Justice? Vengeance? Alabama executes 74 year-old man

[Tiassa]

A Dish Best Served Coldly
Alabama executes 74 year-old cancer patient, oldest inmate on "the row"

In Atmore, Alabama, inmates on the state's death row helped J.B. Hubbard walk; they cleaned and groomed him. Hubbard, 74, suffered colon and prostate cancer, hypertension, dementia. While Hubbard, whose ailments included hepatitis and emphysema, may seem to have been well-seated in the carriage with Death and Immortality, the officials at Holman Correctional Center claimed vengeance on behalf of the state of Alabama and the families of his victims. Hubbard's execution came in response to the 1977 murder of Lillian Montgomery.

Hubbard first killed in 1957, teaming with his uncle to rob and murder a Tuscaloosa man. He was sentenced to 50 years in prison but was released in October 1976, in part because a widow agreed to give him a job and help ease him back into society. Lillian Montgomery's sons remembered letters bouncing back and forth between their mother and the inmate who had once lived in the trailer park not far from their store . . . .

. . . . Hubbard worked in the family's store after being released from prison. But not long after he was freed, Hubbard moved into Lillian Montgomery's home, though Johnny Montgomery doubts his mother and the newly released inmate were romantically involved.

He said he saw Hubbard's things in the house and shook his head with disapproval the last night he saw his mother alive when he picked her up for an Elvis Presley concert in Tuscaloosa.

Not long after, on a winter evening in 1977, police say Hubbard shot his benefactor three times in the face. Hubbard, who was 47 at the time, used a gun -- a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver -- that Jimmy Montgomery had given to his mother so she could protect herself at the store.

Source: Washington Post

Jimmy Montgomery did attend the execution. His brother Johnny stayed home, and said he thought about a letter he sent Hubbard in the days leading up to the execution, in which he had forgiven his mother's killer.

Personally, I'm left to wonder why we threw Jack Kevorkian in prison. This execution was purely about vengeance, and perhaps paradoxically merciful.

Welcome to the Heart of Dixie. Also known as the Lizard State.
____________________

Notes:

• Roig-Franzia, Manuel. "Alabama Executes 74-Year-Old Man." Washington Post, August 6, 2004; page A01. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43630-2004Aug5.html

For more information on Alabama state nicknames, see Netstate - http://www.netstate.com/states/intro/al_intro.htm

 

[§outh§tar]

The thing to remember is the same power that put him in prison in 1957 released him because of mercy.

Now before anyone screams murder, we must remember that not too many people get second chances at life, and especially not those who should have it (as we see in this case).
We know that he got a second chance to live under society's rules as society saw fit and he declined, now he has to face the music.

No one would be reaching for the tissues if we found out that this is really Hitler with some excellent plastic surgery so why the fuss here?

 

[Tiassa]

Actually, executing him seems rather pointless. I can't imagine having cancer, emphysema, and hepatitis is comfortable. I can't see that needing your fellow murderers to bathe and groom you is dignified. I can't see how a dementia that necessitates your fellow murderers repeatedly explaining to you who you are and what you have done is at all pleasant.

It's bloodlust, the pure need to kill something that brings his execution. If vengeance is so important, keep the guy alive in his misery for even longer.

I mean, executing him, on this occasion, really does seem a mercy killing. It makes a mockery of capital punishment.

 

[Asguard]

the death pennelty is ALWAYS inhumane so why use it

why not totally abolish it?

it hasnt hurt australia that its illegal here

 

[robtex]

the death pennelty is ALWAYS inhumane so why use it

why not totally abolish it?

it hasnt hurt australia that its illegal here

I agree with you. American words like "closure" and "justice" when it comes to the death penalty are vengence in diguise.

There is nothing that society gained by Hubbard's execution other than vengance. Perhaps he was not reformable (which we cannot know from here in cyberspace), but incarceration of the remainder of his life would be a solution to that.

Death of an indivdual does not "solve" any problems it only removes those problems from society.


