Jim Crow is back and this time he's. . . hating on gays?

Mystech

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Registered Senior Member
BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- Same-sex couples from states where gay marriage is banned cannot legally marry in Massachusetts, the state's highest court ruled Thursday.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/30/gay.marriage.ap/index.html

A little context for this summary: Shortly after same-sex unions were legalized in Massachusets (in 2004 I believe it was) Govenor Mitt Romney furiously began looking for ways to get around the court decision that the Massachusets state constiution invalidates laws against same-sex unions. After a proposed amendment to the state constitution failed he started getting very creative and orderd state clerks to enforce a Jim Crow era law (from 1913, spacificaly) which allows the state to deny a marriage licence to anyone who is not a resident of the state of Massachusets.

The law was origionlay designed to prevent mixed race couples who lived in states which had banned interacial marriages from comming into Massachusets to get married. Though it eventualy fell into disuse as the country's sociall climate matured a bit, the law was never officialy removed from the books.

Well time has passed, that particular law hasn't been enforced in decades, and most anyone looking at it in it's proper context would likely simply shake their head and feel that feeling of superiority over our decendants that most contemporary people tend to feel whenever they look back at long gone absurdities that our great grandparents used to take seriously.

Things, of course, haven't changed that much as we see the law now being taken out, dusted off and put to essentialy the same political use that it was intended for in the first place. It's not so hard to see the irony - we all thought that we were past this sort of thing, that we weren't all so horribly bigoted and petty as our nation was in generations past, but here we are, using the same tools for the same purpose, and I suppose telling ourselves that this time it's different because we're dealing with the gays, not the blacks.

Well, as they say, the more things change the more they stay the same. I think that seeing how well this ruling goes over will be a fairly decent indicator of how far we've really come in terms of social progress and enlightenment. Did anything really sink in, or is the white-wash finaly peeling off of our collective uglyness?
 
Why should people whose values don't accept homosexuality be forced to have it in their communities? We've already got enough gay communities.
 
Why should non-racists be forced to put up with racist morons? We've already got enough racist moron communities.
 
android said:
Why should people whose values don't accept homosexuality be forced to have it in their communities? We've already got enough gay communities.

The government should allow same-sex marriage because, quite frankly, there's no good reason not to. The vast majority of people haven't got a thing against homosexuals or homosexual relationships, they pay their taxes the same as anyone else, and they already engage in marriage practices - committed exclusive life long pair-bonds. Let's make it official and just give them the legal rights that we as a society already long ago decided are deserving of such a union.

As for homosexuals in "your" community, there's absolutely no stopping it. There is no "yours" and "theirs" homosexuals aren't some separate race, they're our friends and acquaintances, our co-workers and bosses, they're our brothers and sisters. Despite what bigoted weirdoes such as yourself may think they don't come from some foreign land to try and corrupt your morals, they're just people, the same as any, trying to get by without people spitting on them too much. In practice you’ve got about as much say over their relationships as they have over yours, we should just make the legal reality mach that practical one.
 
Furthermore, I resent the implication that same-sex marriage impacts you or anyone else aside from homosexuals one single iota. I'd like to ask you what exactly you think the steaks here are - what changes for you if same sex marriage is allowed, say nation wide? What price has Massachusetts paid thus far, or Canada for that matter? To the best of my knowledge Jesus hasn’t come down and cast them all into hell.
 
'As long as you pay your taxes and serve in my army, you may live in my country.'
-Friedrich II von Hohenzollern.

It should be the same here. As long as they pay thier taxes, minorities of any and all kinds should be allowed to live here in peace.
 
android said:
Why should people whose values don't accept homosexuality be forced to have it in their communities? We've already got enough gay communities.
Why should people whose values don't accept being around Black people be forced to be around them on a daily basis in their communities? We've already got enough ghettos.

Why should gay people be confined to their concentra-- I mean, communities, if people think they're icky?
 
Same-sex marriages affect the tax structure. Married couples are allowed to file jointly, and receive a tax break for it. Who knows how increasing the amount of married people in this country within a very short time by a tremendous amount will affect the tax structure. It is very possible that the marriage benefit will be diluted. I'm not saying that I'm against same-sex marriage, but allowing a nation-wide sweep of same-sex marriages can have economic effects. And being married, that does affect me.

