Jesus - morally superior to God.

[Quantum Quack]

Just saw the Film "The Passion"

As I was watching the depiction of gross violence and sadism inflicted on Jesus a question occured to me:
"Would Jesus have allowed such an attrocity to occur if he was in charge?"
Would Jesus crucify any one?

To me if one believes in The Christ then the answer to the above questions is no. Jesus would not allow such attrocities to exist.

So I ask : "Is Jesus morally superior to the God that allowed his crucifixion?"

The final assessment I came to was that if you are going to pray do so to the man of wisdom, love and forgiveness but not to the God of violence and contempt.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Do you understand that you're making this judgement with the morals jesus invented as your basis?
You're basically saying jesus is better at being jesus.
Yeah, I think jesus is probably superior to just about everyone and everything that has ever existed when it comes to abiding by his morals that he made up.
(he didn't really make them up himself, it was a whole movement of a sect of jews of which he was a part, but you get the point)

It's not like they're universal morals set in stone that have always existed. God's morals(where torturing jesus to death is ok) aren't any less "moral" than Jesus'.
The morals of the romans saw jesus' mamby pampy fagginess as immorral. Their morals weren't any less real than those of jesus.
You just happen to live in a civilisation governed by the morals of jesus.
If you grew up in a Romanesque civilisation, you'd find the tales of jesus helping lepers to be immoral, and you'd see his torturous death as right and just.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Dr Lou, you raize some interesting points.

I can't say that I agree with your contention. I tend to beleive that man throughout history has always known what is right and what isn't. All Jesus seemed to do was push it into the populations face so to speak and got crucified for his troubles.
This of course is based on a hypothetical premise that Jesus existed at all.

I guess it shows what happens when you call every one unworthy to start with.....to be rejected by society can be the only outcome...afterall if you tell the head honcho that he is a fool he is liable to get angry ....yes?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I might add my opinion isn't set in stone either...

 

[Lori_7]

Just saw the Film "The Passion"

As I was watching the depiction of gross violence and sadism inflicted on Jesus a question occured to me:
"Would Jesus have allowed such an attrocity to occur if he was in charge?"
Would Jesus crucify any one?

To me if one believes in The Christ then the answer to the above questions is no. Jesus would not allow such attrocities to exist.

So I ask : "Is Jesus morally superior to the God that allowed his crucifixion?"

The final assessment I came to was that if you are going to pray do so to the man of wisdom, love and forgiveness but not to the God of violence and contempt.

Jesus did "allow" his crucifixion. He didn't have to go through what He did. But He did it in love, and for us. God is Jesus...Jesus is God in the form of a human being. He was born of His Holy Spirit. He knew what He was doing and what it was to accomplish. The whole point is that the wages of sin is death...violent tormented suffering and death. He did what He did so that we could choose something different.

Love,

Lori

 

[Quantum Quack]

I am a little confused:
If Jesus is God in the flesh then why did he ask:
"Father; why hast thou forsaken me?"
"Forgive them Father for they know what they do?"
Why does he refer to God as his Father if he was God in the flesh?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Did Jesus ever say that he was God?

 

[Bleed]

Jesus and God are one, as in fact is the Holy Spirit with them. The trinity. Jesus WAS God and said so...pm me and I'll give you some verses later, when I'm not so tired...

 

[Leo Volont]

To me if one believes in The Christ then the answer to the above questions is no. Jesus would not allow such attrocities to exist.

So I ask : "Is Jesus morally superior to the God that allowed his crucifixion?"

The final assessment I came to was that if you are going to pray do so to the man of wisdom, love and forgiveness but not to the God of violence and contempt.

You should consider that Creation is a work in progress. Honestly, do you think that God was supposed to INSTANTANEOUSLY make a Morally Perfect Universe, or is it more reasonable to suppose that an Eternal Creation would admit to Process, Progress and Development?

We have the Life Force that is often identified with the Cosmis Christ. It interpenetrates all things, from the densest and most senseless matter to the Highest Spiritual Realms of God Consciousness Itself. We notice that in this Life Force, matter tends to organize itself -- single cell organisms to multi-cell life forms and then the organization of separate lifeforms into Societies. It all goes slowly but the Progress is inexorible, even if sometimes "one step forward for two steps back".

 

[Leo Volont]

Jesus did "allow" his crucifixion. Love,

Lori

Really!? Do not all 4 Gospels tell us that Jesus prayed to God all night to be delivered from arrest, humiliation and death? It sounds to me that if He had any control over the matter Himself, He would have avoided the whole thing.

It looks to me as though God finally tired of the Jews and decided that it would give them exactly what they deserved to Murder their own Promised One. It would End the Contract with Abraham once and for all. It would be accepted by God of Proof that heirs of Jacob had a contempt for All Things Holy. Also, is it really any wonder that the word "Israel" means "fight against God".

 

[§outh§tar]

So I ask : "Is Jesus morally superior to the God that allowed his crucifixion?"
.

QQ,

To the Christian, this is the same as saying: "Is Jesus morally superior to Himself?"

 

[Leo Volont]

Did Jesus ever say that he was God?

No.

He said that "I and the Father are One", but that is an expression of Mystical Unity. The Trick about Mystical Unity with God is that one can only experience it by renouncing one's own identity, if for only a moment, in order to plunge into God while retaining no trace of a separate Self.

So, for those moments that Jesus experienced Himself as God, He had left behind Jesus and was participating in God.

Jesus as a separate being could not be God.

But this brings to mind the idea of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Reach and Power of God into the World, into Life and even into some individuals. It does not make the Saints into God or Gods, but it is the Power of God reaching through them.

 

[Yorda]

Really!? Do not all 4 Gospels tell us that Jesus prayed to God all night to be delivered from arrest, humiliation and death? It sounds to me that if He had any control over the matter Himself, He would have avoided the whole thing.

