could jesus have become a mesiah through a new thought: peace to not just your fellow country men, but peace to all and no war. 
jesus:new thought makes mesiah
- Thread starter fusion4577
- Start date
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
That would be a powerful step in the advance of civilization, because it would be the transcendence of tribalism.
Tribalism has been the biggest obstacle to civilization, at least during the past couple of millennia. As pack-social animals we have the instinct to gather in tribes that distrust each other. We keep creating larger tribes--first villages, then cities, then nation-states, then countries, now hegemonies like the E.U.--but we have not overcome that instinct to be hostile to other tribes. In fact as the tribes become larger the problem gets worse, because a conflict between two of them spills out over an increasingly larger portion of the planet.
Jesus's teachings were an attempt to transcend tribalism but somewhere during the development of the religion that took his name, things went terribly wrong. Christendom became a tribe, and the hostility between it and other tribes was as strong as any other intertribal hostility. Perhaps stronger, because they believed they were fighting in the service of their gods.
Regardless of what Jesus (if he was real) said, Christians as a community--rather than as individuals--show themselves as being incapable of living up to his teachings. And that's what matters.
A "messiah" is literally a "leader." He leads his people to salvation by liberating them from their evil ways--specifically the hatred, vengeance and violence that characterizes tribal cultures. Jesus (if he was real) has failed to do that, so he has failed to qualify as a messiah.
could jesus have become a mesiah through a new thought: peace to not just your fellow country men, but peace to all and no war.
New thought? Jesus did say that, you can look it up
I really tried to give this some thought, now I am in awe of my own stupidity. The reason why. It is a question much like ; What was Jack thinking before he climbed the mountain to meet Jill. Were they pure or evil thoughts?
My point maybe they are both fairy tales. Seriously, the fonder of Catholicism who made water into wine and fed many with a couple of loathes of bread and now whose predecessors milk their congregations of their hard earned money week in and week out even though the church is the wealthiest and most financial business on the planet who contribute how much in tax to our community....hmmm...nothing!!! But they sure own some nice property.
I am not saying the church, churches do not do some good, obviously they do but even the devil gives evil people a place to be so they do not have to die and then be alone, right?
Not as poetic as Widom_Seeker but more succinct I am sure.
Just joking, Jesus is returning next week.
My point maybe they are both fairy tales. Seriously, the fonder of Catholicism who made water into wine and fed many with a couple of loathes of bread and now whose predecessors milk their congregations of their hard earned money week in and week out even though the church is the wealthiest and most financial business on the planet who contribute how much in tax to our community....hmmm...nothing!!! But they sure own some nice property.
I am not saying the church, churches do not do some good, obviously they do but even the devil gives evil people a place to be so they do not have to die and then be alone, right?
Not as poetic as Widom_Seeker but more succinct I am sure.
Just joking, Jesus is returning next week.
could jesus have become a mesiah through a new thought: peace to not just your fellow country men, but peace to all and no war.
I assume (because the apostle Matthew mentions Jesus as having a family) that His brothers and sisters also shared in the divinity of Christ, simply through being his siblings? I'm not a great Bible reader, but I've never found any mention in the Bible of reference to his siblings sharing His divinity ( in the sense of being his equal in terms of sanctity). Did any of the ancient scholars on religion, near to His time or subsequently, mention that possibility?
To tell the truth, I am Jewish. The messiah was supposed to accomplish several tasks during his life. None of them included healing the blind, walking on water, and fishing for gold. The accomplishments were supposed to me reuniting the state of Israel, making the dead come to life, and more. And quite frankly, the reason why the Jews never followed Jesus was because Jesus never did any of these things.
Jesus was nothing special, he just happened to become popular. Also, he said something about not making peace, setting the world on fire...
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
John Connellan
Valued Senior Member
Is there any evidence that a man named jesus, that did and said all these wonderful things, existed at all?
I thought that lots of the Jews followed Jesus. That's what John was doing; beating/harassing his fellow Jews who followed Jesus. But most Jews apparently did not follow Jesus. Then, several decades after Jesus was crucified, the Roman empire crushed the Jews, and tore down the Temple [leaving only the 'wailing wall', the original footing, because it was too massive to tear town]. By then, though, the converted Jews and other converts were scattered throughout the Roman empire, forming their new religion with a separate identity from judaism. Or so I've heard the story as detailed in history texts, etc.
*************
M*W: Neither. They were thoughts of obligatory service to whomever sent them up there, most likely, their mother who was forever blamed for Jack and Jill's psychological dysfunction lasting well into adulthood.
Jack went up the hill WITH Jill, not following her, to fetch the pail of water. Jack, being the clumsy and reckless kid he was, fell down and suffered what was later believed to be a mild head injury. Jill, raising the pail of water from the well, turned to elicit Jack's help since the pail was too heavy for just one of them. Just then, Jill noticed that Jack was lying unconscious at the foot of the hill. As she manuevered to carry the heavy pail of water down the hill by herself, Jill stumbled on a rock, dropped the pail of water, got drenched, and rolled the rest of the way down the hill only to break her right ankle. An ambulance was called, and the landlord was sued.