Not only that, but there is no constitutional right to marriage. Therefore, the national government has no right to force states to recognize same-sex marriages. States should and are as sovereigns allowed to regulate marriage within their borders. States are allowed to set an age limit, a closeness limit (brother-sister, father-daughter, etc.), testing, inter alia.

The Mass. law is not unconstitutional. Mass. has a right to regulate within their borders. Their first goal is to provide protection, access, freedom, etc. within its borders for its citizens. Next it helps to protect its citizens outside its borders. And last, it seeks to protect non-Mass. citizens within its borders. That system has worked for over 200 years.

Max
 
Same-sex marriages affect the tax structure. Married couples are allowed to file jointly, and receive a tax break for it. Who knows how increasing the amount of married people in this country within a very short time by a tremendous amount will affect the tax structure. It is very possible that the marriage benefit will be diluted. I'm not saying that I'm against same-sex marriage, but allowing a nation-wide sweep of same-sex marriages can have economic effects. And being married, that does affect me.
The adverse effects would be temporary and minimal. We'll be fine.

Not only that, but there is no constitutional right to marriage. Therefore, the national government has no right to force states to recognize same-sex marriages. States should and are as sovereigns allowed to regulate marriage within their borders. States are allowed to set an age limit, a closeness limit (brother-sister, father-daughter, etc.), testing, inter alia.
Why should gay couples be denied the opportunity to file taxes jointly, as well as be denied the many, many other rights that marriage grants you?

The Mass. law is not unconstitutional. Mass. has a right to regulate within their borders. Their first goal is to provide protection, access, freedom, etc. within its borders for its citizens. Next it helps to protect its citizens outside its borders. And last, it seeks to protect non-Mass. citizens within its borders. That system has worked for over 200 years.
How are the citizens of Massachusetts harmed in any way if people come to the state to get married?
 
Athelwulf said:
The adverse effects would be temporary and minimal. We'll be fine.

Why should gay couples be denied the opportunity to file taxes jointly, as well as be denied the many, many other rights that marriage grants you?

How are the citizens of Massachusetts harmed in any way if people come to the state to get married?

First, the adverse effects of a million marriages above and beyond the norm in a single year would be far from minimal, and you cannot know the effects that it would cause, therefore you cannot state the effects temporally. This thread was pushing for a nation-wide grant of a right not recognized by the constitution. I don't know exactly the figures of the number of homosexual couples that would want to marry, but it would definitely be significant. Not to mention the number of divorces would grow in proportion (at least).

Second, I never said that gays should be denied the opportunity to file taxes jointly. That is a decision for a democratic and sovereign state to decide.

Third, what other rights does marriage grant? I'll tell you, but they are far from beneficial rights. They are rights that complicate, such as property division which is basically done two different ways depending on which state you live in--not a very good thing at all. The right to marriage allows the right to divorce. If you have ever been through a divorce, then you know it is horrible. A boyfriend-boyfriend split is much better than a divorce. There are also some contract rights that further complicate things. Then, depending on the state, legal marriage can invoke common-law marriage. This is a costly determination. All of these "benefits" of marriage unreasonably tie up the legal system and cost much more money than they are worth.

Last, (but it plays in with the third as well) the Mass. citizens are having their due process rights strained. If you dramatically increase the number of marriages and divorces each year, you are harming the legal process. If you allow people from other states to take advantage of your resources, but give nothing in return, this is a negative effect. Now the dockets are significantly increased, meaning that one case that would normally take a few months to litigate could take a few years to litigate fully. Time means money.

I don't want anyone to put words in my mouth. I am not taking a moral stance at all. But I'm tired of hearing that it wouldn't affect anyone. That just isn't true. There are consequences to the legal system. I'm also not trying to speculate on all the possible ramification or the extent that each will play. I am stimulating discussion by bringing forth issues that the layperson just isn't aware of.

Max
 
First, the adverse effects of a million marriages above and beyond the norm in a single year would be far from minimal, and you cannot know the effects that it would cause, therefore you cannot state the effects temporally. This thread was pushing for a nation-wide grant of a right not recognized by the constitution. I don't know exactly the figures of the number of homosexual couples that would want to marry, but it would definitely be significant. Not to mention the number of divorces would grow in proportion (at least).
The norm can't be that small a number that a million or so gay couples could make a difference. There's almost 300 million people in the US. I would make a rough guess that 100 million of them are married. That makes 50 million couples. Adding one million more, or even five million more, isn't that big a number.

