Sure, but if they just opress, murder, and destroy the German people (like they do to the Palestinians, which don't deserve it, the Germans at least somewhat), then they can have it! After all, Germany OWES them. Palestine doesn't.
Israel's creation made Palestinians victims of Holocaust
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
- Status
Sure, but if they just opress, murder, and destroy the German people (like they do to the Palestinians, which don't deserve it, the Germans at least somewhat), then they can have it! After all, Germany OWES them. Palestine doesn't.
Do you see the Nazis in power today? Of course not. No, Germany does owe (certainly more than Palestine would) to the Jewish people and by that alone, the Jewish people should be allowed to get their revenge, or at least half of Germany without incident. That would solve EVERYONE'S problems.
Another day, another jew hater on Sciforums. The more things change, the more they stay the same, no?
I am saying let's put this behind us.
Evil and wrong? Yes. Cowardly? No.
Mod Note: Zarlok's posts have been deleted for anti-semitism and hate speech.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
The Holocaust was a culmination of a thousand years of antisemitism by the Christian nations of Europe. The Germans may have been the worst but the Slavs were not much better. I have Slavic ancestors on one branch of my family tree and Jewish ancestors on another, and from family diaries it appears that the Slavs were doing their best to persecute the Jews in the 1870s. It seems to me that most of the European peoples share the guilt for making antisemitism one of the defining features of Christendom. Nazism arose in Germany because of the accidents of history that befell the Germans at the end of WWI, so the racial purity laws and concentration camps happened to be built in Germany when they were finally built. But can anyone say that if the course of history in the 1920s and 1930s had been any different, they would not have been built just as enthusiastically in Poland, Austria, Bohemia, Hungary, or any of a dozen other European countries?
I think that the larger European community had the responsibility for building a culture that made the Holocaust possible and the responsibility for giving the Jewish refugees a homeland did not have to fall solely on Germany. The very least they could have done was allow the refugees to return to their own bombed-out, burned-out neighborhoods and rebuild, which is what virtually every Jewish person of that generation I ever heard speak said they all wanted to do. And that was the one thing they did not want to do: welcome their Jewish neighbors back.
Nonetheless, I agree that the Palestinians were blameless. In general Muslim peoples in the Middle East had for a long time treated the Jews among them somewhat better than the European Christians did. Even the Turks, in their paroxysm of violence when their empire was crumbling, began annihilating the Christian people in their remote regions, not their Jews. This enmity between the Jews and the Palestinians, Iranians, Lebanese, Saudis, and to a greater or lesser extent almost every Muslim nation in the Middle East, is a very recent development and has everything to do with the establishment of Israel, by the British and other Europeans, in the middle of a Muslim region.
My wife has two Mercedes and she spent many thousands of miles on the back of my BMW motorcycle.
Palestinians were not victims of the Holocaust because the sympathy for the Holocaust was not why the UK, France, USA and the Soviet Union decided to support the creation of Israel. The foreign policy establishments of these four nations have never done anything (with the exception of defending themselves against Hitler) for non-Machiavellian, non-amoral reasons.
I can't prove it, but I think it was the Pan-Arab desire to form an alliance with Hitler that made the 4 victorious powers decide to push the creation of Israel through the UN. After WW1 Germany quickly rebounded and lashed out ferociously and powerfully. In 1947 nobody could have known that the Marshall plan would work and that Germany would not be launching WW3 in 1962. One of the major factors in defeating Germany in WW2 was that the Germans were cut off from their oil supply. Germany was also short one major ally.
Many Arabs were wanting to be Hitler's ally in WW2 because of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principal. The British had promised the Arabs independence in exchange for Arab support in WW1. The British reneged on their promise and instead Britain and France tried to turn the Arab world into a collection of colonies and puppet states. The Arabs wanted a single glorious Arab state.
Although not much oil was being pumped in the Middle East in 1920 the British were aware that there was a lot of oil in the region, and were aware that oil would become increasingly important. The British intended to control that oil.
In 1947 the 4 powers knew they needed a safe base from which they could close the Suez canal if needed and deny Germany access to oil in WW3. Israel was that safe Base.
Jews (mostly recent unwelcome immigrants) were 30% of the population of Palestine and owned 10% of the Palestinian land in 1947. As the Jews arrived from Europe from 1880 to 1947 they were able to use their relative wealth as Europeans to buy land from Palestinian, Turkish, Syrian and Egyptian Landlords in Palestine. These landlords were often absentee land lords living in the neighboring provinces. Many tenant farmers had to leave the homes their families had lived in for generations when their landlords sold the land for European money. Land prices rose as the new money arrived from Europe. The Palestinians were also aware by 1910 that many of these new immigrants desired to turn Palestine into a Jewish controlled area. These wounds were the beginning of the Palestinian resentment against Jews, particularly European Jews. Palestinian protests pressured their Turkish rulers into banning European/Jewish immigration into Palestine a few years before WW1. When the British liberated/conquered Palestine at the end of WW1 they ended the Ban on Immigration to Palestine despite the objection and protests of the Palestinian majority.
