Do you really think that checking websites and posting on messageboards is going to lead to the conclusion of whether or not homosexuality is genetic or derived from environment? I sure hope not. You're talking about the age old question of Nature vs. Nurture. Why bother? We all know that we are a combination of the two! Besides, what difference does it make? Even if it was due entirely to genetics or environment, it's not going to change the fact that the person is gay! It doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.
It's ba-ack.
- Thread starter Bowser
- Start date
SciGuy--
For some reason it matters to the people who put up the stupid ballot measures like we see in Oregon, or the 1992 Colorado Amendment 2, which was torn apart in court.
It doesn't make sense to me, though. I recall that as Oregon slogged through the chosen/acquired/inherent debate, the conservatives had an answer for all. Either criminalize them, counsel them psychiatrically, or mess with the genes of every one of God's foetuses to make sure children are standardized at birth.
I believe, sir, that you have a humongous point.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
For some reason it matters to the people who put up the stupid ballot measures like we see in Oregon, or the 1992 Colorado Amendment 2, which was torn apart in court.
It doesn't make sense to me, though. I recall that as Oregon slogged through the chosen/acquired/inherent debate, the conservatives had an answer for all. Either criminalize them, counsel them psychiatrically, or mess with the genes of every one of God's foetuses to make sure children are standardized at birth.
I believe, sir, that you have a humongous point.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
"1) Read up on your history. The belief that genes influence personality has some truth in it, but more importantly is not <blink>eugenics. Eugenics is a name for a deplorable social policy of law-enforced</blink> selective breeding for humans. The fact that eugenics derived support from a belief does not invalidate the belief.
But it does show how public policy can be influenced by such assumptions.
"And while homosexuality's connection to genes is being debated, there have been convincing demonstrations that, for example, certain forms of antisocial behavior are at least partially hereditary."
Tell that to the monkey that was raised by the artificial mother. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">
"2) Fact: sexuality forms during early development. Whether it's genes or hormone concentrations or random variations in brain pathways due to chance or environmental stimulation -- or whatever --does not matter. It's simple: once you are born with two arms, you can't grow a third one."
If only our physical character was as fluid as our mind. I disagree thus far, but I'm willing to consider your sources of fact.
"3) The idea of behavioral conditioning is both overhyped and out of date, just ask Stalin. Get your head out of your past."
Behavioral conditioning is in practice today, Boris. Don't you own a television? Without question, you cannot live in any society without having your head submerged in popular thought.
------------------
It's all very large.
But it does show how public policy can be influenced by such assumptions.
"And while homosexuality's connection to genes is being debated, there have been convincing demonstrations that, for example, certain forms of antisocial behavior are at least partially hereditary."
Tell that to the monkey that was raised by the artificial mother. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">
"2) Fact: sexuality forms during early development. Whether it's genes or hormone concentrations or random variations in brain pathways due to chance or environmental stimulation -- or whatever --does not matter. It's simple: once you are born with two arms, you can't grow a third one."
If only our physical character was as fluid as our mind. I disagree thus far, but I'm willing to consider your sources of fact.
"3) The idea of behavioral conditioning is both overhyped and out of date, just ask Stalin. Get your head out of your past."
Behavioral conditioning is in practice today, Boris. Don't you own a television? Without question, you cannot live in any society without having your head submerged in popular thought.
------------------
It's all very large.
Sciguy,
"Do you really think that checking websites and posting on messageboards is going to lead to the conclusion of whether or not homosexuality is genetic or derived from environment? I sure hope not."
It stimulates thought, I hope.
"You're talking about the age old question of Nature vs. Nurture. Why bother? We all know that we are a combination of the two! Besides, what difference does it make? Even if it was due entirely to genetics or environment, it's not going to change the fact that the person is gay! It doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is."
The deeper we search this issue, the less clear our facts become. I wish it was as simple as saying, "it just is," but then we would never know for certain. I believe that people are asking us to accept just that, maybe even create laws on such a premise.
------------------
It's all very large.
"Do you really think that checking websites and posting on messageboards is going to lead to the conclusion of whether or not homosexuality is genetic or derived from environment? I sure hope not."
It stimulates thought, I hope.
"You're talking about the age old question of Nature vs. Nurture. Why bother? We all know that we are a combination of the two! Besides, what difference does it make? Even if it was due entirely to genetics or environment, it's not going to change the fact that the person is gay! It doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is."
The deeper we search this issue, the less clear our facts become. I wish it was as simple as saying, "it just is," but then we would never know for certain. I believe that people are asking us to accept just that, maybe even create laws on such a premise.
------------------
It's all very large.
Bowser,
Classic Christian attitude. If the truth be dangerous, then deny the truth!
Precisely. Our physical character is not as fluid as our mind. Sexuality is not a matter of mind.
As to my sources of fact, you have yourself referenced some. I doubt you did not stumble on plenty more in your sifting through the web. I do not derive my neuropsychological knowledge from the internet; it was my undergraduate major and I have textbooks and papers to back me up. I'm not about to recite textbooks and papers here... And I'm sure you are just as efficient looking for facts on the web as I am, so I'll leave that onerous job in your own capable hands.
<hr>
As for behavioral conditioning, I would like to remind you that you are not a rat -- in case you forgot, that is. Plus there is a vast difference between stimulus-response coupling and a 'sexuoerotic' status.