We'll be fine. Really. We were fine when interracial marriage was allowed. We'll be fine when gay marriage is allowed.

Second, I never said that gays should be denied the opportunity to file taxes jointly. That is a decision for a democratic and sovereign state to decide.
It's easier for everyone to grant marriage than to set up special workarounds, not to mention more fair.

Third, what other rights does marriage grant? I'll tell you, but they are far from beneficial rights. They are rights that complicate, such as property division which is basically done two different ways depending on which state you live in--not a very good thing at all.
There's a site that gives about a hundred positive rights that gay couples currently have no access to. I'd have to find it though.

The right to marriage allows the right to divorce. If you have ever been through a divorce, then you know it is horrible. A boyfriend-boyfriend split is much better than a divorce.
So is a boyfriend-girlfriend split. Not a good argument.

There are also some contract rights that further complicate things. Then, depending on the state, legal marriage can invoke common-law marriage. This is a costly determination. All of these "benefits" of marriage unreasonably tie up the legal system and cost much more money than they are worth.
Homosexuals shouldn't have to put up with not being able to marry each other simply because marriage needs to be reformed.

I don't want anyone to put words in my mouth. I am not taking a moral stance at all. But I'm tired of hearing that it wouldn't affect anyone. That just isn't true. There are consequences to the legal system. I'm also not trying to speculate on all the possible ramification or the extent that each will play. I am stimulating discussion by bringing forth issues that the layperson just isn't aware of.
It may effect others in that way, but it really isn't that much, and it's not a good enough reason to unfairly deny any minority something that others are given freely.
 
MadMaxReborn said:
I'm not saying that I'm against same-sex marriage, but allowing a nation-wide sweep of same-sex marriages can have economic effects. And being married, that does affect me.

Well first off, don't lie, clearly you are against same-sex marriage, and likely homosexual rights in general, or you wouldn't be making such silly arguments against it on the spot in a fairly transparent reactionary tone.

2nd, from an economic standpoint, allowing same sex marriages will have no significant impact on taxation - in many places married couples actually wind up paying more in taxes than do and being that percentage of married couples within our population are at an all time low, presently, and it's unlikely that allowing same sex marriage would make a significant enough impact to bring it up to levels which this country has never seen before.

If hesitating to allow same-sex marriages is valid for reasons of taxation, by your reckoning, then perhaps we could also re-ban interracial marriages to further increase the tax-flow to our state and federal governments?

First, the adverse effects of a million marriages above and beyond the norm in a single year would be far from minimal, and you cannot know the effects that it would cause,

Actually, yes he can. Same sex marriages have been legal in both Massachusetts and parts of Canada for a few years now, and neither country or state has experienced any sort of catastrophic shock in funding as a result. The numbers simply aren't there - same sex couples make up far less than ten percent of the population, and the tax savings involved in filing jointly are themselves negligible in most states.

Same sex-marriage has already proven itself to be of no real financial burden to state governments. If it were, then you should severely hope that this nation never returns to the marriage levels we experienced in the 1950s which likely exceed levels that we can expect to see if same-sex marriages were legalized nation wide in a single year.

Furthermore, the implication that same-sex couples must pass some special test, or prove their worth to conservatives is a fairly ridiculous angle to come at this angle from. I have no idea why different standards must be applied, and ridiculous demands and benchmarks that no one else must pass should be set for same-sex couples. I resent your implication that same sex-couples should be forced to pay higher taxes to subsidize straight conservatives life styles. As tax paying members of society same-sex couples should rightly benefit from the ability to enter a legal marriage just the same as any heterosexual couple.

Not only that, but there is no constitutional right to marriage. Therefore, the national government has no right to force states to recognize same-sex marriages.

I'm not sure how strong an argument this is. I should think that the spirit of the constitution in it's guarantee of protection of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness would reasonably cover the right to let an oppressive majority dictate your relationship status, and single you out arbitrarily for limitations on how much you're allowed to get back out of society and our government. That and the letter of the 14th amendment makes a pretty strong case for equal marriage protection. But then court cases already working toward the Supreme Court will hopefully clear things up for all of us.

