Israel & Palestine

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pjdude1219 said:
Workable workable its the same old shit code for leting Israel keep what it gained from violating the law. Fuck workable I want legal.



and of course the UN and the USA aren't doing anything because we have people like you going they aren't doing anything so we shouldn't try and get them to. Civil rights state side didn't happen because the government just decided to it took people standing up and demanding they do something.
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First of all don't assume to know what I do or do not do in my private life, if you don't like people making assumptions about you then you should refrain from making them about others. So how do you get 'legal' PJ? What is the solution? But we are not talking about the civil rights movement in the states or where ever. The people of Myanmar have been actively fighting for their civil rights for years now to no avail, we are talking about state institutions. How do you fight a power state?
 
Lucysnow said:
Where do I say we should 'throw it out the window'?
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If your not demanding it being enforced your throwing it out the window.
I'm talking about political reality not wishful thinking.
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Your talking about giving into apathy. Your talking about not trying because its hard or not likely. Your talking about giving into the evil and letting them control the debate.
When the international community is able to change human rights situation in Myanmar or Tibet or Congo or Sudan let me know and then maybe there will be a plan for Israel and the Palestinians.
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the problem with all of those is the same and the same thing I am railing against you. No one wants to pay the real costs to fix it.

What do you suggest PJ?
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go in there and drag those bastards before the ICC.
What are you doing outside of 'talk' to aid progress in the situation in the middle-east?
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I send weekly letter to congress and i have sent letters to the UN.
 
Whom do you demand it from?

I am not talking about apathy I am talking about a discussion that deals with the stale mate reality and power brokerage that has taken place on this issue.

Who will pay the 'real' costs for Myanmar? The neighboring countries? The US? How? Sanctions that are ineffective? A bombing campaign that would de-stabilize the country and the region? What?

Who is going to drag those bastards before the ICC? They couldn't 'drag' the leader of Sudan into the ICC so how will they do so with a nation that has the worlds 4th largest military power?

Letters are good. I think you should keep writing letters but you should take it one step further and get active. Join a grass-roots organization that is actively working on this issue.
 
Lucysnow said:
First of all don't assume to know what I do or do not do in my private life, if you don't like people making assumptions about you then you should refrain from making them about others.
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I'm making no assumptions I'm just going off what your saying right here
So how do you get 'legal' PJ?
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you put the boots on the ground to enforce the law
What is the solution?
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anything from political ostrazization to war. it depends.
But we are not talking about the civil rights movement in the states or where ever.
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It's called an analogy
The people of Myanmar have been actively fighting for their civil rights for years now to no avail, we are talking about state institutions. How do you fight a power state?
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patience. considering most cases in south east asia and east asia the historical fights for independence went on for hundreds of years before success. Yes they need more international support but they are going at it the right way. These things rarely get resolved quickly.
 
WHO will put the boots on the ground and enforce the law? The US has no incentive to do it and the UN cannot. So who is left to do it? Israel was already attacked by their neighbors when they didn't even have half the strength they have now and won. So who will do this?

Politically ostracizing Israel doesn't mean much when they have wealth, strength and power. War? Well again I ask you who will wage war on Israel if the US will not. What would the outcome of a war against the worlds 4th largest military machine look like? What would be the outcome? Are you sure of what the cost will be if there is a military solution? Do you really believe there would be any palestinians left to inherit the land if there was a full on military solution?

No they don't get resolved quickly. So why do you expect the situation in the middle east to be solved quickly, seeing that it is only 50 years old?

I have to go now but will check in tomorrow.
 
pjdude1219 said:
being tan doesn't make someone brown. they are dark white people.



I believe that as much as i believe everything else you have ranted. Your an extremist with an axe to grind.
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So you oppose the Jews' presence in Israel based on their skin color...?

*aghast*
 
WillNever said:
So you oppose the Jews' presence in Israel based on their skin color...?

*aghast*
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I don't oppose their presence in palestine at all. I oppose a jewish state founded on the disenfranchisement and disspossion of the resident population
 
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Meh,

I figure Israel and Palestine to be yin and yang, they both know that no matter how hard they push the other will push just as hard, that's why they are both apealing to the UN.

The big mistake their making is the idea that the UN isnt in a similar state.
 
pjdude1219 said:
I don't oppose their presence in palestine at all. I oppose a jewish state founded on the disenfranchisement and disspossion of the resident population
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The people of Israel have made power politics the religion of that state, and they have made themselves the gods of that religion.

Wouldn't it just be easier for the Palestinians to simply bow down before their white gods, at this point..?
 
WillNever said:
The people of Israel have made power politics the religion of that state, and they have made themselves the gods of that religion.

Wouldn't it just be easier for the Palestinians to simply bow down before their white gods, at this point..?
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:confused:
 
Musichascolors said:
So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.
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Just use the numbers to cut down on the rhetoric

e.g.

hasbara #3

or if you must

3. You suck

Reference: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2383751&postcount=74

Or stop to think a bit and apply this logic:

Musichascolors said:
So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.
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to South African Jews saying that Jewish teenagers who oppose the killing and dehumanisation and occupation of Palestinians will cause antisemitism.
 
Musichascolors said:
So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.
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music, the first and most important lesson you need to learn and sadly enough took me 1800 posts to finally figure out is that nobody in sciforums is such a bigot to the point of Rascism.

Calling SAM a bigot is as true as calling someone a conservative vs liberal, or democrat vs. Republican, in such a respect most people are a bigot in some sort of fashion.

I used to be Bigoted extremely towards the Jewish support and now when I post I consider myself if not at the middle, that much closer to being in the middle because I consider what I am saying and how it will be reacted to by the opposite person.

Music, anyone whom is bigoted to the point of rascism has been banned, SAM over what? 60k posts is still here, so it is a fair assumption she is not rascist.
 
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Lucysnow said:
WHO will put the boots on the ground and enforce the law? The US has no incentive to do it and the UN cannot. So who is left to do it? Israel was already attacked by their neighbors when they didn't even have half the strength they have now and won. So who will do this?

Politically ostracizing Israel doesn't mean much when they have wealth, strength and power. War? Well again I ask you who will wage war on Israel if the US will not. What would the outcome of a war against the worlds 4th largest military machine look like? What would be the outcome? Are you sure of what the cost will be if there is a military solution? Do you really believe there would be any palestinians left to inherit the land if there was a full on military solution?

No they don't get resolved quickly. So why do you expect the situation in the middle east to be solved quickly, seeing that it is only 50 years old?

I have to go now but will check in tomorrow.
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I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat. Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top.

I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west.

Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to?

We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F
 
fedr808 said:
I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat. Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top.

I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west.

Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to?

We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F
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Indeed. Welcome to universalism. :)
 
fedr808 said:
I call it hypocratism
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Even when a rabbi says it? :p

That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn

— Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle"

PS I assume you mean hypocrisy? ;)
 
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