James Randi Love Thread
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I rarely result to leet but this time its well deserved. pWned
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
Nope.
Do you mean like the excuse that God exists beyond time and space and so cannot be proven or the one where God is beyond human understanding and so cannot be rationalized?
Those are my favorite slight-of-mind tricks.
the video was fairly amusing.
the excuse was pretty paltry.
couldnt the foam have been distributed in an unconnected line of a single "peanut" per inch, surrounding the book?
styrofoam DOES create static electricity when heated...i think it was mostly the time constraint of the television show that limited the experiment.
*shrug*
the excuse was pretty paltry.
couldnt the foam have been distributed in an unconnected line of a single "peanut" per inch, surrounding the book?
styrofoam DOES create static electricity when heated...i think it was mostly the time constraint of the television show that limited the experiment.
*shrug*
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
The thing about Rhandi is i dont think he really cares about progressing human understanding, i think hes purely and only concerned with anything he associates as 'supernatural' being proven wrong.
I saw him challanging a psychic to 'read someones mind' once while the other subject (person he was trying to read) had a black board placed in front of them - he couldnt do it.
And Rhandi was obviously happy that in that instance that psychics had been 'debunked'.
The sad thing is i think there was really potential in that experiment to find out so much more, why not cover up various parts of the subjects body and see if the psychic responds differently.
If everything is covered except the eyes would he be able to give accurate readings then? what about the mouth?
What im getting at is that a great deal of psychic readings could simply be subtle subconscious body language readings.
Of course Rhandi doesnt care about the truth, just proving his biases as be 'correct', hes a pantomime skeptic really, NOONE no matter what side of the scientific fence youre on should take him seriously.
I saw him challanging a psychic to 'read someones mind' once while the other subject (person he was trying to read) had a black board placed in front of them - he couldnt do it.
And Rhandi was obviously happy that in that instance that psychics had been 'debunked'.
The sad thing is i think there was really potential in that experiment to find out so much more, why not cover up various parts of the subjects body and see if the psychic responds differently.
If everything is covered except the eyes would he be able to give accurate readings then? what about the mouth?
What im getting at is that a great deal of psychic readings could simply be subtle subconscious body language readings.
Of course Rhandi doesnt care about the truth, just proving his biases as be 'correct', hes a pantomime skeptic really, NOONE no matter what side of the scientific fence youre on should take him seriously.
heliocentric:
Randi isn't setting out to prove anything.
All he is asking is that people who claim to have physic powers, or whatever, prove they can do what they claim they can do.
If somebody says "I have the amazing power of being able to flap my arms and fly", then Randi says "Ok. Show me."
And that's it.
What inevitably happens, however, is that the person who claims to be able to fly won't agree to a reasonable test ("I can only fly in a dark room, or when nobody is watching."), or, if they do agree to be tested and fail, make all kinds of excuses for their failure ("My flying doesn't work when skeptics are watching.")
The very existence of Randi's $1 million prize must annoy the hell out of psychics and the like. If anybody could actually show mystical powers, the money would be gone. But it isn't.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Randi isn't setting out to prove anything.
All he is asking is that people who claim to have physic powers, or whatever, prove they can do what they claim they can do.
If somebody says "I have the amazing power of being able to flap my arms and fly", then Randi says "Ok. Show me."
And that's it.
What inevitably happens, however, is that the person who claims to be able to fly won't agree to a reasonable test ("I can only fly in a dark room, or when nobody is watching."), or, if they do agree to be tested and fail, make all kinds of excuses for their failure ("My flying doesn't work when skeptics are watching.")
The very existence of Randi's $1 million prize must annoy the hell out of psychics and the like. If anybody could actually show mystical powers, the money would be gone. But it isn't.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
well, many people who claim such powers have no interest in monetary gain, jamesr.
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
James R: I think really you have to ask yourself more - what kind of credentials does this person have to be running indepedent psychology studies.