What I find more interesting though, in regards to indivdual's beliefs is that every single person, with no exceptions that I can think of, who believes in the death penatly believes in war as a solution to forgien problems. Usually war as the only solution

 

[robtex]

We know that he got a second chance to live under society's rules as society saw fit and he declined, now he has to face the music.

"Facing the Music" is a very artistic way to put it but makes it harder to understand your point. Replace the pharse "face the music" with another one....

is the appropiate replacement

atonement?
revenge?
vengence?
justice?

or a differnent word or phase and if so under what justification?

I understand your stance but am curious as to why?

thanks

 

[Rappaccini]

"If we're going to call ourselves a civilized society, I see no point in it," said Lucia Penland of the Alabama Prison Project, a Montgomery-based advocacy group for death row inmates. ". . . It seems mean-spirited."

This is silly.
The man killed twice. It was only proper that he be executed, regardless of his poor health.

I apologize, but I cannot see how anyone could pity a murdering monster like this man.

Death of an indivdual does not "solve" any problems it only removes those problems from society.

If you intend to use the normal, English definition of the word "solve," then, yes, it solves the problem quite well.
The 'problem' is, after all, the very existence of the uncooperative and criminal element of society, the felon himself.

the death pennelty is ALWAYS inhumane...

So say you.

Besides, where did you get the cockamamy notion that justice should be humane?

 

[robtex]

[QUOTE
If you intend to use the normal, English definition of the word "solve," then, yes, it solves the problem quite well.
[/QUOTE]


Wouldn't solving the problem be both

1) bringing the deceased back to life which is impossible

2) seperating the murder from society which incarcertion does ?

When you say it is only proper...are u justifing it as "an eye for an eye"?

If so, why do you believe in an eye for an eye in regards to murder?

In regards to your aruguement with Asguard saying it is humane...how so?

 

[Rappaccini]

Justice is not humane, and it is not meant to be humane. It is meant to be just what it is... a harsh measure to match a harsh reality.

Murderers do not ask for humanity when they kill; they separate themselves from the law and alienate themselves from society. They become 'problems,' in a very fitting sense of the word.
They must then either be painstakingly rehabilitated or killed. The Judge, who is presumably a sage in these matters, decides which option is the better of the two for a given case.

Once one of these options is pursued to its fullest extent and, hopefully, to a complete and rewarding fruition, the 'problem' has been solved.


Seeing as resurrection of the dead is impossible, as you mentioned, I do not understand why you brought it up.

I say that it is "proper" that he was executed since the man was, evidently, beyond any rehabilitation.

In regards to your aruguement with Asguard saying it is humane...how so?

Well, I apologize. So say you was a snide and petty comment.
By it, I meant to say that his mere statement of his opinion did not make it so.



To let the man lie in his bed and in his misery, that would have been an act of vengeance, in my opinion. However, my opinion is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the fact that the law, as it is established in these States, does not allow for this man, this fiend, this murderer, to go without punishment, to go without removal.
Even a single exception, however emotionally appealing it may be, cannot, for the sake of the law, be made. Such an excpetion would be an injustice of the truest form.

 

[robtex]

What is relevant is the fact that the law, as it is established in these States, does not allow for this man, this fiend, this murderer, to go without punishment, to go without removal.
Even a single exception, however emotionally appealing it may be, cannot, for the sake of the law, be made. Such an excpetion would be an injustice of the truest form.

ok i got your stance but why the punishment of exectution over the punishment of life incarceration?

 

[Tiassa]

He stood in a field where barley grows . . . .

• "The thing to remember is the same power that put him in prison in 1957 released him because of mercy." (§outh§tar)

• "I apologize, but I cannot see how anyone could pity a murdering monster like this man." (Rappaccini)

I am wondering why people think this particular instance is about pity or mercy or whatever. This is more about the society doing the executing than it is about the killer. In order to enjoy the satisfaction of legalized homicide, Alabama has essentially given a killer mercy. Granting a stay of execution based on his poor health and causing him to live his days in misery is certainly not the merciful thing to do. As it is, he went relatively peacefully, and did not suffer at the end. Leaving him his life, to live and die at nature's call .... Not only does society get the satisfaction of his natural suffering, but it retains the dignity of not executing someone for the mere pleasure of taking an eye for an eye, a soul for a soul.

