drug," and never as a "dangerous drug." On the contrary, it is marketed directly to children by some of our most beloved public figures.

Since it is not even treated like alcohol, a drug which is legal but whose destructive power is nonetheless acknowledged, there are no procedures for ending a caffeine addiction. They just tell us to drink less of it, as though somehow that's easier than drinking less whiskey or smoking less tobacco.

In any case, we cola/coffee/tea/chocolate junkies are probably the experts on controlling an addiction without eliminating it, because the latter has never been offered as a viable course of action.

I guess we should go on lecture tours, teaching meth, crack and heroin addicts how to control their addictions without having to completely give up the drug without which they don't believe they could survive.
 
Indeed. Lots of us are addicted to caffeine. It's ruined my life on one occasion and caused enormous damage two other times. But for historical and commercial reasons it is seldom categorized as a "drug," and never as a "dangerous drug." On the contrary, it is marketed directly to children by some of our most beloved public figures.

Since it is not even treated like alcohol, a drug which is legal but whose destructive power is nonetheless acknowledged, there are no procedures for ending a caffeine addiction. They just tell us to drink less of it, as though somehow that's easier than drinking less whiskey or smoking less tobacco.

In any case, we cola/coffee/tea/chocolate junkies are probably the experts on controlling an addiction without eliminating it, because the latter has never been offered as a viable course of action.

I guess we should go on lecture tours, teaching meth, crack and heroin addicts how to control their addictions without having to completely give up the drug without which they don't believe they could survive.

Caffeine has zero effect on me. I love the taste of coffee, can drink it every day and walk away from it without batting an eyelash. Alcohol hits me hard now adays, i think it is due to my age. Creeping up on 50...my body has changed, i guess what they say is true - "i'm half the man i was at 25". Coffee i'll be drinking when i'm 90 and it'll still be like boscoe.
 
Indeed. Lots of us are addicted to caffeine. It's ruined my life on one occasion and caused enormous damage two other times. But for historical and commercial reasons it is seldom categorized as a "drug," and never as a "dangerous drug." On the contrary, it is marketed directly to children by some of our most beloved public figures.

Since it is not even treated like alcohol, a drug which is legal but whose destructive power is nonetheless acknowledged, there are no procedures for ending a caffeine addiction. They just tell us to drink less of it, as though somehow that's easier than drinking less whiskey or smoking less tobacco.

Likewise, a lot of psychotropic drugs--anti-depressants especially--are addictive, or "habit forming"--something which pharmaceutical companies do their utmost to keep under wraps. Such drugs, along with any sort of stimulant stronger than caffeine, are not unlike PCP to someone like me: they trigger an abrupt, and often prolonged, episode of hyper-mania and cause me to seize like fucking crazy. And yet, many a doctor will not hesitate to prescribe such to me--even with my full medical history at their disposal.

Regardless, there are certain instances for which addiction may be a necessary evil, or a trade-off of sorts. I think one of the more pertinent questions regarding an addict is whether they are using said substance to "get high," or simply to "get by." If the latter, I think it might be worth exploring other options than simply altogether eliminating the substance. Of course, this would also depend upon the substance in question and whether or not it has long-term deleterious effects upon one's well-being and functioning within the world.
 
I feel like I missed an explanation of the situation somewhere; Tiassa, can you provide me a little more background on what exactly is occurring here? I know what my current thoughts are on this, but I want to make sure i have my facts straight first.
 
So You Think You're That Effing Smart ...

Real-life application:

• You have no legal authority to drag a particular addict kicking and screaming into rehab.

• The alleged addict in question is the mother of your child.

• You have no legally admissible proof.

Everyone in the alleged addict's spheres of influence is starting to move.

• Your primary obligation: Can I get my friend out of this before the state gets involved?

Technically, your primary obligation is to get your friend out of this, but I'm asking for the luxury of this specific accommodation in the consideration.

Please?

Update: I should note that, while the poll runs for thirty days, the actual question, in real application, does not enjoy so luxurious a period. Just sayin' ... I mean, your advice is greatly appreciated, but the actual period in which the poll is applicable is arbitrary insofar as life itself has the authority to render such considerations moot.

What is the range of potential resources available: do any members of health civil service have any knowledge of or interest in this case? What pressure could they bring to bear? Do you know a lawyer? Can you arrange for evidence to be provided to social workers or law enforcement? Find the weak spot and press it.

What drugs are in use and is your child exposed?
 
O! Happy Meat!

Notes on a Tragedy Unfolding

(See also, "Mosquito Hunt")

The rumors are that lovely, deathly mix of methamphetamine and heroin.