In 1947 when the UN ruled against the Palestinians and gave away half of their homeland to the strangers, the Palestinians believed that they and their Arab neighbors so outnumbered the Jews, that driving the Jews out of Palestine against the wishes of the 4 powers and the 4 power controlled UN would not be all that difficult.
Because of the Holocaust they Jews deserve Israel and much more than Israel as compensation. Germany, Russia, Spain and Europeans in general had all sinned against the European Jews over the previous 5 centuries. Europe owed the Jews, but Europe owed people all over the world and never had any interest in paying of any of their other moral debts. King Leopold of Belgium killed a million Congolese and almost no Europeans cared. Further more, it was the Europeans, not the Palestinians who owed this debt to the Jews. The UN partition decision was clearly unjust because it made the wrong people pay the debt to the Jews.
The Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to evict the Jews in 1948. Their cause was just. The European Jews were trying to steal their land. As for the the claim that Israel was given to the descendants of Isaac, keep in mind that the Palestinians are probably more descended from Isaac than the European Jews are. The Palestinian have a higher proportion of Cohen Modal Haplotype than the European Jews do.
How would Americans feel if a hundred million Chinese became Mormons, then suffered a holocaust and then the UN and some very powerful nations tried to give half of the United States to the survivors of the Chinese Mormon Holocaust? The USA is the Mormon homeland, America is where Mormanism began, shouldn't the Chinese Mormons have a homeland of their own were they can be safe? Americans should just leave and make for the poor Chinese Mormons. Anglos already have many other nations; what do the need America for when there are so many Anglo countries like Canada, Australia, the UK, Ireland, Jamaica and India?
While the Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to keep their homeland they can be faulted at being unprepared for their war and underestimating the Jews and overestimating their allies. The Palestinians were idiots for thinking that the British appointed puppet King Abdullah of Jordan would rescue them. They had to rescue themselves just as the Jews had to rescue themselves. Some say that there is evidence that Abdullah had negotiated the Partiton of the Palestinian state between himself and the new Israeli emerging nation. There was one small battle between Jordanians and Israelis in 1948 but the "Abdullah was a traitor" believers point out that the for the most part Abdullah's forces simply marched in and occupied the West bank and never engaged the Israelis in battle despite Jordan's/Abdullah's claims that he entered the West bank for the purpose of fighting Israel. Abdullah was asasinated for his treason against Pan Arab nationalism.
Forces from Egypt and small forces from the other new Arab states did fight the Israelis. Israel won. You can only speculate what the Arabs would have done to the Jews if they won. You can only speculate whether the British would have intervened if Israel stated losing.
Now Palestinians and Jews have been killing each other for 60 years. What would have happened if the UN had only given the Jews 30% of Palestine and the British left a force to help protect the Jews?
Every Israeli attack is a retaliation for a Palestinian attack and every Palestinian attack is a retaliation for a Israeli attack and when the two sides can prove which came first, the Chicken or the Egg, then there will be peace in the Middle East.
I can't prove it, but I think it was the Pan-Arab desire to form an alliance with Hitler that made the 4 victorious powers decide to push the creation of Israel through the UN. After WW1 Germany quickly rebounded and lashed out ferociously and powerfully. In 1947 nobody could have known that the Marshall plan would work and that Germany would not be launching WW3 in 1962. One of the major factors in defeating Germany in WW2 was that the Germans were cut off from their oil supply. Germany was also short one major ally.
Many Arabs were wanting to be Hitler's ally in WW2 because of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principal. The British had promised the Arabs independence in exchange for Arab support in WW1. The British reneged on their promise and instead Britain and France tried to turn the Arab world into a collection of colonies and puppet states. The Arabs wanted a single glorious Arab state.
Although not much oil was being pumped in the Middle East in 1920 the British were aware that there was a lot of oil in the region, and were aware that oil would become increasingly important. The British intended to control that oil.
In 1947 the 4 powers knew they needed a safe base from which they could close the Suez canal if needed and deny Germany access to oil in WW3. Israel was that safe Base.
Jews (mostly recent unwelcome immigrants) were 30% of the population of Palestine and owned 10% of the Palestinian land in 1947. As the Jews arrived from Europe from 1880 to 1947 they were able to use their relative wealth as Europeans to buy land from Palestinian, Turkish, Syrian and Egyptian Landlords in Palestine. These landlords were often absentee land lords living in the neighboring provinces. Many tenant farmers had to leave the homes their families had lived in for generations when their landlords sold the land for European money. Land prices rose as the new money arrived from Europe. The Palestinians were also aware by 1910 that many of these new immigrants desired to turn Palestine into a Jewish controlled area. These wounds were the beginning of the Palestinian resentment against Jews, particularly European Jews. Palestinian protests pressured their Turkish rulers into banning European/Jewish immigration into Palestine a few years before WW1. When the British liberated/conquered Palestine at the end of WW1 they ended the Ban on Immigration to Palestine despite the objection and protests of the Palestinian majority.