Secondly you have to ask yourself 'what is the likely outcome of an experiment where a million dollars is at stake if it does go the experimentors way?'
Id really have grave concerns of 'any' experiment with a pot of gold waiting at the end of it, it pisses all over the whole idea of unbiased/critical research.
I find it pretty amazing how everyone throws away the whole ideal of the scientific method *just* for Rhandi, it really is incredible.
Secondly you have to ask yourself 'what is the likely outcome of an experiment where a million dollars is at stake if it does go the experimentors way?'
Id really have grave concerns of 'any' experiment with a pot of gold waiting at the end of it, it pisses all over the whole idea of unbiased/critical research.
I find it pretty amazing how everyone throws away the whole ideal of the scientific method *just* for Rhandi, it really is incredible.
Then they can donate the $1 million they win to a charity of their choice, can't they? They get to prove their point. The charity gets money from Randi. It's win win.
Randi doesn't run any psychological studies.
Loss of a million dollars. Randi is confident he won't have to pay, obviously. And he never has had to, so far.
Randi isn't investigating the details of these amazing powers. He is just trying to establish whether they actually exist or not. Should be easy, if such powers do exist. I mean, if somebody claims they can predict the future or bend spoons with their mind or do remote viewing, it's easy enough to test. If they can do it, then the next problem is to work out how they do it, which is a whole different investigation.
Actually, Randi is injecting some scientific method into the paranormal - something that is sadly lacking most of the time.
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
If hes running experiments regarding esp, then i think this probably is within the realm of psychology.
And he never will.
To be honest in regards to alot of this stuff i neither lean one way or the other, im agnostic about the whole thing.
And as a matter of course id expect any researcher in this area to hold the same attitude (more or less).
The issue with Rhandi is he has the biggest conflict of interest ive ever seen, you dont get a man whos built his entire career on his public image as a supernatural naysayer and debunker to run experiments testing the supernatural.
The whole 'well the million dollars is still THERE, noones taken it yet!'
Is the basis of his entire schtick.
Its the only reason people pay attention to him, if someone passed one of his made up experiments (which they never will) hed fade into obscurity in an instant.
Obviously this is something that Rhandi would never ever allow to happen.
Really the whole thing absurd, its like getting a creationist to prove the validity of evolution.
Hes really just turning it into more of a circus than it already is.
We need REAL scientists and psychologists to test these sorts of claims, with the proper credentials and preferably people who havent made a career out of a pre-experiment bias.
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When I watch a magic act, I assume that there is a trick to it, that the magician does not possess supernatural abilities but that he is using trickery and that it can all be explained using logic and the laws of nature.
A retarded mind jumps to the supernatural explanation and seeks out a more complicated answer to the question: “How does he do it?”
The reasons are multiple, but the basic one is that the human mind, when it is weak and degenerate, wants an out from reality. It then grasps on any possibility to keep the potential of his own escape from the reality he perceives and does not like, open.
Thusly this degenerate mind will experience every unexplained phenomenon as proof, positive of an other dimension or a ‘higher plane of existence’.
It will project its insecurities and use what it cannot comprehend as evidence for the possibility of something extraordinary.
The buffoon previously asked:
"What amount of coicidence is enough?" or words to that effect.
What “coincidences”?
What organ would project such energies across space and what, as yet undiscovered organ, would receive these projections?
What purpose would such a sophisticated form of communication serve and why has not nature evolved to take advantage of it?
The brain is a tool nature selected as necessary and effective. It then evolved creatures with huge brains, like some of us.
Why is nature coy about this other form of communication, that she keeps it hidden and ambiguous?
It is natural to assume that in the coarse of a day we pick-up far more information than we are able to integrate into our consciousness.
This information, we are told, goes to our subconscious where it gets purged in sleep, in the form of dreams, or is lost in time.
We can walk, for example, down a street, and perceive in our peripheral vision someone. We will sense a presence, then, and turn towards his direction, to find him watching us.