Besides, haven't I already mentioned several times over why sexuality does not fit under the rubric of conditioning? How many times would you like me to reiterate? Just tell me right now, and I'll do it inside one post rather than filling the thread with redundant information.
------------------
I am; therefore I think.
Classic Christian attitude. If the truth be dangerous, then deny the truth!
Precisely. Our physical character is not as fluid as our mind. Sexuality is not a matter of mind.
As to my sources of fact, you have yourself referenced some. I doubt you did not stumble on plenty more in your sifting through the web. I do not derive my neuropsychological knowledge from the internet; it was my undergraduate major and I have textbooks and papers to back me up. I'm not about to recite textbooks and papers here... And I'm sure you are just as efficient looking for facts on the web as I am, so I'll leave that onerous job in your own capable hands.
<hr>
As for behavioral conditioning, I would like to remind you that you are not a rat -- in case you forgot, that is. Plus there is a vast difference between stimulus-response coupling and a 'sexuoerotic' status.
Besides, haven't I already mentioned several times over why sexuality does not fit under the rubric of conditioning? How many times would you like me to reiterate? Just tell me right now, and I'll do it inside one post rather than filling the thread with redundant information.
------------------
I am; therefore I think.
MoonCat--
Baby take off your coat ... real slow.
Newman, Cocker ... anyway, it's nice to see your pom-poms
I am compelled to mention the simultaneous leaping and melting of my heart at the sight of your name--much like the idea of going to jump over something only to find that your legs are made of microwave-warmed chocolate. I'm tempted to say, "Sorry about the skidmark ...," but it would seem that American slang, being what it is, opens up a slew of jokes pertinent to the topic.
At any rate, 'tis lovely to see your name in lights, as such. It's 22 Short Films About Springfield, tonight. ("Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel", as I type.)
I had to put that in, just 'cuz I'm, well ... it's 22 Short Films, tonite, and well ...
I'll stop now. Hi.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Baby take off your coat ... real slow.
Newman, Cocker ... anyway, it's nice to see your pom-poms
I am compelled to mention the simultaneous leaping and melting of my heart at the sight of your name--much like the idea of going to jump over something only to find that your legs are made of microwave-warmed chocolate. I'm tempted to say, "Sorry about the skidmark ...," but it would seem that American slang, being what it is, opens up a slew of jokes pertinent to the topic.
At any rate, 'tis lovely to see your name in lights, as such. It's 22 Short Films About Springfield, tonight. ("Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel", as I type.)
I had to put that in, just 'cuz I'm, well ... it's 22 Short Films, tonite, and well ...
I'll stop now. Hi.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
"Classic Christian attitude. If the truth be dangerous, then deny the truth!"
Or, if we are homosexual, we can fabricate the truth.
"Precisely. Our physical character is not as fluid as our mind. Sexuality is not a matter of mind."
Based on your undergraduate major, textbooks, papers, and diversity training? I didn't see Boris listed anywhere along with the pioneers of thought and notable greats.
Do you really believe the brain and its most basic reactions cannot be manipulated. I hate to question your credentials, but identity of any kind is a product of mind, Boris.
"And I'm sure you are just as efficient looking for facts on the web as I am, so I'll leave that onerous job in your own capable hands."
Okay...
http://www.anti-gay.com/
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html
http://www.spub.ksu.edu/issues/v099B/sp/n128/opn-kevyn-04.03.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/reisman.html
http://www.theonion.com/onion3326/homosexualrecruit.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/labarbera.html
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=suic&date=19970522&query=gay%2bteen%2bsuicide
http://www.gaybeer.com/
http://www.salon.com/col/horo/1998/06/29horo.html
http://expage.com/page/gaycomments
"As for behavioral conditioning, I would like to remind you that you are not a rat -- in case you forgot, that is."
But we have used animals in past arguments regarding homosexuality and natural process, Why is the inclusion of animal behavior relative to homosexual behavior a problem now. Certainly mind isn't a factor.
"Plus there is a vast difference between stimulus-response coupling and a 'sexuoerotic' status."
Maybe so, but they both involve external environmental influences. Wouldn't you agree. In a very similar sense but at a more complex level, it is much like the sound of a bell and the associated anticipation of food.
"How many times would you like me to reiterate? Just tell me right now, and I'll do it inside one post rather than filling the thread with redundant information."
To be honest, I think your position is that homosexuality is the symptom of a defective product. A lemon. A bad machine. If I misunderstood your theory, please repeat it ten times. I think you are committed to the idea that sexual identity is hard-wired before birth, but then again you give a little and concede to the possibility that environment plays a role within a short period after birth. I'm almost certain that you don't give to the notion that sexual identity can be altered later in life, even though there is evidence that people have done just that.
------------------
It's all very large.
Or, if we are homosexual, we can fabricate the truth.
"Precisely. Our physical character is not as fluid as our mind. Sexuality is not a matter of mind."
Based on your undergraduate major, textbooks, papers, and diversity training? I didn't see Boris listed anywhere along with the pioneers of thought and notable greats.
Do you really believe the brain and its most basic reactions cannot be manipulated. I hate to question your credentials, but identity of any kind is a product of mind, Boris.
"And I'm sure you are just as efficient looking for facts on the web as I am, so I'll leave that onerous job in your own capable hands."