When my mother asks, "What's wrong with Tig?" it's easy enough to push the question away; normal is a puzzling notion for most when my child's mother is in the room. It is as if people forget that there is a difference between the general and particular. That is, generally speaking there is normal, and then there is normal for this particular individual, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

When Tig's father, her strongest and blindest defender, starts dropping hints that he is worried, and asking pointed questions that once upon a time he would have answered for himself, yes, that is the sort of thing I notice.

But all the while, there is what history reminds; there is no halfway, no small engagement—if the fight is going to happen, it will happen on a nearly cosmic scale. This has been enough to keep the various players in line, much akin to that cursed assertion of Mutually Assured Destruction.

The conditioned behavior is that unless you are prepared for knock-down, drag-out, an-episode-of-Cops-in-the-driveway, it is best to wait for another day, when the reasons are more clearly defined, and the projected outcome more encouragingly assured.

These are the sins; this is all it takes to make people look away.

When someone pulls you aside and says, "Look, I'm an addict, so take that how you will—but this is a problem," it is impossible to simply look away. The proverbial game is afoot, the fact that it is not actually a game notwithstanding.

The child is secure for now; as long as that remains the case without getting the courts involved, that's how it needs to go.

A week into a bizarre dialogue in which nothing seems normal, correct, or otherwise not absurd, Tig is finally starting to mount a defense. This is, in and of itself, unsettling to say the least. To the one, the "misunderstanding and confusion" defense is well past its shelf life. To the other, even at its best that defense cannot settle the ultimate question.

To the beeblebrox, it's toothless. That is the scary part.

Generally speaking, with even the slightest question of whether or not everything is alright, one can expect a ferocious response; Tig normally goes on the offensive and tries to corner and shame you for being so stupid as to ask. Full diplomatic mode is, for her, a tactical withdrawal in order to buy more time.

The whole question could have been settled in five seconds, including the part where I apologize and crawl home with my tail between my legs. For whatever reasons, she chose to not settle the question. Thrice that opportunity was put before her. If she's guilty, as such, there is a reason she won't put the question to rest—she cannot. If she is innocent, there is something else entirely bizarre going on. After all, the chance to rub my nose in being wrong? On an occasion when I am as near to panic as anyone has seen me in over twenty years? She should be raising her glass to the Devil, sipping my soul with each celebration.

If I'm wrong, this is as stupid and embarrassing as it gets.

But I'm not wrong.

I took point on this in order to contain the flight risk. Well, that and if I left it to anyone else ... well, we don't know. But her father, usually her staunchest defender against rumors of alcoholism and other such issues, is virtually paralyzed. His true colors are emerging, and they are what everyone who isn't in his church already knew; yellow for cowardice, and black for the corruption of his pride. It's almost enough to make me wish his Biblical God existed, so that I could see the look on his face when he found out how badly he's screwed everything up.

But this isn't time for pettiness.

The reality is that there are three main factions on the intervening side; one that never liked Tig to begin with, one that wants desperately for this to not be true because otherwise it might make him look bad in his own eyes, and, well, yeah, me.

I have a small cavalry in reserve, in case this situation codes, but they can do nothing other than wait for my call. And then there are the minor factions, none of which really give a damn about Tig, and some would even be happy to see her go away forever.

There is a fourth potential faction for the intervening side, but I'm not sure which pejorative applies to his utter lack of utility. That is, the person who knows even more than I do about what has been going on is hedging on the idea that other people will judge him. Not, I should make clear, for his inability to prevent this, but, rather, because he is ashamed of himself. That is, frankly, I don't care whether one is an "alcoholic" or a "functioning alcoholic"; right now he's a lifeline, but frayed and limp and weathered to pathetic, mewling uselessness.

So I spent today getting my legal sea-legs. It's not quite as dire a conundrum as I had been thinking, but I'm still not pleased. Any venture into a courtroom is risky.

To the other, I'm running out of time. It's one thing to worry about the state. The other consideration, of course, is that this is heroin.

That is to say, I can put off calls for legal action a little while longer. While Tig is willing to retreat and scramble to try to get some sort of handle on this thing—likely an exercise in futility—I can still apply what leverage I have in order to get to the bottom of this. There are a number of people hoping she's stupid enough to call the police; I'm covered against parental abduction under the applicable laws, so all she would accomplish is forcing the situation into the courtroom I'm trying to avoid.

But that consideration requires, well, that she lives through this. The courtroom, obviously, is an important deadline. But there is one greater, and I have no idea what the clock says for that.

I don't have the legal authority to drag her, kicking and screaming, to rehab.

Every day I wait to force an endgame might be one day too long.

Everyone else with a lever is maneuvering to cover their asses after I fail.