He "could have" avoided it, just like he "could have" become the king of this world if he had accepted satan as his master.
He prayed so that his Father's will would be identical to his own will, but he always said: let your will be done.

 

[Leo Volont]

He "could have" avoided it, just like he "could have" become the king of this world if he had accepted satan as his master.
He prayed so that his Father's will would be identical to his own will, but he always said: let your will be done.

"Could have". You are saying that Christ "could have" avoided the Murder by accepting Satan's deal to Rule the World. Here you are assuming that Satan could have delivered, that Satan is not a liar and a cheat. That is a flattering assumption for the Devil's Sake! You must be a Satanist to give the Devil so much Credit.

But when we look to the Facts, and not your Satanic Congectures, what we have is Christ fatalistically accepting His inexorable Fate. God's Protections which had kept Christ safe up to that point were suddenly removed, and after wimpering about it all night, finally decided to bravely accept what he could not avoid.

The same Scenario would be repeated. Joan of Arc, after a career that was built on God's Protection was in the end abandoned. Why? As God used the Murder of Jesus to prove the moral decay of the Jews, so God used the Murder of Joan of Arc to identify the English as a remorseless and predatory race. If a People insists upon being Evil, then God will provide them something to be guilty of.

 

[Bleed]

Really!? Do not all 4 Gospels tell us that Jesus prayed to God all night to be delivered from arrest, humiliation and death? It sounds to me that if He had any control over the matter Himself, He would have avoided the whole thing.

He also said, "but your will be done." Yes, he wished not to endure he pain and humiliation, but he loved humanity and his father more. Of course he had a choice. While Satan tempted him in the desert, did they both not agree that at any moment Christ could call forth angels to catch him if he jumped from a building and carry him off to the heavens? He could easily have left and returned to heaven without suffering the death on the cross. But, as I believe someone mentioned, there would not be a true sacrifice to pay for the sins of the world. Because of this he was not 'obligated' or forced to die, but simply chose to.

 

[scorpius]

Jesus and God are one, as in fact is the Holy Spirit with them. The trinity. Jesus WAS God and said so...

you do realize this whole Trinity concept is idiotic right?

if God=Jesus=Holyspirit then why would God/Jesus send Jesus/God to sacrifice Jesus/God to God to save people from sin which He God created in the first place!

 

[Yorda]

"Could have". You are saying that Christ "could have" avoided the Murder by accepting Satan's deal to Rule the World. Here you are assuming that Satan could have delivered, that Satan is not a liar and a cheat. That is a flattering assumption for the Devil's Sake! You must be a Satanist to give the Devil so much Credit.

I'm saying that he "could have" because satan was testing him. But also, of course he "couldn't have" because he didn't. What has happened, has happened, and it couldn't have happened in any other way. Without the devil, no one can be tempted and therefore no one can come to heaven. Satan is merely a natural, material, law.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Possibly a way of looking at this issue could be to simplify it down to positive and negative forces not unlike a car battery that has 12 volts available at both poles.

Jesus went into the desert and rejected the negative pole thus the energy involved now had a positive bias. Of course the universe needed to balance this bias and so Jesus by nature of his positve force attracted in the end energies that would ineveitably neutralise his positive bias, by expunging him from an earthly existence.

If Jesus had acccepted the temptations of an Earthly existence he may have become a God in the flesh and still be here in the flesh today. But because he rejected his Earthly existence his earthly state was rejected by the very thing he rejected.

It's a bit like having a battery that has 16 volts on one pole and 8 volts on the other, the need to balance the equation became a universal necessity.

So Jesus had to be neutralised but of course his legacy lifted the bar considerable so now instead of having a 12 volt battery we have a 24 volt battery......sort of thingo....

Just thinking......feel free to pooh pooh the idea as much as you want...

 

[Leo Volont]

He also said, "but your will be done." Yes, he wished not to endure he pain and humiliation, but he loved humanity and his father more. Of course he had a choice. While Satan tempted him in the desert, did they both not agree that at any moment Christ could call forth angels to catch him if he jumped from a building and carry him off to the heavens? He could easily have left and returned to heaven without suffering the death on the cross. But, as I believe someone mentioned, there would not be a true sacrifice to pay for the sins of the world. Because of this he was not 'obligated' or forced to die, but simply chose to.

Jesus's Prayer to the Father indicates that the Mantel of Power was withdrawn from Him. Jesus had no Problem in Healing the Sick, Raising the dead, or, for that matter, blasting fruitless trees, all without tortuous praying to His Father in Heaven. That Christ had to resort to Prayer indicates that suddenly the initiative had been taken away from Him. He truly was Forsaken.

It was not so Christ would die as a sacrifice, but so that the Free Will wish of the Jewish Hierarchies could be fullfilled... that Their Prayer be granted -- that the Promise of Abraham be turned back to God as no longer desireable or wanted.

God would not impose a Messiah upon Humanity. Free Will is a given. Even in regards to the Second Coming, it is still entirely possible that Christ Come Again could be Murdered once more if God decides there is simply too little Welcom for Him for the His Implimentation of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth to be Viable.

 

[Leo Volont]

Satan is merely a natural, material, law.

Satan's greatest success since the French Age of 'Enlightenment' and the propagation of a Universal Secularism and Atheism has been in not only convincing Humanity that God does not exist, but that the Devil does not exist either.

Indeed, even while Exorcisms have shown the Devil very much more stubborn and tenacious than in prior ages, the Bishops and Priests who have become expert in Exorcisms have found a New Trick: they threaten to go to the Media, and the Demons immediately abandon ship and depart. Satan knows that his best interests are advanced by lulling the Public into believing there is no Supernatural, either Good or Bad.