The idiot will assume he possesses paranormal abilities or that this was an instance of his Spidy-senses tingling.
The rational mind will assume that he perceived this other’s presence in his own peripheral vision but that it did not immediately get registered in the consciousness.
To a man believing in ghosts every creak, every leaf rustling every shadow becomes evidence of the paranormal. He surrenders to his fears and hopes and sees what he wants to see.
It’s unfortunate that the world is so bland and ordinary to those wanting to preserve the possibility of the magical and the extraordinary.
If you hear voices in your head do not assume it’s another communicating with you; there’s definitely something wrong with you.
Thank God for people like Randi, who offer their own personal time and efforts to uncovering charlatans, imbeciles, con-artists and superstitious idiots.
This world needs more reason and less stupidity. Unfortunately stupidity thrives when it is so easily manipulated and serves the system’s needs.
Where is the tipping point?
A retarded mind jumps to the supernatural explanation and seeks out a more complicated answer to the question: “How does he do it?”
The reasons are multiple, but the basic one is that the human mind, when it is weak and degenerate, wants an out from reality. It then grasps on any possibility to keep the potential of his own escape from the reality he perceives and does not like, open.
Thusly this degenerate mind will experience every unexplained phenomenon as proof, positive of an other dimension or a ‘higher plane of existence’.
It will project its insecurities and use what it cannot comprehend as evidence for the possibility of something extraordinary.
The buffoon previously asked:
"What amount of coicidence is enough?" or words to that effect.
What “coincidences”?
What organ would project such energies across space and what, as yet undiscovered organ, would receive these projections?
What purpose would such a sophisticated form of communication serve and why has not nature evolved to take advantage of it?
The brain is a tool nature selected as necessary and effective. It then evolved creatures with huge brains, like some of us.
Why is nature coy about this other form of communication, that she keeps it hidden and ambiguous?
It is natural to assume that in the coarse of a day we pick-up far more information than we are able to integrate into our consciousness.
This information, we are told, goes to our subconscious where it gets purged in sleep, in the form of dreams, or is lost in time.
We can walk, for example, down a street, and perceive in our peripheral vision someone. We will sense a presence, then, and turn towards his direction, to find him watching us.
The idiot will assume he possesses paranormal abilities or that this was an instance of his Spidy-senses tingling.
The rational mind will assume that he perceived this other’s presence in his own peripheral vision but that it did not immediately get registered in the consciousness.
To a man believing in ghosts every creak, every leaf rustling every shadow becomes evidence of the paranormal. He surrenders to his fears and hopes and sees what he wants to see.
It’s unfortunate that the world is so bland and ordinary to those wanting to preserve the possibility of the magical and the extraordinary.
If you hear voices in your head do not assume it’s another communicating with you; there’s definitely something wrong with you.
Thank God for people like Randi, who offer their own personal time and efforts to uncovering charlatans, imbeciles, con-artists and superstitious idiots.
This world needs more reason and less stupidity. Unfortunately stupidity thrives when it is so easily manipulated and serves the system’s needs.
Where is the tipping point?
As James mentioned, the million $ prize annoys the hell out of psychics - and many believers. People come up with all sorts of excuses and criticism of Randi in an attempt to attack the credibility of the challenge. Doing this may help them avoid looking at the fact that no one who has applied has displayed any paranormal powers.
I hear regularly that the challenge is not scientific and this is true in the sense that you don't prove anything in science with a once off experiment. It is however a controlled experiment and this is very important. It seems that when you introduce appropriate controls the paranormal powers disappear.
I wonder what would happen if someone were able to win the money. Would believers refrain from mentioning it because it wasn't scientific? Not likely.
To save some time lets look at a list of excuses....
http://www.skepticreport.com/skepticism/topjref.htm
I hear regularly that the challenge is not scientific and this is true in the sense that you don't prove anything in science with a once off experiment. It is however a controlled experiment and this is very important. It seems that when you introduce appropriate controls the paranormal powers disappear.