Okay...
http://www.anti-gay.com/
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html
http://www.spub.ksu.edu/issues/v099B/sp/n128/opn-kevyn-04.03.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/reisman.html
http://www.theonion.com/onion3326/homosexualrecruit.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/labarbera.html
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=suic&date=19970522&query=gay%2bteen%2bsuicide
http://www.gaybeer.com/
http://www.salon.com/col/horo/1998/06/29horo.html
http://expage.com/page/gaycomments
"As for behavioral conditioning, I would like to remind you that you are not a rat -- in case you forgot, that is."
But we have used animals in past arguments regarding homosexuality and natural process, Why is the inclusion of animal behavior relative to homosexual behavior a problem now. Certainly mind isn't a factor.
"Plus there is a vast difference between stimulus-response coupling and a 'sexuoerotic' status."
Maybe so, but they both involve external environmental influences. Wouldn't you agree. In a very similar sense but at a more complex level, it is much like the sound of a bell and the associated anticipation of food.
"How many times would you like me to reiterate? Just tell me right now, and I'll do it inside one post rather than filling the thread with redundant information."
To be honest, I think your position is that homosexuality is the symptom of a defective product. A lemon. A bad machine. If I misunderstood your theory, please repeat it ten times. I think you are committed to the idea that sexual identity is hard-wired before birth, but then again you give a little and concede to the possibility that environment plays a role within a short period after birth. I'm almost certain that you don't give to the notion that sexual identity can be altered later in life, even though there is evidence that people have done just that.
------------------
It's all very large.
Professor Frink, Professor Frink,
He'll make you laugh
He'll make you think
And then the thing..with the stuff..and the..person..
Oh, that monkey is going to pay!
Aye Tiassa, I'm still around, in lurk mode. And btw - I think I'm changing my offer to you of a beer into an offer for a Simpsons marathon and a couple (dozen) bong rips. It's what I do all weekend anyway.
He'll make you laugh
He'll make you think
And then the thing..with the stuff..and the..person..
Oh, that monkey is going to pay!
Aye Tiassa, I'm still around, in lurk mode. And btw - I think I'm changing my offer to you of a beer into an offer for a Simpsons marathon and a couple (dozen) bong rips. It's what I do all weekend anyway.
http://www.glsen.org/templates/news/record.html?section=12&record=504
Another blow to BSA .... And y'all can't get away with saying this is just west-coast whackos.
Let me guess ... the gays have infiltrated school boards across the country in an effort to force your child to be homosexual?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Another blow to BSA .... And y'all can't get away with saying this is just west-coast whackos.
Let me guess ... the gays have infiltrated school boards across the country in an effort to force your child to be homosexual?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Um ... Bowser ... The Onion?
I'll assume you've been hiding this part of your sense of humor.
Oh, and this bit, from http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/reisman.html
Every time I think you're headed for the lunatic edge, you come burning back with such wonderful crocks of shite that when this is over, I'm going to nominate you for a Rainbow Harmony Award, or something. Your research efforts are going a long way toward proving what difficulties homophobia--for lack of a better term--engenders.
(Okay, there are better terms, but I'm on a pseudo-pun streak today. If you're religious, pray I don't get started on them. )
And thank you for exploiting the Seattle Times. It's always encouraging to know that a three year-old article employs a twelve year-old study to refute an actor's perspective on the world.
A US-DHHS survey ... okay, I'm cool to use fed numbers; just no dismissing outdated fed numbers because they're outdated and fed, eh?
Borrowing from you, Bowser, I might ask if anyone asked the dead why they committed suicide? If the recent spat of violent child tragedies making headlines shows us anything, it's that nobody's paying attention to what the kids are saying. I found it macabre the way people asked why Columbine happened; well, all else aside, you might read the kids' notes.
Of course, such an article also undermines a point you once made that homosexuality is unhealthy and the evidence is gay teen suicides.
The Leadership U pages are really fun, though. In addition to the bit about syphilis, there's the LaBarbera article. The same Peter LaBarbera putting together press releases complaining gay persecution of Christians. Apparently it's only a short step from the BSA to the pulpit.
And doesn't Scott Lively work for the OCA? His name is too familiar, and I remember something about his Nazi fetish from when I lived in Eugene.
I'll leave the "Comments" page out of it; such self-deception is the author's troubles.
But that gay beer ad; Do homophobes have anything better to do?
Would you like me to cite the number of suicides that are heterosexual? Shall I point out heterosexual rape numbers? Shall then point out the divorce rate, and that born-again Christianity--the American "pro-family" bastion--suffers a higher divorce rate than elsewhere in the American culture? What about teen pregnancy?
Now, then ... shall we pass a law against "indoctrinating" children into the obviously unhealthy heterosexual lifestyle?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 19, 2001).]
I'll assume you've been hiding this part of your sense of humor.
Oh, and this bit, from http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/reisman.html
Every time I think you're headed for the lunatic edge, you come burning back with such wonderful crocks of shite that when this is over, I'm going to nominate you for a Rainbow Harmony Award, or something. Your research efforts are going a long way toward proving what difficulties homophobia--for lack of a better term--engenders.(Okay, there are better terms, but I'm on a pseudo-pun streak today. If you're religious, pray I don't get started on them.
)And thank you for exploiting the Seattle Times. It's always encouraging to know that a three year-old article employs a twelve year-old study to refute an actor's perspective on the world.
A US-DHHS survey ... okay, I'm cool to use fed numbers; just no dismissing outdated fed numbers because they're outdated and fed, eh?
Borrowing from you, Bowser, I might ask if anyone asked the dead why they committed suicide? If the recent spat of violent child tragedies making headlines shows us anything, it's that nobody's paying attention to what the kids are saying. I found it macabre the way people asked why Columbine happened; well, all else aside, you might read the kids' notes.
Of course, such an article also undermines a point you once made that homosexuality is unhealthy and the evidence is gay teen suicides.
The Leadership U pages are really fun, though. In addition to the bit about syphilis, there's the LaBarbera article. The same Peter LaBarbera putting together press releases complaining gay persecution of Christians. Apparently it's only a short step from the BSA to the pulpit.
And doesn't Scott Lively work for the OCA? His name is too familiar, and I remember something about his Nazi fetish from when I lived in Eugene.
I'll leave the "Comments" page out of it; such self-deception is the author's troubles.
But that gay beer ad; Do homophobes have anything better to do?
Would you like me to cite the number of suicides that are heterosexual? Shall I point out heterosexual rape numbers? Shall then point out the divorce rate, and that born-again Christianity--the American "pro-family" bastion--suffers a higher divorce rate than elsewhere in the American culture? What about teen pregnancy?
Now, then ... shall we pass a law against "indoctrinating" children into the obviously unhealthy heterosexual lifestyle?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 19, 2001).]
"Let me guess ... the gays have infiltrated school boards across the country in an effort to force your child to be homosexual?"
<hr>
Ho-mo-phile ( ) 1. One who loves homosexuality n. 2. An activist who promotes homosexuality through the devices of government, irrational behavior, or intimidation.
<hr>
"I'll assume you've been hiding this part of your sense of humor"
http://www.theonion.com/
It's good to know that some people actually look at these links <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">
"Every time I think you're headed for the lunatic edge, you come burning back with such wonderful crocks of shite that when this is over, I'm going to nominate you for a Rainbow Harmony Award, or something. Your research efforts are going a long way toward proving what difficulties homophobia--for lack of a better term--engenders."
I offered you simply what I had found during a thirty minute search online. Since nobody could offer anthing more than their ego, I returned with things of equal value.
"A US-DHHS survey ... okay, I'm cool to use fed numbers; just no dismissing outdated fed numbers because they're outdated and fed, eh?"
Offer something better. I'm willing to look at any link you throw my way. I feel like I'm the only individual giving this some effort, even when trying to find objective research (something that is not bias in any way). I've been waiting for the same consideration. I didn't want to give you a questionable source, but if I'm left to the task of finding links, it just as well be anything that I find.
"The Leadership U pages are really fun, though. In addition to the bit about syphilis, there's the LaBarbera article. The same Peter LaBarbera putting together press releases complaining gay persecution of Christians. Apparently it's only a short step from the BSA to the pulpit."
Just another voice, Tiassa. I'm sure they have credentials too.
"And doesn't Scott Lively work for the OCA? His name is too familiar, and I remember something about his Nazi fetish from when I lived in Eugene."
I'm not certain if he is still involved with that effort. I think he was sued by a gay activist, and I don't hear much about him since then.
"I'll leave the "Comments" page out of it; such self-deception is the author's troubles"
It's a matter of history and how you choose to view it. I can't argue it one way or another because I don't know the facts where his book is concerned. I wouldn't discredit it simply on your bias opinion, however. I have read mention of a homosexual close to Hitler and Hitler's efforts:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/
If you find the time, give it a read. The particular mention is in there somewhere. It has been a while since I read it. It's a good read, nonetheless. If you enjoy history, you will like the above link.
"But that gay beer ad; Do homophobes have anything better to do?"
Yes...drink beer. Is there a monetary advantage involved with selling beer to homophobes? I never liked Bud anyway, we have plenty local breweriess which offer good beer.
"Would you like me to cite the number of suicides that are heterosexual? Shall I point out heterosexual rape numbers? Shall then point out the divorce rate, and that born-again Christianity--the American "pro-family" bastion--suffers a higher divorce rate than elsewhere in the American culture? What about teen pregnancy?"
Throw us some links.
"Now, then ... shall we pass a law against "indoctrinating" children into the obviously unhealthy heterosexual lifestyle?"
Hmm, Birth control and abortion might be an example of that effort.
------------------
It's all very large.
<hr>
Ho-mo-phile ( ) 1. One who loves homosexuality n. 2. An activist who promotes homosexuality through the devices of government, irrational behavior, or intimidation.
<hr>
"I'll assume you've been hiding this part of your sense of humor"
http://www.theonion.com/
It's good to know that some people actually look at these links <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">
"Every time I think you're headed for the lunatic edge, you come burning back with such wonderful crocks of shite that when this is over, I'm going to nominate you for a Rainbow Harmony Award, or something. Your research efforts are going a long way toward proving what difficulties homophobia--for lack of a better term--engenders."
I offered you simply what I had found during a thirty minute search online. Since nobody could offer anthing more than their ego, I returned with things of equal value.
"A US-DHHS survey ... okay, I'm cool to use fed numbers; just no dismissing outdated fed numbers because they're outdated and fed, eh?"
Offer something better. I'm willing to look at any link you throw my way. I feel like I'm the only individual giving this some effort, even when trying to find objective research (something that is not bias in any way). I've been waiting for the same consideration. I didn't want to give you a questionable source, but if I'm left to the task of finding links, it just as well be anything that I find.
"The Leadership U pages are really fun, though. In addition to the bit about syphilis, there's the LaBarbera article. The same Peter LaBarbera putting together press releases complaining gay persecution of Christians. Apparently it's only a short step from the BSA to the pulpit."
