Israel's creation made Palestinians victims of Holocaust

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Mr.Spock said:
you said not giving them money, now you say do give them money? ...
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Do you not understand the difference between PAYING MONEY (for something taken or bought) and GIVING MONEY (To someone)?

I think eradicating the main just claim of the Palestinians, by PAYING for the property taken from them would be very effective blow against the terrorist's ability to recruit suicide bombers. You seem to want to continue the same policies that have failed for more than 3 decades.

When the suicide bomber is dispersing Anthrax spoors instead of nails and bolts, you will regret the obvious stubborn stupidity of your POV.

You are no friend of Israel. Your hate is so strong that you can not think of anything but "stay the course" with a 40 year failure growing more dangerous every year as biotechnology advances. YOU and others like you ARE A THREAT - A DANGER TO ISRAEL.

Again I ask you to try to consider the 7 point plan* I offered trying to give Israel's a more secure future - the current plan is and has failed. It is time to think - not just to hate.
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*http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115
 
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nirakar said:
The Palestinians are the Jews. The Palestinians and European Jews just don't know that. The genocides and expulsions in historical Israel/Palestine were probably always local.

Jewish religion has a lot of appeal. They have a better, more sophisticated and durable "we are the chosen people story" than most of the other "we are the chosen people" stories. It is not surprising that people in ancient Israel converted to Judaism. It is not surprising that People in Europe converted to Judaism.

I don't think Israel was ever emptied of people. Jerusalem was probably emptied of it's people. If frequency of the Cohen Modal Haplotype indicates Jewishness, then the Palestinians are more Jewish than the Jews are. Even without DNA, just by looking at European Jews, it is obvious that most of their DNA is European DNA.

I don't doubt that European Jews are the descendants of the ancient Jews, I just think that in all probability the Palestinians are more descended from the Ancient Jews than European Jews are.

The Hejaz Arab population was small. They spread their language and religion over a vast area by converting people, not by displacing people. There is probably no century prior to the last century in which the people living in Israel/Palestine at the end of the Century were not 80% or more descended from the people living in Israel/Palestine at the beginning of the century.
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Or the Israelis and Palestinians have common origins.

As for conversion, that has until very recently been a contentious issue in Judaism. Or don't you know that? In fact, Ashkenazi Jews also discriminate against Sephardic Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews as not Jewish enough or something.


Our Neighborhood is 100 percent Sephardic-free:
Meet Rav and Shmuel Street in the ultra-Orthodox town of Kiryat Sefer in central Israel: A corner street, a great view, and lots of children with side curls playing around. But there is something else this street has: It is the only street in Israel where Jews of Middle Eastern descent are not allowed to move to.

The Brachfeld neighborhood's reception committee decided to ban additional Sephardic families from entering streets and buildings in which 35 percent of the tenants are Sephardic....The reception committee recently decided that there are too many residents of Middle Eastern descent in some of Brachfeld's streets and buildings. Therefore, Sephardic Jews wishing to live in the town cannot live on Rav and Shmuel Street and are directed to other streets.
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Mr.Spock said:
actually they drove jews from the west bank. nobody remember this.


we gave them money over a decade, including the US and the EU. terrorism only increased. you suggestion is wrong.


the haaretz is as liberal as it gets.
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what is your problem with liberals anyway
 
Billy T said:
Do you not understand the difference between PAYING MONEY (for something taken or bought) and GIVING MONEY (To someone)?

I think eradicating the main just claim of the Palestinians, by PAYING for the property taken from them would be very effective blow against the terrorist's ability to recruit suicide bombers.

You seem to want to continue the same policies that have failed for more than 3 decades.

When the suicide bomber is dispersing Anthrax spoors instead of nails and bolt, you will regret the obvious stubborn stupidity of your POV. You are no friend of Israel.

Again I ask you to try to consider the 7 point plan* I offered trying to give Israel's a more secure future - the current plan is and has failed. It is time to think - not just to hate.
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*link to plan details soon to be here by edit
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I think my plan was the best.......integrate both the Israelis and Palestinians under one nation, one flag, one banner, one government, in unity and peace.
 
Norsefire said:
I think my plan was the best.......integrate both the Israelis and Palestinians under one nation, one flag, one banner, one government, in unity and peace.
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Very long term - yes, but after at least 2 or 3 generations of peaceful separation (cars accidents killing more than rockets fired either from the ground or helicopters and jets, I'd call "peace")

Plan I suggested long ago:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115
is not perfect, but does seem to have a chance to let this "peace" last for the required time. No one has said how or why it would fail. Only attacked me for suggesting it.
 
Unless a plan involves integration and unity of the Semites, I do not like it. Mere peace while maintaining animosity is not good enough. The West's goal is to divide the Semites, of course, and that is evident in itself: Lebanon, Israel, etc

Because they know that a united Semitic league would be, more or less, unstoppable.
 