In 1947 when the UN ruled against the Palestinians and gave away half of their homeland to the strangers, the Palestinians believed that they and their Arab neighbors so outnumbered the Jews, that driving the Jews out of Palestine against the wishes of the 4 powers and the 4 power controlled UN would not be all that difficult.
Because of the Holocaust they Jews deserve Israel and much more than Israel as compensation. Germany, Russia, Spain and Europeans in general had all sinned against the European Jews over the previous 5 centuries. Europe owed the Jews, but Europe owed people all over the world and never had any interest in paying of any of their other moral debts. King Leopold of Belgium killed a million Congolese and almost no Europeans cared. Further more, it was the Europeans, not the Palestinians who owed this debt to the Jews. The UN partition decision was clearly unjust because it made the wrong people pay the debt to the Jews.
The Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to evict the Jews in 1948. Their cause was just. The European Jews were trying to steal their land. As for the the claim that Israel was given to the descendants of Isaac, keep in mind that the Palestinians are probably more descended from Isaac than the European Jews are. The Palestinian have a higher proportion of Cohen Modal Haplotype than the European Jews do.
How would Americans feel if a hundred million Chinese became Mormons, then suffered a holocaust and then the UN and some very powerful nations tried to give half of the United States to the survivors of the Chinese Mormon Holocaust? The USA is the Mormon homeland, America is where Mormanism began, shouldn't the Chinese Mormons have a homeland of their own were they can be safe? Americans should just leave and make for the poor Chinese Mormons. Anglos already have many other nations; what do the need America for when there are so many Anglo countries like Canada, Australia, the UK, Ireland, Jamaica and India?
While the Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to keep their homeland they can be faulted at being unprepared for their war and underestimating the Jews and overestimating their allies. The Palestinians were idiots for thinking that the British appointed puppet King Abdullah of Jordan would rescue them. They had to rescue themselves just as the Jews had to rescue themselves. Some say that there is evidence that Abdullah had negotiated the Partiton of the Palestinian state between himself and the new Israeli emerging nation. There was one small battle between Jordanians and Israelis in 1948 but the "Abdullah was a traitor" believers point out that the for the most part Abdullah's forces simply marched in and occupied the West bank and never engaged the Israelis in battle despite Jordan's/Abdullah's claims that he entered the West bank for the purpose of fighting Israel. Abdullah was asasinated for his treason against Pan Arab nationalism.
Forces from Egypt and small forces from the other new Arab states did fight the Israelis. Israel won. You can only speculate what the Arabs would have done to the Jews if they won. You can only speculate whether the British would have intervened if Israel stated losing.
Now Palestinians and Jews have been killing each other for 60 years. What would have happened if the UN had only given the Jews 30% of Palestine and the British left a force to help protect the Jews?
Every Israeli attack is a retaliation for a Palestinian attack and every Palestinian attack is a retaliation for a Israeli attack and when the two sides can prove which came first, the Chicken or the Egg, then there will be peace in the Middle East.
An interesting summation, nirakar. I would only add that I do think it would be fair to consider the wishes of the Chinese Mormons, because it's not race, it's culture that matters.
Nazism was a symptom, and the Jews weren't the only inferior peoples (mental patients, Hungarians, and especially the Poles got the idea too).
And Nazism was really just one in a big list - they targeted Jews because they were targetable, and initially sought power and influence. But sure, Hitler loathed the Jews, but he loathed a lot of things (he probably loathed himself and his own insecurities and latent homosexuality, he was also a paedophile - just the guy you need in charge when you're looking for a bit of nationalistic resurgence).
The Palestinians and Syrians and Egyptians all came close to defeating Israel; arguably they didn't because of the determination of the West and the failed military/political systems in the East.
The East, and particularly the Middle bit, or the Arab world, still has nothing like the unity of Western nations, and it got "done over" by the Brits, Belgians, French, etc. like Africa did.
And Nazism was really just one in a big list - they targeted Jews because they were targetable, and initially sought power and influence. But sure, Hitler loathed the Jews, but he loathed a lot of things (he probably loathed himself and his own insecurities and latent homosexuality, he was also a paedophile - just the guy you need in charge when you're looking for a bit of nationalistic resurgence).
The Palestinians and Syrians and Egyptians all came close to defeating Israel; arguably they didn't because of the determination of the West and the failed military/political systems in the East.
The East, and particularly the Middle bit, or the Arab world, still has nothing like the unity of Western nations, and it got "done over" by the Brits, Belgians, French, etc. like Africa did.
Well, depending on what time period you are talking about. The Arabs did conquer Spain and Portugal and controlled them for 700 years.
It's just a struggle. But with Semitic unity, we can eliminate this harmful foreign influence and truly rise to power.
It's just a struggle. But with Semitic unity, we can eliminate this harmful foreign influence and truly rise to power.
Violence is a circle, jerk.
Mod Note: Zarlok's complaints about moderation have been deleted.
You have got to be kidding. They prefer Berlin over Israel, and thats Holocaust survivors.
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3388445,00.html
Well, that's not typical.
Israelis already have a home, thanks.
- Status