Just another voice, Tiassa. I'm sure they have credentials too.
"And doesn't Scott Lively work for the OCA? His name is too familiar, and I remember something about his Nazi fetish from when I lived in Eugene."
I'm not certain if he is still involved with that effort. I think he was sued by a gay activist, and I don't hear much about him since then.
"I'll leave the "Comments" page out of it; such self-deception is the author's troubles"
It's a matter of history and how you choose to view it. I can't argue it one way or another because I don't know the facts where his book is concerned. I wouldn't discredit it simply on your bias opinion, however. I have read mention of a homosexual close to Hitler and Hitler's efforts:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/
If you find the time, give it a read. The particular mention is in there somewhere. It has been a while since I read it. It's a good read, nonetheless. If you enjoy history, you will like the above link.
"But that gay beer ad; Do homophobes have anything better to do?"
Yes...drink beer. Is there a monetary advantage involved with selling beer to homophobes? I never liked Bud anyway, we have plenty local breweriess which offer good beer.
"Would you like me to cite the number of suicides that are heterosexual? Shall I point out heterosexual rape numbers? Shall then point out the divorce rate, and that born-again Christianity--the American "pro-family" bastion--suffers a higher divorce rate than elsewhere in the American culture? What about teen pregnancy?"
Throw us some links.
"Now, then ... shall we pass a law against "indoctrinating" children into the obviously unhealthy heterosexual lifestyle?"
Hmm, Birth control and abortion might be an example of that effort.
------------------
It's all very large.
Tiassa,
Notice this link too...
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/index.html
------------------
It's all very large.
Notice this link too...
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/index.html
------------------
It's all very large.
I have been sucked into that history site again. It's fascinating. I found another nugget of homosexuality within the annals of NAZI history:
<a href = "http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-roehm.htm">The Night of the Long Knives</a>
Aparrently, a number of SA leaders--including Röhm--were homosexuals. Hitler ignored their behavior because they were useful to him and served his rise to power. They turned to socialism and paid for their ideals.
------------------
It's all very large.
<a href = "http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-roehm.htm">The Night of the Long Knives</a>
Aparrently, a number of SA leaders--including Röhm--were homosexuals. Hitler ignored their behavior because they were useful to him and served his rise to power. They turned to socialism and paid for their ideals.
------------------
It's all very large.
Bowser--
http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/
* Now, should I point out that if only one out of five adolexcents reporting having attempted suicide in the past year is a "sexual minority youth", doesn't that mean the remaining four out of five are "sexual majority youth"? Looks like it's dangerous being part of that sexual majority, eh?
On a more serious note, how might one address such high rates of destructive behavior? Lon Mabon thinks the best thing is to prevent the public from addressing the specific concerns of youth who might feel compelled to take part in a society that does not reflect them. Mabon might think he's doing a good thing by preventing counselors from addressing homosexuality outside a negative context, but if those kids are coming to the counselors with problems stemming from alienation fostered by one's peers due to perceived homosexuality, the counselor needs something better than, "Just be straight."
http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/news/seattle.htm
In fact,the whole site's pretty much centered around the social harm inflicted on homosexuals by themselves and society. They have a 1999 Oregon study on there but it's presented in its more convoluted form; I tried flipping through the individual pages of the study on the Oregon site, but that was a pain in the ass; it's there if you want it, somewhere on the /youthsuicide/ page.
http://about.beliefnet.com/frameset_offsite.asp?pageLoc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebarna%2Eorg&query=sectionID%3D0%26storyID%3D591%26boardID%3D1013%26pageLoc%3D%2Fstory%2F5%2Fstory%5F591%5 F1%2Ehtml&script=/frameset.asp should lead you to the research company that published a story first mentioned here, I think, by Emerald, regarding Christianity and divorce.
Of my teen pregnancy numbers, well, I think you see the pointlessness in gathering homosexual teen pregnancy numbers. I'm sure some exist somewhere, but ... well, okay, I've given it a cursory Googling, and I really don't see anything directly linking teen pregnancy to homosexuality, so I'll leave it to anyone who wants to to fill in that blank.
http://www.nnfr.org/research/pv/pv_ch5.html
Dirty heterosexuals!
I chide the British because it took them until the 1990's ... heck, we weren't that much quicker. And this, like our anti-sodomy laws, was something we looked to "tradition" and "community standards" to support. British Chief Justice? (As a side note, in Hardwick v. Georgia, 1986, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the state's right to make anti-sodomy laws. Cited by the majority were traditions and legal codes dating back to Henry IV. The dissent mentioned these laws only long enough to say that just because the British have five-hundred years of laws on the subject speaks nothing of the situation in the United States of America. Something about when we Americans choose to admire the British legislative superiority, eh?
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/nij/181867.txt is a very interesting page which demonstrates a few things about domestic-partner violence. You, Bowser, will appreciate the telling numbers about homosexual violations, but will you read the next two paragraphs or so?
Should we make Men illegal?
http://www.utexas.edu/cee/dec/tcleose/assault/chap5.html
The whole thing's pretty cool, here. But I'll let you choose to read it or not; there's bits in there about the rape of men that make me want to campaign questions like: Why should a male victim of rape be afraid of being labeled gay? Or: Why was it that for many years, a male victim of rape by another male could look forward to being arrested for sodomy?
Because those, too, are part of the latent homophobia that grips the culture; this is the part that many gay-rights groups seek to address. That someone should live in a state of fear after a bodily violation is perfectly understandable; this is what those whose job it is to deal with such situations seek to reduce. What good does it do the counselors or the rape survivor to be preoccupied with the notion that people might think he's--gasp--gay? It should be the last thing on one's mind, except that our society is so conditioned by latent and active bigotries that such fears seem legitimate.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
I thought I'd do some dancing with numbers, like the homophobe organizations. It's hard to find any stats on "Heterosexuals and Suicide". For instance:
http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/
* Now, should I point out that if only one out of five adolexcents reporting having attempted suicide in the past year is a "sexual minority youth", doesn't that mean the remaining four out of five are "sexual majority youth"? Looks like it's dangerous being part of that sexual majority, eh?
On a more serious note, how might one address such high rates of destructive behavior? Lon Mabon thinks the best thing is to prevent the public from addressing the specific concerns of youth who might feel compelled to take part in a society that does not reflect them. Mabon might think he's doing a good thing by preventing counselors from addressing homosexuality outside a negative context, but if those kids are coming to the counselors with problems stemming from alienation fostered by one's peers due to perceived homosexuality, the counselor needs something better than, "Just be straight."
http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/news/seattle.htm
In fact,the whole site's pretty much centered around the social harm inflicted on homosexuals by themselves and society. They have a 1999 Oregon study on there but it's presented in its more convoluted form; I tried flipping through the individual pages of the study on the Oregon site, but that was a pain in the ass; it's there if you want it, somewhere on the /youthsuicide/ page.
http://about.beliefnet.com/frameset_offsite.asp?pageLoc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebarna%2Eorg&query=sectionID%3D0%26storyID%3D591%26boardID%3D1013%26pageLoc%3D%2Fstory%2F5%2Fstory%5F591%5 F1%2Ehtml&script=/frameset.asp should lead you to the research company that published a story first mentioned here, I think, by Emerald, regarding Christianity and divorce.
Of my teen pregnancy numbers, well, I think you see the pointlessness in gathering homosexual teen pregnancy numbers. I'm sure some exist somewhere, but ... well, okay, I've given it a cursory Googling, and I really don't see anything directly linking teen pregnancy to homosexuality, so I'll leave it to anyone who wants to to fill in that blank.
http://www.nnfr.org/research/pv/pv_ch5.html
Dirty heterosexuals!
I chide the British because it took them until the 1990's ... heck, we weren't that much quicker. And this, like our anti-sodomy laws, was something we looked to "tradition" and "community standards" to support. British Chief Justice? (As a side note, in Hardwick v. Georgia, 1986, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the state's right to make anti-sodomy laws. Cited by the majority were traditions and legal codes dating back to Henry IV. The dissent mentioned these laws only long enough to say that just because the British have five-hundred years of laws on the subject speaks nothing of the situation in the United States of America. Something about when we Americans choose to admire the British legislative superiority, eh?
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/nij/181867.txt is a very interesting page which demonstrates a few things about domestic-partner violence. You, Bowser, will appreciate the telling numbers about homosexual violations, but will you read the next two paragraphs or so?
Should we make Men illegal?
http://www.utexas.edu/cee/dec/tcleose/assault/chap5.html
The whole thing's pretty cool, here. But I'll let you choose to read it or not; there's bits in there about the rape of men that make me want to campaign questions like: Why should a male victim of rape be afraid of being labeled gay? Or: Why was it that for many years, a male victim of rape by another male could look forward to being arrested for sodomy?
Because those, too, are part of the latent homophobia that grips the culture; this is the part that many gay-rights groups seek to address. That someone should live in a state of fear after a bodily violation is perfectly understandable; this is what those whose job it is to deal with such situations seek to reduce. What good does it do the counselors or the rape survivor to be preoccupied with the notion that people might think he's--gasp--gay? It should be the last thing on one's mind, except that our society is so conditioned by latent and active bigotries that such fears seem legitimate.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Tiassa,
Your first link was interesting, and I appreciate it's honesty:
"Silence is being broken about the gay / bisexual youth risk for being sexually abused / coerced and raped in gay communities. Tremblay and Ramsay (2000) summarize the situation and report on the Mutchler (2000) study. The Seal et. al. (2000) study reveals that GB male youth problems are multidimensional in nature and helping these youth will require a multidimensional approach. The American Gay Men's Health Movement (The Gay Men's Health Summits) are a step in the right direction, with much work still to be done. Generally, the welfare of adolescent gay and bisexual males continues to be ignored in gay communities, and especially the fact that many of these teenagers will be relating sexually with males often more than twice their age. Tremblay and Ramsay (2000) report information indicating that it has been very difficult for gay / bisexual teenagers to experience love from older gay males. As a rule, these youth report being used in much the same way as teenage male prostitutes are also used."
The second offered a certain tone which took aim at those nasty<a href = "http://www.safeschools-wa.org/boyscouts.html"> brutes in uniform. </a>
I question the source of your numbers, but I have not given them a good read yet. All of your links are new and deserve a good look. I will search through them. Thank you.
------------------
It's all very large.
Your first link was interesting, and I appreciate it's honesty:
"Silence is being broken about the gay / bisexual youth risk for being sexually abused / coerced and raped in gay communities. Tremblay and Ramsay (2000) summarize the situation and report on the Mutchler (2000) study. The Seal et. al. (2000) study reveals that GB male youth problems are multidimensional in nature and helping these youth will require a multidimensional approach. The American Gay Men's Health Movement (The Gay Men's Health Summits) are a step in the right direction, with much work still to be done. Generally, the welfare of adolescent gay and bisexual males continues to be ignored in gay communities, and especially the fact that many of these teenagers will be relating sexually with males often more than twice their age. Tremblay and Ramsay (2000) report information indicating that it has been very difficult for gay / bisexual teenagers to experience love from older gay males. As a rule, these youth report being used in much the same way as teenage male prostitutes are also used."
The second offered a certain tone which took aim at those nasty<a href = "http://www.safeschools-wa.org/boyscouts.html"> brutes in uniform. </a>
I question the source of your numbers, but I have not given them a good read yet. All of your links are new and deserve a good look. I will search through them. Thank you.
------------------
It's all very large.
Bowser,
Nice job with those links. What did you say it took you, 30 minutes? Fascinating how one can both find and read that much material in 30 min. Then again, apparently you did not bother reading it at all.
As I recall it, we were discussing the question of how much influence the environment has on sexuality, especially late in development. Out of all your links (11 of them!), only 1(the 2nd from top) addressed the issue. Several of your links flatly contradict each other (e.g. the suicide rate issue.) If you were aiming to waste my (and everyone else's) time with that junk, then congratulations -- you more than succeeded. A couple more such open demonstrations of sheer callousness, and I may feel compelled to ignore the links you post altogether. I'm only speaking for myself, of course, but I do believe my assessment may be representative of many others.
Now, concerning that second link, the <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html">Rekers paper</a>...
First of all, here's a juicy bit: Mr. Rekers, in addition to being a PhD, is also a Reverend. Resonates nicely with all the other material at leaderu that complains about how biased and partial modern psychology is. But that's only my opinion, I could be wrong.
To respond with substance, I will provide you with only one link. It is an excerpt from a book, largely dealing with Rekers' miracle cures and the reality behind them. Take your time with this one, I promise it's relevant:
http://www.rfts.a.se/taboo.html
So much for therapy, eh? Now, will you listen to what I've been saying? Sexual identity cannot be altered or "cured" late in life. At best, any attempts to do so result in terrible damage to the "patient" -- damage not unlike that which follows a protracted history of rape.
Silly. The animals I used were great apes. A far cry from a rat, don't you think? And to pin you down on the issue: when you say "mind", do you mean "brain" or "soul"?
No, I wouldn't agree.
First, no animal is born with a predisposition to salivate more or less in response to a bell. Sexual orientation, on the other hand, is a physiological bias that predates any conditioning.
Second, conditioning works equally well regardless of age. Sexual orientation (as are many major personality traits) exhibits a flexibility that is reliably and drastically age-dependent.
Yes, you could say that. You could take the position that, in terms of genetics, homosexuality is harmful to procreation and as such an undesirable trait. However, since we have managed to evolve into thinking beings, I should hope our attitudes and policies would be governed by more than mere primal impulse. I don't know about you, but I prefer to think of myself more in terms of a human than an animal.
Besides, even evolutionarily speaking homosexuality may not be such a bad thing. For example, it may play a role in population control. For another example, homosexual individuals may fulfill certain roles that benefit the species as a whole. They may even engage in behavior that directly benefits their genetic relatives, thereby indirectly promoting the homosexual genes. Even if none of the above is true at the moment (which is probably the case), it could have been true in the past, may become true in the future, and not necessarily in humans. So you see, deviations are not intrinsically good or bad. They always have a potential to evolve into useful adaptations.
Curious summation. I apparently believe this, but "then again" I believe that. As someone who is rather fond of logic and rationality, I assure you that my "idea" bears no such blatant self-contradiction. If it did, I would have rejected it long ago. Let me assure you of something else: I "concede" nothing.
Here's what I state: sexuality is born out of physiological developmental biases. To an overwhelming degree, it is shaped while still in the womb (which means genetics as well as environmental physics are the main determinants.) The remaining shaping occurs early in life, during infant and toddler phases. Sexuality solidifies together with other major personality traits as a result of solidification in the architecture of the developing brain. Flexibility in sexuality (and other major personality traits) has a direct correlation with the flexibility of the brain's large-scale architecture. The brains of school-age children are consolidated to such a degree that no major personality trait can be changed by any method other than brain lesion.
You bet. As for the "evidence", refer to that excerpt regarding Rekers. You'll find a taste of just what kind of "evidence" there is for the "notion that sexual identity can be altered later in life".
------------------
I am; therefore I think.
Nice job with those links. What did you say it took you, 30 minutes? Fascinating how one can both find and read that much material in 30 min. Then again, apparently you did not bother reading it at all.
As I recall it, we were discussing the question of how much influence the environment has on sexuality, especially late in development. Out of all your links (11 of them!), only 1(the 2nd from top) addressed the issue. Several of your links flatly contradict each other (e.g. the suicide rate issue.) If you were aiming to waste my (and everyone else's) time with that junk, then congratulations -- you more than succeeded. A couple more such open demonstrations of sheer callousness, and I may feel compelled to ignore the links you post altogether. I'm only speaking for myself, of course, but I do believe my assessment may be representative of many others.
Now, concerning that second link, the <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html">Rekers paper</a>...
First of all, here's a juicy bit: Mr. Rekers, in addition to being a PhD, is also a Reverend. Resonates nicely with all the other material at leaderu that complains about how biased and partial modern psychology is. But that's only my opinion, I could be wrong.