Norsefire said:
Unless a plan involves integration and unity of the Semites, I do not like it. Mere peace while maintaining animosity is not good enough. The West's goal is to divide the Semites, of course, and that is evident in itself: Lebanon, Israel, etc
Because they know that a united Semitic league would be, more or less, unstoppable.
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I think you are being very unrealistic. Most of the middle east is populated with basically tribal peoples who were mutually hostile to each other long before Colmbus even set sail for the new world. You seem to want to blame the west for long standing local problems. Have you not heard of the Israelites period of bondage in ancient Egypt? etc.
 
Billy T said:
I think you are being very unrealistic. Most of the middle east is populated with basically tribal peoples who were mutually hostile to each other long before Colmbus even set sail for the new world. You seem to want to blame the west for long standing local problems. Have you not heard of the Israelites period of bondage in ancient Egypt? etc.
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Of course, but that was the past not the future. And no, the West IS trying to seperate the Middle East for their own purposes. Look at Lebanon, look at them turning Saudi against Iraq (although they were never friends, it was made worse by the West) and basically Israel, and really anything that would get unity, they'll counter it.
 
Billy T said:
I think you are being very unrealistic. Most of the middle east is populated with basically tribal peoples who were mutually hostile to each other long before Colmbus even set sail for the new world. You seem to want to blame the west for long standing local problems. Have you not heard of the Israelites period of bondage in ancient Egypt? etc.
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Not really, the Middle East is like India, people had differences in their language and culture and preferred to maintain the distinction but through the 800 years of rule under the Ottoman administration, they were fairly self administering themselves without any hostility towards each other; they had opinions of superiority of course, with each one considering themselves most <insert attribute>. Of course there were excpetions to the rule but in general ME nations/tribes do not spend their time invading each other. Not to the same extent as the west does.
 
Mr.Spock said:
and if mexico or canada lobbed missiles onto your home you all be like nuke mexico\canada, right? dont tell me you wont.
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Uh excuse me but Saudi Arabian financing, planning and hijackers lobbed four airliners at us. Our government has not punished them at all.

Even for the sake of argument if Americans got as crazy as you suggest in their panic and started murdering innocent Mexicans and Canadians wholesale for the transgression of a few fanatics, that does not make it right! The international community is supposed to rein in rogue states. Admittedly that would be difficult for practical reasons if it were the U.S., but it should not be difficult to rein in Israel. Somebody simply has to have the cojones to do it.
nirakar said:
The Palestinians are the Jews. I just think that in all probability the Palestinians are more descended from the Ancient Jews than European Jews are.
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From what I've read on the subject, I think what happened to the Canaanities was that certain tribes adopted Judaism and others didn't. They lived in proximity for quite a while but then the Jews went on the Diaspora while the Palestinians stayed. The Jews picked up a lot of foreign DNA in their travels so they appear less related to the original Hebrews.
S.A.M. said:
Ashkenazi Jews also discriminate against Sephardic Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews as not Jewish enough or something.
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The Ashkenazim regarded the Sephardim as lower-class because they had not spent a thousand years picking up "superior" European culture. This enmity has abated considerably (but not completely) after three generations of them living together in Israel with their children going to the same schools.

The Ethiopian Falasha Jews had a unique problem. They had wandered off from the other tribes so long ago that many of the experiences that are considered to define Judaism and inform some of its most treasured attitudes and rituals, for example Chanukkah and the siege of Masada, were ones that they completely missed. A rough analogy would be the Orthodox Christians--or worse yet the Mormons--petitioning to rejoin the Catholic Church. It really was not quite the same religion. In an Israel that was run by the Orthodox Jews as a theocracy, this was a big problem. Ultimately they relented and let them in. Considering that when my wife, as one experience in her Hippie Walkabout in the 1960s, did a stint on a kubbutz, they desperately tried to convince her to stay despite being raised as a Christian, they could hardly turn down the Falashas.
 
S.A.M. said:
...through the 800 years of rule under the Ottoman administration, they were fairly self administering themselves without any hostility towards each other...
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That is what makes the Israeli/Palestine problem ENTIRELY different. Perhaps I am being too optimistic, by suggesting that in only 2 or 3 generation of "peaceful separation" some steps towards integration of these very similar (genetically)* peoples may be possible.

Norsefire has not offered any suggestion of a mechanism by which the (IMHO long term) goal of one unified nation could be achieved in even a few years. Surely he does not think that a UN decree would achieve that unified nation. So I ask: how do you envision one nation, PI, coming into existence -or is your idea just a pipedream -wish it could be so?

Immediate creation of PI, is "pie in the sky" unrealistic. The hatreds are too deep and will only be eliminated by many peaceful deaths of old age - never by the present failed approach. I suspect Iran has an Anthrax dispersal system in development - as that is much easier to achieve than nuclear weapons. Israel is a tiny nation with a relatively low birth rate and doomed if it is too stupid to learn from 4 decades of failed policy.
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*Because it is true - a fact - I of course agree with Fraggle Rocker et. al. that the Palestinians are more closely related genetically to the Hebrews of the Old Testimate. - I.e. they are Abraham’s most direct and similar gene pool now living. Thus, modern genetic analysis supports the Palestinian claim to the land more than that of the European Jews who returned recently, with "mixed genetics."
 