The first Christians were Jewish. I was watching a television program that stated the Roman people as we know them from ancient times no longer exist because when Rome fell all types of people poured into the Empire. Most likely from all over Europe but then many Sicilians and people from that region look darker as well.
Jones Jones
Registered Member
outside of the four gospels there is very little if any other mention of jesus anywhere ... so that a man named jesus lived and performed some special actions attracting attention, and thus became the centre for a thousand myths, may well be true; but beyond this what is there of solid evidence for his existence?
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
It's difficult to estimate populations in the distant past, even in a region run by consummate bureaucrats with official census-takers. With that caveat, the figures I've seen indicate that the region LOST population when Rome fell.
This makes sense. The population of Rome was supported by its well-administered civilization. Once that civilization broke down, the commerce and government began to disintegrate. It simply could not feed as many people.
This has happened consistently throughout history. The Bronze Age Collapse, for example, left many of the cities of Mesopotamia virtually unoccupied, as the citizens could no longer trade their labor for food.
RobDegraves
Registered Member
To begin with, the fall of Rome is not a well defined event. It occurs over several centuries and begins with more of a migration of it's center than with an actual fall. The causes of the "fall of Rome" are actually diverse and complex. Once Rome stopped expanding, all sorts of problems cropped up. Economic woes, imperial succession problems, several serious plagues, as well as endemic warfare caused by a number of factors... including pressure from the East on the germanic tribes.
John99
Sicilians being dark has nothing to do with Rome. Sicily was invaded a number of times, most notably for the region by the Normans first and then by the Moors... who were African muslims. That is why Sicilians look darker nowadays.
Walter L. Wagner
A small point. The Jews had been conquered by the Romans long before Jesus came along. The crushing you refer to was a result of a massive revolt against that rule, culminating with the massacre at Massada.
Paul persecuted Jesus's followers after Jesus's death, he never met Jesus nor was involved in any way prior to this. Jesus's support amongst Jews grew greatly after his death and spread first to Greek areas such as Antioch rather than Rome. This had a profound influence on nascent Christianity and Paul himself is as much responsible for much of what Christianity is as Jesus himself.
John99
Sicilians being dark has nothing to do with Rome. Sicily was invaded a number of times, most notably for the region by the Normans first and then by the Moors... who were African muslims. That is why Sicilians look darker nowadays.
Walter L. Wagner
A small point. The Jews had been conquered by the Romans long before Jesus came along. The crushing you refer to was a result of a massive revolt against that rule, culminating with the massacre at Massada.
Paul persecuted Jesus's followers after Jesus's death, he never met Jesus nor was involved in any way prior to this. Jesus's support amongst Jews grew greatly after his death and spread first to Greek areas such as Antioch rather than Rome. This had a profound influence on nascent Christianity and Paul himself is as much responsible for much of what Christianity is as Jesus himself.
could jesus have become a mesiah through a new thought: peace to not just your fellow country men, but peace to all and no war.
Google search cannabis and the christ
That pretty much sums up Christ.
Sorry I can't directly hyperlink- I am still a newbie.
The reason they missed His first coming was because they mis-interpreted that list you're speaking of.
They expected Him to restore Israel as a world power at that time, and reign on the throne as the Son of David. That will happen.
Their mistake was putting the prophecies concerning His first and second advents together, such as the verses in Isaiah below.
ISAIAH 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
ISAIAH 61:2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
This is the list of things He was to do according to Isaiah. Which He did.
-Preach the gospel to the poor.
-Heal the brokenhearted.
-Preach deliverance to the captives.
-Recovering of sight to the blind.
-Set at liberty them that are bruised.
-To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. (Isaiah 61:2 part 1)
The part He was not to fulfill at that time...
-Proclaim the day of vengeance of our God.
-Comfort all them that mourn. (Isaiah 61:2 part 2)
The second half of Isaiah 61:2 wasn't to be fulfilled until His second coming.
A "comma" separated the prophecies by two thousand years. The Jews missed it, but Jesus did not.
When He was reading from Isaiah in the temple, it was at this point He closed the book and handed it back to the minister.
Then He said; "This day, this scripture is fulfilled in your ears". He stopped in the middle of the verse. Luke 4:17-21
First He had to supply the sacrifice, the propitiation.
The day of the Lord's vengeance is the day of the Lord...the Millennium.
That was the time Israel was to be restored as a world leader.
As you can see it is only now beginning to happen. Just as it was foretold.
Israel had to be blinded to this to give the rest of the world, i.e. "The Gentiles", the opportunity for salvation.
The blindness of Israel was done to save life. This is the time for that blindness to be removed.
As God turns away from the Gentiles back to the Jews, two witnesses shall come to them according to Revelation the 11th chapter.
These will be prophets.
Last edited: