Israel & Palestine

[fedr808]

PS I assume you mean hypocrisy?

No, if i get remembered for something it is making up a word that is spelled similarly and measn the exact same thing as another word.

ie:

Flammable: Something that burns easily.
Inflammable: Something that burns easily.

Yes, they literaly DO mean the exact same thing.

 

[S.A.M.]

Except of course, there is no word called hypocratism

 

[fedr808]

Except of course, there is no word called hypocratism

That's why I made it up.

 

[pjdude1219]

I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat.

I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy.

Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top.

The merkav 4(spelling?) really isn't that much better than the abrams plus their are far more abrams availible than merkav 4's. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.

I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west.

the problem there is the same problem in much of the former colonial world. the Western powers thought they knew better and put people over other people that had no business being in that position and throwing people together that had been at war for gods no how long.

Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to?

I really don't think that this matters. Palestine is never going to give up her rights and quite frankly the Israelis are to drunk on the the power they have over the pals to change.

We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F

Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

 

[CheskiChips]

I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy. The merkav 4(spelling?) really isn't that much better than the abrams plus their are far more abrams availible than merkav 4's. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.

the problem there is the same problem in much of the former colonial world. the Western powers thought they knew better and put people over other people that had no business being in that position and throwing people together that had been at war for gods no how long.

I really don't think that this matters. Palestine is never going to give up her rights and quite frankly the Israelis are to drunk on the the power they have over the pals to change.



Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

.

 

[WillNever]

Palestine is never going to give up her rights

Yes they will, once the older generation of Palestinians dies off and the new ones born under Israel's dominance have no justification of ever losing anything -- because they weren't even alive to have lost.

 

[pjdude1219]

Yes they will, once the older generation of Palestinians dies off and the new ones born under Israel's dominance have no justification of ever losing anything -- because they weren't even alive to have lost.

But they did lose. and the younger ones have still worked for getting their rights

 

[pjdude1219]

.

forgive me for not feeling sorry for people who willfully ignored the ramifications of their actions and ignored any semblence of moral action.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't think war with Israel is the correct response. They are paranoid enough as it is.

Secret unit to monitor "Israeli Arabs"

The police have recently started operating an undercover unit among Israeli citizens. Some two months ago, Police Commissioner David Cohen said the force had "no intelligence infrastructure to deal with the Arab community."

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.


Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

Well again the problem is which equal power would do this? What would be their incentive? What would be their reasoning? What would be the outcome? Its not that no one has the balls its that no one would be willing to spend the life and resources. You still believe that most wars are fought over what is right and wrong, this has been true on a number of occasions but untrue in most. Its safe to say that the majority of the UN security council nations are not for showing a heavy hand with Israel or at least not at this time, the political stratosphere and power dynamics would have to change dramatically for this to change.

Side note: Don't forget that Vietnam rid themselves of three world powers (china, France and US) though they were smaller and less resourceful, they were not 'equal' with those who would control them and yet they won. Why do you think they won? More than any other country in SE Asia the Vietnamese have a unity that is unequalled in the region, every man woman and child gave themselves to the effort. In the face of opposition you were not fighting a military machine you were fighting each individual in the nation. This also happens to be a strength Israeli's have long had even if they fight among themselves. I say this because you come across as seeing war as an 'easy' option and it isn't, they're unpredictable and should be the last option. Just look at Afghanistan, the US are not fighting an 'equal' enemy and yet they are having a tough time and its taking a long time and still we have no idea of what the outcome will be, these people also have a history of fighting world powers and winning.

 

[pjdude1219]

Well again the problem is which equal power would do this? What would be their incentive? What would be their reasoning? What would be the outcome?

irrelevant for my purposes. When it comes time to argue for someone to do so than you can ask these questions. Right now I am merely arguing for the moral framework.

Its not that no one has the balls its that no one would be willing to spend the life and resources.

that knida of what having the balls to do it is. Willing to pay the costs to do it.

You still believe that most wars are fought over what is right and wrong, this has been true on a number of occasions but untrue in most.

for someone who got cranky that I was making "assumptions" about their private life(I wasn't) you seem to enjoy making assumptions about my beliefs and views. I think most wars were started over wants and not liking the legit cost to gain them.

Its safe to say that the majority of the UN security council nations are not for showing a heavy hand with Israel or at least not at this time, the political stratosphere and power dynamics would have to change dramatically for this to change.

and guess what, I know that. My purposes are to create public support to change that. Contrary to your childish assumptions about me and attempts to paint me as naive,immature, and childish I know all to well the current geopolitical situtation. Things are already begining to shift in the way for my ideas to come into play. I am merely now trying to push the shift further along.

Side note: Don't forget that Vietnam rid themselves of three world powers (china, France and US) though they were smaller and less resourceful, they were not 'equal' with those who would control them and yet they won. Why do you think they won? More than any other country in SE Asia the Vietnamese have a unity that is unequalled in the region, every man woman and child gave themselves to the effort.

first off the palestinians are united in the fight for their freedom the aren't united on the sratergy to use. also vietnam has land that helps defense and they weren't handicapped in such a way that allowed their foes to have complete control over their movements. to compare palestine and vietnam is hopelessly useless and naive.