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it takes a delusional person to think he can have peace with someone who threaten to kill him.
 
Mr.Spock said:
it takes a delusional person to think he can have peace with someone who threaten to kill him.
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Yes, if also foolish enough not to take effective protective measures. Some, like you, are that "delusional" and worse as not able to learn from 40 years of a failed policy* to adopt new and effective defensive measures. They continue to advocate a "stay the course" policy.** - That is very very stupid but perhaps their brains are so hate filled that thought is no longer possible.
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* "Failed" as under that policy even women now with less to live for (as Israel makes conditions ever worse, etc) are willing to die as suicide bombers; Volunteer bombers and support money now comes from all over the Arab world; Genetics and anthrax weapon development is nearly perfected for those who do not mind dying with hundreds (or thousands?) of their victims, etc.

SUMMARY: “Failed” as the danger to Israel is increasing every year this 40 year old, failed policy is thoughtlessly extended.

**Dumb as he is, even GWB learned to change a failed policy in only 10% of the time Israel has continued its failed policy.

P.S. Your turn to resume name calling instead of thinking or commenting on the effective defensive plan I suggested.
 
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Billy T said:
That is what makes the Israeli/Palestine problem ENTIRELY different. Perhaps I am being too optimistic, by suggesting that in only 2 or 3 generation of "peaceful separation" some steps towards integration of these very similar (genetically)* peoples may be possible.

Norsefire has not offered any suggestion of a mechanism by which the (IMHO long term) goal of one unified nation could be achieved in even a few years. Surely he does not think that a UN decree would achieve that unified nation. So I ask: how do you envision one nation, PI, coming into existence -or is your idea just a pipedream -wish it could be so?

Immediate creation of PI, is "pie in the sky" unrealistic. The hatreds are too deep and will only be eliminated by many peaceful deaths of old age - never by the present failed approach. I suspect Iran has an Anthrax dispersal system in development - as that is much easier to achieve than nuclear weapons. Israel is a tiny nation with a relatively low birth rate and doomed if it is too stupid to learn from 4 decades of failed policy.
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*Because it is true - a fact - I of course agree with Fraggle Rocker et. al. that the Palestinians are more closely related genetically to the Hebrews of the Old Testimate. - I.e. they are Abraham’s most direct and similar gene pool now living. Thus, modern genetic analysis supports the Palestinian claim to the land more than that of the European Jews who returned recently, with "mixed genetics."
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The UN is the one that created the mess and hence should mop it up. Best way would be to force Israel to recognise the rights of Palestinians, worst case, declare the formation of Israel void.

ie they either recognise that the UN can enforce a resolution or not.

Its dangerous to ignore the calls for a Palestinian shoah at this point, especially since all Israeli ministers are talking of an all out military offensive into Gaza.

My own opinion is that the Palestinians should petition for Israeli citizenship. I'm pretty sure the Security Council can enforce a petition like that.
 
S.A.M. said:
...My own opinion is that the Palestinians should petition for Israeli citizenship. I'm pretty sure the Security Council can enforce a petition like that.
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Quite a few Palestnians already are Israeli citizen (of a secnd class - with very resticted rights - limits on almost eveything from where they can live, what they can wear, where they can work, need permit to move, etc.) I don't think more of them would even be accepted by Israel even if some wanted to become citizens.
 
S.A.M. said:
Or the Israelis and Palestinians have common origins.

As for conversion, that has until very recently been a contentious issue in Judaism. Or don't you know that? In fact, Ashkenazi Jews also discriminate against Sephardic Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews as not Jewish enough or something.


Our Neighborhood is 100 percent Sephardic-free:
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I know enough to be provocative, but I am mostly ignorant about Jewish culture.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
From what I've read on the subject, I think what happened to the Canaanities was that certain tribes adopted Judaism and others didn't. They lived in proximity for quite a while but then the Jews went on the Diaspora while the Palestinians stayed. The Jews picked up a lot of foreign DNA in their travels so they appear less related to the original Hebrews.
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Semi-reliable History of the Jews goes back further than it does for most ethnic groups, but it does not go back earlier than 300 BC. The Jewish and Greek histories of Jews before that time are completely unreliable. Too bad that Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian records.

Kings David and Solomon never controlled most of modern Israel if they existed at all.

Some Egyptian records of pre-Jewish Israel survived but they don't give any clues about the origin of the Jewish religion/ethnic group. I don't know what to make of the similarity of Habiru/ Hapiru/ Apiru with Hebrew.

The birth of current Judaism might have been an amalgamation of all of the anti-Seleucid sentiments in Seleucid Israel. There is an ancient Iranian/Iraqi influence noticeable in Judeo-Christianity so even if the book of Daniel gets it's facts wrong I do think there was something true about the influence of the Jewish/Judah captivity and return. I don't know if the people that Babylon captured at Jerusalem should be called Jews or just one component of the as yet uncreated Jewish people.

The French did not exist as a people until the Frankish, Latin and Celtic peoples of France melted into one people. The name France comes from the Franks but the Franks are not French. The Name Jews comes from Judah, but I don't think Judah was anymore Jewish than the Franks are French.
 
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