And come on, any book will clearly state the odds that this is not one I can win.

I accept that. Even without accounting for the child, this is my friend of eighteen years.

It's not that I'm the only one capable; who the hell is capable of pulling this one off? I mean, really, just how much practice and rehearsal should anyone give this sort of crisis? You know, give me a few more junkies and I might actually get the hang of it.

Neither is it that I'm the only one willing.

Oh, wait.

No, never mind. I mean, it's not exactly that I'm willing; science has never identified the kamikaze gene.

People of faith might say that we deal with what God gives us. For the rest of us, life simply is.

Tig has given me a gift beyond any other in this world; perhaps I am arrogant to insist that she ought to stick around and enjoy it. But, really, there is no good solution. There is only bad, worse, and worst. I'm trying to contain this at bad.

If it comes to worse, say, an arrest, I'll deal with that when it comes up.

Worst is unacceptable. Sisyphus will not be happy.

I've often joked that my epitaph should simply read, "He tried." But this is one case where that just isn't enough.

The man of faith will have his comfort; it's not his fault, after all.

The man of spirits will have his comfort; suffering makes him feel special.

The idiot in the vanguard? The one carrying the banner to the center of the field?

O! happy meat!
 
We all fail; the best we can do is to limit the frequency of failure. Limiting its magnitude is also nice, but much more difficult to pull off.

Really horrible failures become part of who we are and we carry them with us forever. Occasionally we find a way to forgive ourselves for just one, and the relief is so wonderful that for a few moments we can forget about the others.

What's important in the long run is: Was this truly MY failure? Was there really a way in which I could have changed the outcome?

You're dealing with an addict. Unlike me, you were born in an era in which addiction was a topic for discussion in school, on TV, and everywhere else. You knew far more about it when you were 15 than I did when I was 30.

My point? You know damn well what the odds are of a hard-core addict being rehabilitated. You know damn well that the intensity of the love of friends and family has almost zero effect. You know that the efforts of the medical profession have almost as little effect as friends and family. Ditto for unbearable disasters such as losing a job or having a child taken away--in fact these are likely to intensify the cravings. (Negligently letting a child die while in a drug-induced stupor: now THAT might cause an epiphany, but it's just as likely to inspire a fatal overdose.)

You know that going to prison or being committed to a psych ward are the only (more-or-less) successful ways of detoxing an addict--and in many cases the detox lasts only as long as the incarceration.

So please, Dear Friend: don't beat yourself up over this. It's okay to feel bad, but it's not okay to blame yourself. You're not omnipotent, and the rest of us are rather glad for that. ;)
 
I don’t know. This is a little different, but sometimes I think it’s difficult to come up with a solution because there is this underlying question regarding personal choice. It’s sort of weird. We believe so strongly in free will, individual rights, and the empowerment of choice that we forget how isolating it can be.

Even though we know about genetic influence, and susceptibility, the individual choice is what we focus on. It’s their responsibility, right? They’re the ones that made that choice, right? Only they can choose to quit, right? And when they make the wrong choice, BAM, "FAILURE" is stamped on their forehead.

Is the chance of success really that unrealistic? Maybe it depends on the definition of success. Concepts of success are cultural, right? We all tell ourselves stories in order to live. We have an idea about what it means to be successful. We analyze it, measure it, and judge it. We compare ourselves to those who are above us and below, but no one knows how to live, no one, we just all think we do.

I've never done drugs before but I think it’s safe to assume that it makes life seem easier. It makes everything feel right, and okay, indicating that life wasn't okay before they started using. Who told them that it wasn't okay?

I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Who told thee that thou wast naked?

We all bleed, do we not? Some just hide it better than others.

It’s a choice that works…until it no longer works.

10 Myths about Rehab and Addiction

P.S. Tiassa, do you know why I don’t like your writing? You talk at people, not to them.
 
What an Interesting Critique

Trooper said:

P.S. Tiassa, do you know why I don’t like your writing? You talk at people, not to them.

Good to know. And thank you for the reminder of what's really important.
 
yech, heroin..

its a MUCH harder drug to quit.

I had a girlfriend long time ago in the carnival who used heroin, i had managed to convince her to try to quit, I asked her for her stash and ground it into the ground, a day later she was shaky and appeared to have the flue..
if only..

if only I had more time to spend with her..(work got in the way)
if only I had been able to be with her for support to help her through it..
if only I was older and knew more

but I don't know.. I caved in after a couple days and let her go to LA so she could re-up.. that was the last time I saw her.

I think about her once in awhile, I wonder if I was there for her would she have been able to quit.. I wonder if she still survives..

Mi where are you?
 
Back
Top