jews and salvation according to the bible

[robtex]

In the Bible the Jews are God's chosen people.
but the Jews reject the notion as Jesus as their savior.
One cannot enter heaven in the Bible unless one accepts Jesus as their savior and asks forgiveness for their sins.


According to Christians are the Jews (god's chosen people according to the Christian Bible) going to Heaven even if they do not accept Jesus as their savior?

Why or why not?

 

[moonlight]

i don't think so coz they killed Jesus and they didn't believe him anyway... they WERE God's chosen people according to the Quran.

 

[robtex]

Moonlight I am asking cause I don't know...where in the Quran does it say the Jews are God's chosen people?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: The very name 'Is ra el' means 'God's chosen people.' How convenient.

 

[surenderer]

Hello,
God in the Koran does speak of Jews being "chosen" but their actions removed them from God's grace:


We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations. (Surah 45:16)


Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others. (Surah 2:47 )


But this was before they "fell from grace" because of thei constant wrong doings......peace to you

 

[path]

Here is some more

002.087
YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.

002.088
YUSUFALI: They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word: we need no more)." Nay, Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.
PICKTHAL: And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe.
SHAKIR: And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.

002.089
YUSUFALI: And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
PICKTHAL: And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.

002.090
YUSUFALI: Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: Evil is that for which they sell their souls: that they should disbelieve in that which Allah hath revealed, grudging that Allah should reveal of His bounty unto whom He will of His slaves. They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.
SHAKIR: Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.

There's lots in there you can see for yourself here

 

[surenderer]

Here is some more



There's lots in there you can see for yourself here

It's important when one looks at what the Koran says about the Jews and Christians to distinguish between the Jews that Muslims were at war with at the time (sword verses) and how Jews were to be treated afterwards. A common tactic of non-muslims (not saying that is the case in Path's post) is to combine the two without letting the average reader know that there is a difference between the two.

 

[everneo]

002.087
YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.

Wow, holy spirit was mentioned in quran also ?!! Now, i m intrigued & fascinated by this 'Holy Spirit'. What is this/he/she ?

 

[path]

Is this difference in the way they are to be treated actually explained in the quran? You are right that wasn't my intention that's why I included several continuous suras and the link to the entire quran.

 

[anonymous2]

I find it interesting that it's claimed Jews are no longer God's people because they "fell from grace." If you look in the Hebrew scriptures, God seems to still manage to consider them his people even if most of them fell away (such as, I have kept 400 people away from worshipping Baal or something along those lines). Then, some Christians claim Jews aren't really God's people anymore because of such and such, when there are Christians (or alleged) who also sin and do a bunch of bad things. So, do we now say that because of this, Christians are no longer God's people? Then, Muslims claim that Jews AND Christians are no longer God's people, because of such and such. Well, can we say that Muslims or alleged Muslims are no longer God's people because of the bad things they do?

Bottom line is: Saying the Jews are no longer God's people seems, to me, like a convenient replacement theology. I suppose I can now say that none of these are God's people, it is rather the Baha'is which are.

Note, I'm not saying I necessarily believe the Jews are God's chosen, I just find it somewhat humorous how the latter religions try to say, "no no, WE are God's people now."

 

[DoctorNO]

It's important when one looks at what the Koran says about the Jews and Christians to distinguish between the Jews that Muslims were at war with at the time (sword verses) and how Jews were to be treated afterwards. A common tactic of non-muslims (not saying that is the case in Path's post) is to combine the two without letting the average reader know that there is a difference between the two.

Does the quran truly distinguish between the two? Is there a verse that clearly gives such message without you having to insert your personal interpretations?

 

[surenderer]

Does the quran truly distinguish between the two? Is there a verse that clearly gives such message without you having to insert your personal interpretations?