Quit with the scarecrows. What, aside from the satisfaction of giving itself a reason to kill someone, did this execution gain this society?

 

[§outh§tar]

Not only does society get the satisfaction of his natural suffering, but it retains the dignity of not executing someone for the mere pleasure of taking an eye for an eye, a soul for a soul.

And like I said, he GOT a second chance. Think about it for a moment. How many people do what he did and get a second chance at life, especially in the (dare I say lucky) circumstances involved in his release?

 

[§outh§tar]

"Facing the Music" is a very artistic way to put it but makes it harder to understand your point. Replace the pharse "face the music" with another one....

is the appropiate replacement

atonement?
revenge?
vengence?
justice?

or a differnent word or phase and if so under what justification?

I understand your stance but am curious as to why?

thanks

Well, it appears the mercy that the society tiassa is now condemning gave him only served to postpone the consequences of his actions. That's cause and effect in society for you.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

 

[Rappaccini]

ok i got your stance but why the punishment of exectution over the punishment of life incarceration?

Execution is undeniably cheaper and more practical, and, in all honesty, the murderer's life is forfeit once he commits his crime. He does not deserve his own, free life, as he has taken another's, and, if the judge permits him to continue living, with the hope of rehabilitation, it is only through the mercies of society at large.
Furthermore, ideally, it is not society's obligation to feed, shelter, and isolate a person who has shown himself to be a danger, a malicious parasite, unreconciled to the law of the land, and the only other option (beside execution) is setting him free... that's just dumb.

Quit with the scarecrows. What, aside from the satisfaction of giving itself a reason to kill someone, did this execution gain this society?

"Satisfaction" and "gain" are not the point. The point is justice. The man was sentenced to execution by the state, a just end, and that's what he had to endure, whatever his health or age.

How do you imagine that the court and prison systems operate in terms of gain?

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert Title Here)

And like I said, he GOT a second chance. Think about it for a moment. How many people do what he did and get a second chance at life, especially in the (dare I say lucky) circumstances involved in his release?

And I say that's beside the point. I assert that all Alabama has done is gone through the motions of killing someone when it gains them nothing.

(And, as a note to Rappaccini here, Yes, that "nothing" includes the measure of "justice".)

 

[Rappaccini]

James Barney Hubbard was a murderer, no more and no less.

He was executed, by lethal injection, in the state of Alabama, his stay having been denied by the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

Justice is served.

 

[Tiassa]

If only justice were so ritualistic.

Of course, then it would be a religion.

I hadn't realized justice was such an empty and worthless concept. Thank you for pointing that out, Rappaccini.

 

[Rappaccini]

While justice is, of course, arbitrary, it is by no means empty or worthless. It is worth as much as society is willing to invest in it, and currently society puts great stock in it. Much greater stock, by far, than is put into religion.

What is it, exactly, you wanted to learn, Tiassa?
As I've view it, you've attributed qualities like vengefulness to a body that is simply fulfilling its fundamental modus operandi.

 

[robtex]

As I've view it, you've attributed qualities like vengefulness to a body that is simply fulfilling its fundamental modus operandi.

You lost me on that statement. Please paraphrase and explain. You also seem to interchange vengence and justice as parallel actions and parallel justificiations. Am I understanding you incorrectly is is vengence --revenge you justification for the death penalty?

 

[Rappaccini]

How or where have I interchanged vengeance and justice? Pinpoint the statement, if you can. I must've been terribly confusing at some point... for you to be thinking this.


The sentence you've quoted addresses Tiassa's suggestion that vengeance could be the only reason for the execution, responding that the justice system does not function with concepts like "vengeance" or "gain," but only with arbitrary rules in mind.


This sentence has little or nothing to do with my justification of the death penalty. My justification, which is only my own, mind you, was stated earlier.