To respond with substance, I will provide you with only one link. It is an excerpt from a book, largely dealing with Rekers' miracle cures and the reality behind them. Take your time with this one, I promise it's relevant:
http://www.rfts.a.se/taboo.html
So much for therapy, eh? Now, will you listen to what I've been saying? Sexual identity cannot be altered or "cured" late in life. At best, any attempts to do so result in terrible damage to the "patient" -- damage not unlike that which follows a protracted history of rape.
Silly. The animals I used were great apes. A far cry from a rat, don't you think? And to pin you down on the issue: when you say "mind", do you mean "brain" or "soul"?
No, I wouldn't agree.
First, no animal is born with a predisposition to salivate more or less in response to a bell. Sexual orientation, on the other hand, is a physiological bias that predates any conditioning.
Second, conditioning works equally well regardless of age. Sexual orientation (as are many major personality traits) exhibits a flexibility that is reliably and drastically age-dependent.
Yes, you could say that. You could take the position that, in terms of genetics, homosexuality is harmful to procreation and as such an undesirable trait. However, since we have managed to evolve into thinking beings, I should hope our attitudes and policies would be governed by more than mere primal impulse. I don't know about you, but I prefer to think of myself more in terms of a human than an animal.
Besides, even evolutionarily speaking homosexuality may not be such a bad thing. For example, it may play a role in population control. For another example, homosexual individuals may fulfill certain roles that benefit the species as a whole. They may even engage in behavior that directly benefits their genetic relatives, thereby indirectly promoting the homosexual genes. Even if none of the above is true at the moment (which is probably the case), it could have been true in the past, may become true in the future, and not necessarily in humans. So you see, deviations are not intrinsically good or bad. They always have a potential to evolve into useful adaptations.
Curious summation. I apparently believe this, but "then again" I believe that. As someone who is rather fond of logic and rationality, I assure you that my "idea" bears no such blatant self-contradiction. If it did, I would have rejected it long ago. Let me assure you of something else: I "concede" nothing.
Here's what I state: sexuality is born out of physiological developmental biases. To an overwhelming degree, it is shaped while still in the womb (which means genetics as well as environmental physics are the main determinants.) The remaining shaping occurs early in life, during infant and toddler phases. Sexuality solidifies together with other major personality traits as a result of solidification in the architecture of the developing brain. Flexibility in sexuality (and other major personality traits) has a direct correlation with the flexibility of the brain's large-scale architecture. The brains of school-age children are consolidated to such a degree that no major personality trait can be changed by any method other than brain lesion.
You bet. As for the "evidence", refer to that excerpt regarding Rekers. You'll find a taste of just what kind of "evidence" there is for the "notion that sexual identity can be altered later in life".
------------------
I am; therefore I think.
Geeeezzzzzz you people are sooo mean!
How is accepting a gay child the same as accepting a fat child!? Does this mean that my parents should think I'm gay, just because ain't a size 2. "FAT" people don't need an association to feel accepted! We don't need to have a class teaching other kids about why we're fat. Do you know the humiliation of when everyone glares at you like you're an alien creature with a head growing out of your butt. And there should be no certain classes explaing gay people it should just go along with Sex Ed.
Why must people catagorize their own species, can everyone understand that everyone is the same? I watch tv and i hear people saying they're ready to accept alien life....... FIRST, humans mus learn to accept eachother- race/size/rep./personality.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHILE YOUR HERE IS TO HAVE A GOOD TIME, NOT TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT EVERYONE THINKS AND HOW YOU LOOK!
YOU are ALL perfect, I see NO flaws.
<3
shana
I'm sorry if I sound really mean or mad in this post. But if you don't like my opinion just disreguard it.
even though I don't know everyone in the world; I luv ya and every1 else!
*your smile makes me smile*
How is accepting a gay child the same as accepting a fat child!? Does this mean that my parents should think I'm gay, just because ain't a size 2. "FAT" people don't need an association to feel accepted! We don't need to have a class teaching other kids about why we're fat. Do you know the humiliation of when everyone glares at you like you're an alien creature with a head growing out of your butt. And there should be no certain classes explaing gay people it should just go along with Sex Ed.
Why must people catagorize their own species, can everyone understand that everyone is the same? I watch tv and i hear people saying they're ready to accept alien life....... FIRST, humans mus learn to accept eachother- race/size/rep./personality.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHILE YOUR HERE IS TO HAVE A GOOD TIME, NOT TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT EVERYONE THINKS AND HOW YOU LOOK!
YOU are ALL perfect, I see NO flaws.
<3
shana
I'm sorry if I sound really mean or mad in this post. But if you don't like my opinion just disreguard it.
even though I don't know everyone in the world; I luv ya and every1 else!
*your smile makes me smile*
Shana,
[sniff] Yeah, Boris and Tiassa have been bashing me because I'm a heterosexual. They can't accept me because I'm different. The isolation and intolerance is a bit too much for this fella. [sniff, sniff...]
Honestly, Teassa/Boris are giving a good argument on the behalf of heterophobes. It is more than negative emotion.
------------------
It's all very large.
[sniff] Yeah, Boris and Tiassa have been bashing me because I'm a heterosexual. They can't accept me because I'm different. The isolation and intolerance is a bit too much for this fella. [sniff, sniff...]
Honestly, Teassa/Boris are giving a good argument on the behalf of heterophobes. It is more than negative emotion.
------------------
It's all very large.