In the face of opposition you were not fighting a military machine you were fighting each individual in the nation. This also happens to be a strength Israeli's have long had even if they fight among themselves.

actually Israelis blind following seems to be slipping in recent years.

I say this because you come across as seeing war as an 'easy' option and it isn't, they're unpredictable and should be the last option.

I believe war is the last resort its messy and leads to unneeded deaths but when you have a country like Israel that has rejected every overture of peace, every olive branch, and every dove sent to them and continues to push people of their land with their military you have reached the last resort

Just look at Afghanistan, the US are not fighting an 'equal' enemy and yet they are having a tough time and its taking a long time and still we have no idea of what the outcome will be, these people also have a history of fighting world powers and winning.

Afghanistan also favors the defenders in its lands palestine doesn't.

 

[CheskiChips]

forgive me for not feeling sorry for people who willfully ignored the ramifications of their actions and ignored any semblence of moral action.

Then why don't you feel sorry for me? You've insisted I am a biggoted moron on several occassions - if I am as ignorant as you say, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[pjdude1219]

I don't think war with Israel is the correct response. They are paranoid enough as it is.

if they aren't willing to use diplomacy to try and achieve real peace i say cry havic and let slip the dogs of war.

 

[pjdude1219]

Then why don't you feel sorry for me? You've insisted I am a biggoted moron on several occassions - if I am as ignorant as you say, you should be ashamed of yourself.

i differentiate between willfull and unwillfull ignorance

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

irrelevant for my purposes. When it comes time to argue for someone to do so than you can ask these questions. Right now I am merely arguing for the moral framework. that knida of what having the balls to do it is. Willing to pay the costs to do it. for someone who got cranky that I was making "assumptions" about their private life(I wasn't) you seem to enjoy making assumptions about my beliefs and views. I think most wars were started over wants and not liking the legit cost to gain them. and guess what, I know that. My purposes are to create public support to change that. Contrary to your childish assumptions about me and attempts to paint me as naive,immature, and childish I know all to well the current geopolitical situtation. Things are already begining to shift in the way for my ideas to come into play. I am merely now trying to push the shift further along.


first off the palestinians are united in the fight for their freedom the aren't united on the sratergy to use. also vietnam has land that helps defense and they weren't handicapped in such a way that allowed their foes to have complete control over their movements. to compare palestine and vietnam is hopelessly useless and naive. actually Israelis blind following seems to be slipping in recent years. I believe war is the last resort its messy and leads to unneeded deaths but when you have a country like Israel that has rejected every overture of peace, every olive branch, and every dove sent to them and continues to push people of their land with their military you have reached the last resort Afghanistan also favors the defenders in its lands palestine doesn't.

But you don't need to argue the moral framework. You know if the UN were a democratic institution then the general assembly would have veto power over the security council decisions but it is not so they do not. Public polls show that most people WORLDWIDE believe that the palestinians have a right to a homeland.

What are the 'shifts' you speak of? Can you give me some examples of these shifts that are political and not simply a matter of public sentiment?

 

[pjdude1219]

But you don't need to argue the moral framework. You know if the UN were a democratic institution then the general assembly would have veto power over the security council decisions but it is not so they do not. Public polls show that most people WORLDWIDE believe that the palestinians have a right to a homeland.

What are the 'shifts' you speak of? Can you give me some examples of these shifts that are political and not simply a matter of public sentiment?

Europe is begining to actually put political pressure on Israel. The UK(one of those responsible for the palestinians plight) has begun to cut back on their pro Israel positions and reduce aid.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

if they aren't willing to use diplomacy to try and achieve real peace i say cry havic and let slip the dogs of war.

Its statements like that which make you come across as 'naive', wise men don't talk about warfare as if it were a line from a Die Hard movie. Have you ever thought of going to Gaza and joining the resistance movement? Or maybe the US military?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Europe is begining to actually put political pressure on Israel. The UK(one of those responsible for the palestinians plight) has begun to cut back on their pro Israel positions and reduce aid.

Well Europe has always been more pro-palestinian than the US so that isn't anything new. Israel doesn't need UK support it needs US support. What the UK has done by refusing to sell what turns out to be 'spare parts' is a public gesture that has little impact on Israeli capabilities. If the UK really wanted to hurt Israel they would turn on the US in the security council. This gesture that they have made can easily be overturned without even the public having any idea it has happened.

 

[pjdude1219]

Well Europe has always been more pro-palestinian than the US so that isn't anything new. Israel doesn't need UK support it needs US support. What the UK has done by refusing to sell what turns out to be 'spare parts' is a public gesture that has little impact on Israeli capabilities. If the UK really wanted to hurt Israel they would turn on the US in the security council. This gesture that they have made can easily be overturned without even the public having any idea it has happened.

The Us miltiary aid isn't Israel most important. You could argue germany's is(L44 120mm smoothbore cannon is the primary armament of Israeli tanks). we are just in the begining of the swing. it will become more pronouced as time goes by

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The Us miltiary aid isn't Israel most important. You could argue germany's is(L44 120mm smoothbore cannon is the primary armament of Israeli tanks). we are just in the begining of the swing. it will become more pronouced as time goes by

The post didn't make any sense to me, particularly this part 'The US military aid isn't Israel most important'. Could you please re-phrase? You will need to show more for your case that there is a 'swing' that is indeed new and not merely a meaningless 'gesture'.