[/quote]The Mass. law is not unconstitutional.[/QUOTE]

This may well be true, at least it's never yet been contested as such, but one must admit that the irony is sweet, and that discrimination against homosexuals is presently the soul purpose of it's recently re-instated enforcement.

You can't make a rule-of-law issue out of this one, the real agenda is too blatant.

Not to mention the number of divorces would grow in proportion

Actually we haven't seen this just yet - but yeah I'll admit, give it some time and same-sex marriage rates will likely match that of heterosexual couples. As for the initial generation, however, I doubt we'll see the divorce rates of homosexual couples reaching that of same-sex couples within our life-time. My reasoning behind this is simply that homosexuals will value the institution of marriage considerably more than the average heterosexual couple in our society today simply by virtue of the fact that it was denied to them and had to be fought for. After that generation which had to fight for it gets older, though, I imagine we'll find that divorce rates begin to increase to match heterosexual couples as more and more homosexuals take the right for granted just as heterosexuals do.

To date, of the more than 6,000 same-sex couples married in Massachusetts in the past few years, only one couple has divorced.

As far as same-sex couples marrying in Massachusetts in our current climate - I also doubt we'd find many divorces at all, there's really no reason to divorce. In their home states, these couples would not be considered married because of their home state's bans on same-sex marriage - and of course they would not be filing taxes for Massachusetts, essentially they'd have nothing but a piece of paper that they could then use to contest their own states same-sex marriage bans based on the Constitution’s full faith in credit clause, which may eventually topple individual state bans on same-sex marriage.

That is why this old law is being dusted off and re-informed in Massachusetts. Governor Mit Romney doesn't want his state to be providing fuel for civil rights activists to begin overturning marriage bans in other states.

Third, what other rights does marriage grant?

There are literally hundreds. Some of the most important being joint property and estate rights - trust me it sucks to have your partner die, and a judge throw out a living will that leaves everything to you, only to hand over your partner's entire estate to the greedy and homophobic family that disowned him years ago when they learned he was gay - legal issues involving divorce, of course, as well as child custody, and even health insurance and hospital visitation rights in many cases.

The right to marriage allows the right to divorce. If you have ever been through a divorce, then you know it is horrible. A boyfriend-boyfriend split is much better than a divorce.

Ugly as a divorce may be, it's a bit arrogant to make the decision that marriage just isn't for some people because of it's looming threat while you yourself enjoy the rights and the risk. But then I'm into that whole self-determinism thing. Maybe you're the sort who feels more comfortable with a dictator making all of life's most intimate and personal choices for you?

Last, (but it plays in with the third as well) the Mass. citizens are having their due process rights strained. If you dramatically increase the number of marriages and divorces each year, you are harming the legal process.

Okay, I apologize for earlier accusing you of trying to turn this into a pure law and order issue, clearly you haven't got much of a grasp of what that sort of thing is. How exactly would a few more marriages harm the legal process? You know, long drawn out money laundering trials clog up the courts and cost a lot of money - should we maybe just let white collar criminals go? Come to think of it non-violent drug offenders have been demonstrated time and again to be tying up our courts and clogging our jails, perhaps we should simply stop charging drug offenders simply because it's a hassle to deal justice?

I'm terribly sorry if civil rights make a little bit more paper work for some state clerks, but somehow I think this issue goes beyond minor deviations in their daily work load.

I am not taking a moral stance at all. But I'm tired of hearing that it wouldn't affect anyone.

But you would like too, wouldn't you? I'm sorry if I seem overly presumptuous (and I may well be) but I've seen this sort of conglomeration of very minor silly arguments thrown together in the past, and every time it has wound up being someone who was trying to be sneaky and not reveal right away that he objected to same-sex marriage on moral or religious grounds. The problem, of course, is that it comes across as being very hard to believe that someone actually would oppose same-sex marriage based on reasons which focus on bureaucratic process and paper work. Most people tend to think that government should work in favor of it's people, not try to make people fit it's paperwork better. . . especially conservatives. That's why I find your claim to no moral qualm to be slightly difficult to swallow.
 