And there-in lies the problem......to the ignorant they will use what the Koran says about early Jews to do harm to Jews today while to the knowledgable(which is the overwelming majority) they realize the difference. Thats how people like Osama get followers by keeping his followers ignorant while those who dont follow him can see through him (in my opinion)

 

[anonymous2]

And there-in lies the problem......to the ignorant they will use what the Koran says about early Jews to do harm to Jews today while to the knowledgable(which is the overwelming majority) they realize the difference. Thats how people like Osama get followers by keeping his followers ignorant while those who dont follow him can see through him (in my opinion)

Surrenderer, may I ask, if God really inspired the Qu'ran, wouldn't he make it completely clear so there would be no misunderstanding, something like, "Even though there was fighting between Muslims and Jews, and there are verses supporting fighting between Muslims and Jews, this was something unfortunate and unavoidable. In the future, let there be no conflict between Muslims and Jews unless it's unavoidable, and please read those verses which mention fighting between Muslims and Jews in its historical context."

Now, if there is such a verse, then I guess I'm wrong.

 

[DoctorNO]

And there-in lies the problem......to the ignorant they will use what the Koran says about early Jews to do harm to Jews today while to the knowledgable(which is the overwelming majority) they realize the difference. Thats how people like Osama get followers by keeping his followers ignorant while those who dont follow him can see through him (in my opinion)

The root of the problem lies in Mohammad’s habit of making blanket statements and generalizations. Yes he was initially tolerant of the Jews. But later on in the writing of the Quran his views changed and generalized the jews as the enemies of the muslims. There was no specifics, there was no excemptions, just some sweeping statements that naturally implicates all the jews of all types. Even in the Hadiths Mohammad showed no mercy to the Jews. In one tribe he killed all the males and enslaved the rest. In another scene he had driven away the Jews.

Oh by the way, Im not sure if you are a Quran-only muslim as your nick suggests. But if you happen to follow the Sunnahs, I would like to invoke the muslim claim that the Hadiths give a clearer explanation of what is written in the Quran.

And so if you follow the sahih hadiths, could you give us a couple of ‘explanations’ from the hadiths regarding mohammad’s hostility to the jews as is found in some verses of the quran? Are there sayings of the prophets calling for humane treatment of peaceful and harmless jews?

Thanks.

 

[surenderer]

Surrenderer, may I ask, if God really inspired the Qu'ran, wouldn't he make it completely clear so there would be no misunderstanding, something like, "Even though there was fighting between Muslims and Jews, and there are verses supporting fighting between Muslims and Jews, this was something unfortunate and unavoidable. In the future, let there be no conflict between Muslims and Jews unless it's unavoidable, and please read those verses which mention fighting between Muslims and Jews in its historical context."

Now, if there is such a verse, then I guess I'm wrong.

Well it is a little more clear in Arabic....but for example:


And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit[29.46]


Now this was wriiten in the Surah called "The Spider" which was written after the Haji and after the Muslims wars with the Jewish tribes.But as I said 99% of all muslims know this which is why Jewish massacres at the hands of muslims isnt widespread (or even common) despite what the media tells you. Tell me where Jews are persecuted by muslims outside of Israel? there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world if they all hated Jews then it would be the Holocaust all over again dont you think?

 

[anonymous2]

Surrenderer, are you aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was in support of the Nazis? As with much history, I don't know if it can be definitely proven. Of course, you can claim that he wasn't "a true Muslim" if you like.

I didn't say that all Muslims want to kill Jews. I doubt that Jews in Iran, for instance, are treated all that well. Then again, you may not belive Shi'ites are true Muslims.

What I'm saying, is that, the Qu'ran doesn't seem ultimately clear. You quoted a verse which doesn't seem very antagonistic versus Jews, and there's another one which says there's no compulsion in religion.

What's in dispute, is how this correlates with the verses that speak of fighting non-Muslims.

I maintain that an omniscient, loving God would have made it all perfectly clear.

 

[DoctorNO]

Now this was wriiten in the Surah called "The Spider" which was written after the Haji and after the Muslims wars with the Jewish tribes.

Didnt this surah came up in the Fifth Period (from the tenth year of Mohammed's ministry to the Flight from Mecca) of Mohammad's career?