I wonder what would happen if someone were able to win the money. Would believers refrain from mentioning it because it wasn't scientific? Not likely.
To save some time lets look at a list of excuses....
http://www.skepticreport.com/skepticism/topjref.htm
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
I know exactly why people rally behind randi and i know exactly why they think theyre right in doing so, but it really isnt true skepticism and neither is it science.
Dont forget its not all about urei geller scam artists trying to flog self-help books, its also people within experimental science in possesion of data that seems to conflict with accepted theory.
In these instances youre basically allowing an unqualifed quack into a lab to poke around with the finding, its really nothing more than a giant piss over the entire scientific method.
Im sure skepdic.com are absolutely in love with him too, but theyve never really been anything to do with science either.
I actually think randi is a very good litmus test from sorting out faux-science evangelicals from people genuinely interested and passionate about science. He does serve some purpose at least.
Dont forget its not all about urei geller scam artists trying to flog self-help books, its also people within experimental science in possesion of data that seems to conflict with accepted theory.
In these instances youre basically allowing an unqualifed quack into a lab to poke around with the finding, its really nothing more than a giant piss over the entire scientific method.
Im sure skepdic.com are absolutely in love with him too, but theyve never really been anything to do with science either.
I actually think randi is a very good litmus test from sorting out faux-science evangelicals from people genuinely interested and passionate about science. He does serve some purpose at least.
heliocentric:
Not at the stage of proving existence.
If somebody says "I have ESP", then Randi says nothing more that "Show me." He isn't interested in why the person has ESP, or how it works, or the psychology of it. He just wants the person making the claim to do what they say they can do.
I think you want to believe in ESP and so on. Randi is a barrier to that belief, because he directly challenges the existence of these mystical powers. So, you try to dismiss him as not worthy of your attention.
First, Randi has not built his entire career as a supernatural naysayer. His career was as a professional conjuror.
Second, Randi often has no direct participation in testing of claims for the $1 million prize.
Third, the conditions for a fair test are agreed in advance by applicants for the prize. This is done so they can't turn around after the test and claim it was unfair. They agreed it was fair before they took the test. They negotiated the test conditions. They said they could do what they claimed under the agreed conditions.
Correct. And the person who passed would become instantly much more famous and $1 million richer as well.
Makes you think, doesn't it?
What control does he have? If these people can do what they say they can do, they can't NOT win the prize.
Many "parapsychologists" have been shown to have the very pre-experiment bias you're complaining about.
Another point is that many of the people who assist Randi in conducting tests are scientists and/or psychologists with the "real" credentials you want. I guess you're saying they are all compromised too, by association. (?)
Not at the stage of proving existence.
If somebody says "I have ESP", then Randi says nothing more that "Show me." He isn't interested in why the person has ESP, or how it works, or the psychology of it. He just wants the person making the claim to do what they say they can do.
I think you want to believe in ESP and so on. Randi is a barrier to that belief, because he directly challenges the existence of these mystical powers. So, you try to dismiss him as not worthy of your attention.
First, Randi has not built his entire career as a supernatural naysayer. His career was as a professional conjuror.
Second, Randi often has no direct participation in testing of claims for the $1 million prize.
Third, the conditions for a fair test are agreed in advance by applicants for the prize. This is done so they can't turn around after the test and claim it was unfair. They agreed it was fair before they took the test. They negotiated the test conditions. They said they could do what they claimed under the agreed conditions.
Correct. And the person who passed would become instantly much more famous and $1 million richer as well.
Makes you think, doesn't it?
What control does he have? If these people can do what they say they can do, they can't NOT win the prize.
Many "parapsychologists" have been shown to have the very pre-experiment bias you're complaining about.
Another point is that many of the people who assist Randi in conducting tests are scientists and/or psychologists with the "real" credentials you want. I guess you're saying they are all compromised too, by association. (?)