Amazing, I have to say that once I finished reading that, I was absolutely amazed. For you to say that I have lied, that I do have something against same-sex marriages is ridiculous. I have never even implied that stance. I was responding directly to the question of "what effect will it have on you (me)?" That's all. I was not responding to the question of "are you for or against same-sex marriages?" If you have animosity against people who are against same-sex marriage, take it up with them, but don't project that onto me. If you find where I said otherwise, then I want to see a direct quote! If not, then don't attack me at all.

My tone is far from transparent or reactionary. I have never heard of the statements that I raised before, and I find it quite safe to say that almost no one else has either, so how is it transparent in any way. Again, that just reflects that you are projecting something onto me that I have not said or implied.

If you want to have a constitutional debate, I will set up a thread and we can have it there. I've been through law school, I've tried cases, I've met the Supreme Court Justices. I have lived these issues.

Marriage is not a constitutional right. It doesn't even fall within the penumbra of the amendments. Do you want cases to back that up? I'll give them to and let you read them. I'm not going to spoon feed you though.

You are still making a large-scale conclusion based on small-scale data. I could care less who is taxed what. It is simply amazing that you want to project onto me that I want gays to be taxed more. I could care less! My point is, is that you cannot prove, nor I what effects a nation-wide acceptance on same-sex marriages can do to the economic structure. You can only speculate the same as me. And to take such offense to my speculations is mindblowing.

Ugly as a divorce may be, it's a bit arrogant to make the decision that marriage just isn't for some people because of it's looming threat while you yourself enjoy the rights and the risk. But then I'm into that whole self-determinism thing. Maybe you're the sort who feels more comfortable with a dictator making all of life's most intimate and personal choices for you?

Who made a decision? I just pointed out that for anyone, boyfriend-girlfriend, boyfriend-boyfriend a non-marriage breakup is far easier than a divorce. Where is the arrogance and where was the decision?

I want to point out that you brought the anger and resentment into this. I will not respond to such a long or similar reply again. If you can make a real argument based on my statement that same-sex marriage could financially affect me, then go ahead, and I will respond. If you want a constitutional debate, then you have stepped right into my arena and I will gladly respond. But if you make an assumption that isn't true about me and my character, I will leave it for the world to make their own decision on what your "true motive" was, to argue a point or to attack. Simple as that.

Max
 
A very weak argument, max, and again I'll say it's pretty transparent. I'm also not buying the lawyer who's been before the Supreme Court thing - and it's moot anyhow, you're not offering a legal opinion, you're offering a reactionary political stance.

It does not nessisarily follow that if same-sex marriage is allowed then taxes will go up, sorry. If you are in fact a lawyer I can't imagine you're a very good one.
 
Hapsburg said:
You think this guy is some kinda BaronMax clone?
I'm suspicious, though honestly he's not that bad. If he were to start talking about a plague of gays asking straight men on the street if they want blowjobs then I'll worry. He is starting out with the same genreal straw-grasping leap of logic type argument, though.
 
Who will think about the children?

Android said:

Why should people whose values don't accept homosexuality be forced to have it in their communities? We've already got enough gay communities.

Last I heard, the United States of America is supposed to be a "free" country. Why should people whose values don't accept homosexuality matter any more than anyone else?

Yesterday, for the first time in over a decade, I entered a Wal-Mart. Inasmuch as there exists an argument about "corporate America" destroying family-owned and locally-run enterprises, I think what bugs me about that is the apparent glee with which many of the same people who bemoan the diminishing of "small-town", or "Middle American", or "family" values being assaulted by "Hollywood elite", "morally bankrupt" musicians, "liberal elititist" authors, or even "liberal" Christianity seem to cheer the advance of conglomerate and corporate culture; much like how many of the same people who fretted over Communism's potential to suck the "diversity" out of life (Utopia, if achieved, is just too frightfully boring an idea for some) seem to cheer the same issues they pretend to fear when corporations undertake the same notions (e.g. health, education, retirement).

But this doesn't have much to do with gay marriage, does it? Stay with me, then.

