Judas and Jesus... allies?

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Esoteric

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Registered Senior Member
Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'

WASHINGTON (AP) -- For 2,000 years Judas has been reviled for betraying Jesus. Now a newly translated ancient document seeks to tell his side of the story.

The "Gospel of Judas" tells a far different tale from the four gospels in the New Testament. It portrays Judas as a favored disciple who was given special knowledge by Jesus -- and who turned him in at Jesus' request.

"You will be cursed by the other generations -- and you will come to rule over them," Jesus tells Judas in the document made public Thursday.

The text, one of several ancient documents found in the Egyptian desert in 1970, was preserved and translated by a team of scholars. It was made public in an English translation by the National Geographic Society.

Religious and lay readers alike will debate the meaning and truth of the manuscript.

But it does show the diversity of beliefs in early Christianity, said Marvin Meyer, professor of Bible studies at Chapman University in Orange, California.

The text, in the Coptic language, was dated to about the year 300 A.D. and is a copy of an earlier Greek version.

A "Gospel of Judas" was first mentioned around 180 A.D. by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon, in what is now France. The bishop denounced the manuscript as heresy because it differed from mainstream Christianity. The actual text had been thought lost until this discovery.

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton University, said, "The people who loved, circulated and wrote down these gospels did not think they were heretics."

Added Rev. Donald Senior, president of the Catholic Theological Union of Chicago: "Let a vigorous debate on the significance of this fascinating ancient text begin."

Senior expressed doubt that the new gospel will rival the New Testament, but he allowed that opinions are likely to vary.

Craig Evans, a professor at Acadia Divinity College in Nova Scotia, Canada, said New Testament explanations for Judas' betrayal range from money to the influence of Satan.

"Perhaps more now can be said," he commented. The document "implies that Judas only did what Jesus wanted him to do."

Christianity in the ancient world was much more diverse than it is now, with a number of gospels circulating in addition to the four that were finally collected into the New Testament, noted Bart Ehrman, chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina.

Eventually, one point of view prevailed and the others were declared heresy, he said, including the Gnostics who believed that salvation depended on secret knowledge that Jesus imparted, particularly to Judas.

The newly translated document's text begins: "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot."

In a key passage Jesus tells Judas, "You will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me."

This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, the scholars said.

"Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom," Jesus says to Judas, singling him out for special status. "Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star."

The text ends with Judas turning Jesus over to the high priests and does not include any mention of the crucifixion or resurrection.

National Geographic said the author believed that Judas Iscariot alone understood the true significance of Jesus' teachings. The author of the text is not named in the writings.

Discovered in 1970, the papyrus was kept in a safety deposit box for several years and began to deteriorate before conservators restored it. More than 1,000 pieces had to be reassembled.

The material will be donated to the Coptic museum in Cairo, Egypt, so it can be available to all scholars said Ted Waitt of the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, which helped finance the restoration.

In addition to radio carbon dating, the manuscript was also authenticated through ink analysis, multispectral imaging, content and linguistic style and handwriting style, National Geographic reported.
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/06/gospel.judas.ap/index.html
 
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Esoteric said:
Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/06/gospel.judas.ap/index.html
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Since it dates to the third century it can hardly be considered to have been written by Judas. It is either a third centurt hoax or merely a copy and either way can no more itself be taken as evidence for an actual historical Jesus than any of the other gospels for which the earliest texts we have were also written to late to be considered actual evidence for an actual historical Jesus.
 
Either way, it holds at least as much weight as any given part of the new testament.
 
I've been saying that for years. Jesus could not have picked a disloyal disciple.
 
Medicine Woman said:
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M*W: Clearly cosmological, not literal.
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it's not just cosmological. although man is a microcosm of the universe.

did you know that judas and jesus is associated with the same astrological sign, except judas is the lower form, the scorpion, while jesus is the higher form, the eagle. serpent turns into a rod. scorpion turns into an eagle. lifeforce turns into wisdom.
 
Alright, I understand that (but would that really "shake the foundation" of Christianity? sure it would change a few things... and the whole Passion movie would be slightly wrong :p) but does it say anything else? It cant just be a page long lol... does the rest generally agree with the other Gospels? does it add stories? leave out stories?
 
Provita said:
Just wondering... what else does the Gospel of Judas say?
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M*W: For god's sake, Provita. It's been on CNN for two days now. You can access it there just like the rest of us did.
 
Provita said:
Alright, I understand that (but would that really "shake the foundation" of Christianity? sure it would change a few things... and the whole Passion movie would be slightly wrong :p) but does it say anything else? It cant just be a page long lol... does the rest generally agree with the other Gospels? does it add stories? leave out stories?
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M*W: Get off your lazy ass, Provita, and look it up yourself! Do some research. I can already see that it's going to be a fabrication and maybe a hoax. It's dated to 300s AD, when the Romans were rife in their biblical forgeries.
 
Researched it for an hour already before i asked Medicine Woman, and none said anything except for what you all have said... It tells the story of Judas as not being a betrayer but only following Jesus's command... etc. etc. ... but I want to know what ELSE does it contain... it cannot just contain that, or else its a 1-5 page gospel... and I was wondering if anyone knew of any websites that have published more info on it... sorry for asking, and sorry for being a "lazy ass" for wanting to know more about something that i couldnt find...

Another example of mindless insults...
 
While I don't take any gospels to be accurate representations of history, such a manuscript would it seems make explicit what was already implicit in the story: that Judas was a necessary role rather than a traitor or villain.

If Jesus had to die on the cross after being betrayed, it only makes sense that somebody would have to betray him. The Bible, in proposing the omniscience of its god and accepting as valid the notion of prophecy, implicitly endorses predeterminism in which case Judas could not possibly have been a traitor/villain as we understand those terms today.
 
invert_nexus said:
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_judas/#English Translation
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In the comments in this link , it is said that the gospel of Judas teaches us
that this world and nature is created by a lower evil deity, and that there is a higher good deity. Also that Judas helped the soul of Jesus to escape the human flesh, so the soul could go to the reign of the good deity; so Judas was actually helping Jesus by having his body killed, so the soul could escape this world, that is created by an evil deity.

I have just finished reading a lot of old scriptures from the 12.th , 13th and 14.th century about the religions of the Cathars - the cathars have exactly these 2 cornerstones in their religion :
1) an evil God that created this world and a higher good God that reigns over paradise.
2) Your soul is inside a body (the body belongs to this world) and if you live and die in the right way , your soul will be free to enter the paradise of the higher good God. It is a good thing to finally die and let the soul escape the world of the evil deity..
I am sitting here with a feeling that the cathar religion could originate from
the gospel of Judas.


This gospel of Judas has been radiocarbondated to year 280 , but the text was certainly known by Ireneus from Lyon in year 180 , and might very well be from the first century . Lyon is by the way not far from the areas of the cathars in southern france.

Then again the impact of this gospel might not be very big today - the church of today will never accept the duality of Gods , though they have stopped burning heretics on the stake.....
 
The Idea is is that Judas was asked by Jesus (against his will) to betray hi, I can half believe this story however that would mean the other gospels lied so its about 29v1 on judas being evil or not
 
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