No, my complaint with Wal-Mart has very little to do with the usual corporate-ugliness argument. Instead, it is enough to say that Wal-Mart, so aptly satirized in King of the Hill (as "MegaLoMart"), is unquestionably the worst customer experience I have ever endured. Dingy, narrow aisles lend sensations of both claustrophobia and pure chaos, although the latter is partially the result of the density of frighteningly stupid people patronizing the establishment. The foil-attired, stark white, sterilie quietude serving as a poster child for the let's-all-fear-Utopia-to-death crowd seems paradisaical compared to a trip to Wal-Mart. Truly, I found myself appreciating antidepressants; a cigarette--actually, half a cigarette, given the rain and my desire to get the hell out of there--calmed me, whereas without an SSRI permeating my brain, I might have simply curled up in the backseat and trembled quietly for a half-hour or so. I mean, for all the technology devoted to expediting the check-out process, how could it possibly be so slow? In addition, listening to these two women in front of me in line chatter about some event they were planning, and doing so by reviewing the things they had seen in Wal-Mart that they wanted to buy ... it would not have been so bad except that it took several minutes for the checker to process a light cartload. And for heaven's sake--and if we're going to be simply petty about prejudices--why do those truly pear-shaped women insist on wearing tight pants? To borrow and paraphrase, why should people whose values don't appreciate terminal hostility toward aesthetics be forced to see those two great whales suffocating in black denim? And then there was the other woman ... "Look, ladies: just don't."

Really, I'm working toward the point. If you can't see it coming, though ....

Now, I'm all behind certain groups and services like Vadis Northwest, who work to help people with certain disabilities--including and especially the developmental--be productive both for themselves and society. But in addition to the noticeable presence of developmental disability among Wal-Mart's labor force, this store was thick with employees who qualify as what many Americans colloquially refer to as "retards". You know, not those who have something wrong with this or that chromosome, but those for whom the idiot-gene is not only dominant, but hyperactive. This brand of "retard", those folks who have no genetic disability or have suffered a crime or accident diminishing their brain capacity, in other words, people who have no excuse for their stupidity, not only made up the majority of the Wal-Mart human presence they were also the primary patronage. You could tell the remaining customer minority easily: they were visibly frightened or embarrassed. Personally, I had a hard time keeping my jaw closed. In all my advocacy of communitarian responses to poverty, I cannot recall ever having imagined things were this bad. It is nearly ineffable.

"Nothing shocks me," I used to say. That holds true for recent disasters: Hurricane Katrina, the Indonesia tsunami, the 2004 general election in the United States, and even 9/11. But the tales I tell elsewhere at Sciforums of the state of my personal life have broken that motto. And so, frankly, does Wal-Mart.

So what is my point? (Who still doesn't know what's coming?)

Look, we know from examining issues of poverty both in the United States and around the world that the poor tend to reproduce more than other economic strata. We also know from examining issues of sexuality and birth control that the uneducated reproduce more than other educational strata. To be blunt, look the f@ck at Africa. Insidious birth rates, sickening infant mortality. It's an economic black hole right now. And there still persists in many communities devastating superstitions about sexual intercourse, sexual reproduction, and sexually-transmitted diseases. Show of hands: If the cure for AIDS really was to have sex with a virgin, who wouldn't want to get the disease? (I grew up in an American culture that regarded sex with a virgin female as a holy grail of sorts, so maybe I'm overstating the point in that dimension.)

But seriously, look at poor communities in the United States, if you want.

The poor and uneducated are the burden of any government, and also of the world's leading religious movements. And yet, with or without the capitalist pig-dogs making it harder on them, the poor and uneducated are simply breeding faster than society is yet prepared to accommodate.

Perhaps I should be writing, "the poor, and the uneducated". Because more than the poor who are uneducated, I fear those who, simply, are stupid. Those, as such, who don't have an excuse.

And, quite frankly, folks can whine about the "impact" of gay marriage for however much they think their cowardice is worth, but we simply cannot ignore the adverse effects of irresponsible reproduction. Nor can we ignore the fact that every human reproduction--and that includes the irresponsible, for those who actually need reminding--is the result of a heterosexual union. Sperm, egg. Male, female. XY, XX. Period. Yes, it is reported in recent years that we can engineer reproduction in a test tube with material from two ova, but we can make an issue out of that when the first les baby is born.

So, for now, why should anyone have to tolerate the ill results of heterosexual unions? We've already got enough stupid people.

What? Who didn't see it coming? Show of hands?
 
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