Musichascolors
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Israel & Palestine
- Thread starter hypewaders
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wouldn't have been bombed had they just complied with international law. The Israelis bitching about terrorism is like someone bitching after being mauled by a grizzly after beating it for an hour.
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The just and fair solution is simple but no one will go for it because most people seem to believe fair is treating the powerful better than the weak rather than following the law. Allow all palestinians who want to return to their land to do so and remove the Israelis who were allowed to settle there. Slowly turn the land over to palestinian governence while adding jewish voices into it. Have the countries responsible for the debacle pay for the modernization of infrastructure to get everything up to par. Give the palestinians who do not wish to return compensation equal to the current value of the land while doing the same for the decendents of the jewish refugees while acknowledging the jewish refugee problem was created in response to the palestinian. demilitartize the country and remove weapons from it and have a peace keeping force(probably filled with forces from europe and the far east for best results) for a period of time to let the people mesh into one palestinian people.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
You're getting caught up in a strawman argument. What difference does it make what 'race' we consider Israeli's? I mean if you point out to Sam of PJ that there are black Israeli jews would it make a difference to them? Would it make a difference that they also serve in the IDF at checkpoints etc.? The question is of land distribution, human rights and a certain tribalism on both sides but none of this has anything to do with 'color'. Its not south africa.
No he is making one.
So your attaicking me and Sam for something he brought up?
It makes a big deifference to me that they would help abuse people.
true and yet here you are defending the person who tried to make it about color and attacking those that didn't.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
For Pete's sake PJ stop being so emotional. I am not 'attacking' anyone of anything. I simply stated that to get caught up in questions of race concerning Israelis is pointless as it doesn't change the dynamics one bit. The fact that someone with power is black or white is irrelevant when you are the one who feels somehow disenfranchised. I don't think he was making it about 'color' I think he is responding to the notion that Israel is an exclusively 'white' society which it is not, note he does admit that it is 'western' and western influenced but this also is besides the point. The problem with these discussions is that everyone takes the red herring road and the issue is never addressed but then again I doubt this is really a place for addressing these points as it always reaches a point of futility. Think of the black and white way its being discussed when there are so many grey's, well anyway in reality there is always much grey.
Now you can put back on your little boxing gloves and get back into your corner
Now you can put back on your little boxing gloves and get back into your corner
than don't make bullshit implications about me
whatever you say
which is why you implied me and sam made it an issue
except no one thinks that we think its a mostly white society like the states.
Now you can put back on your little boxing gloves and get back into your corner
don't want to get hit don't start swinging.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
You all seem to back yourself into a corner when discussing this issue.
Make bullshit implications about you? Stop being a cry baby as its no way to confront a crisis never mind discuss one. You're so defensive on this issue you don't know who's attacking you and who is simply making a point.
Make bullshit implications about you? Stop being a cry baby as its no way to confront a crisis never mind discuss one. You're so defensive on this issue you don't know who's attacking you and who is simply making a point.
this is not making a point. its not true and implying a mindless hatred which i do not have. also you don't have a point. Your defending an extremist with an axe to grind. I'm sorry you have a problem with my reaction but i am tired of having my position on this topic misrepresented.
I am not being a crybaby. I am merely asking you to not make untrue implications and pointing out your defense/comment of musichascolors was ridiculus.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
First of all I would love for you to go back and find where I accuse you of 'blind hatred', second I did make a point not that it was directed at you. I don't know much about musichascolors but I doubt he is any more extreme than you are on this topic. In other words you both in a sense play from end-corners so the discussion never goes anywhere...much like the Israeli-palestinian situation.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Hello Hype,
Here are some download publications from Chathamhouse.org on this issue (not that I think anyone will actually take the time to read them):
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/631/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/703/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/632/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/739/
Mod Note: Thanks Lucy. Excellent background & required reading, with a Test: As posts become noticeably better-informed, we'll know who among us have taken the time to get up to speed. -hype
Here are some download publications from Chathamhouse.org on this issue (not that I think anyone will actually take the time to read them):
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/631/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/703/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/632/
http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/739/
Mod Note: Thanks Lucy. Excellent background & required reading, with a Test: As posts become noticeably better-informed, we'll know who among us have taken the time to get up to speed. -hype
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i said it was implied.
Sorry you don't get to talk about others and not have them reply. and i have yet to see a point other than music was getting involved with me and sam on a strwman with the implication that we were making an argument we weren't.
really because I don't have half my post equal trolling/flaming simply because someone had the aducity to disagree with me.
I'm willing to move on aspects if my beliefs. But on the matter of legal rights I won't budge.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Implied? The pot you smoke is too strong, I suggest you cut back as you have turned into a paranoid. You are so far off in whatever it is you 'think' is happening in this thread that you don't even know what the discussion is anymore, hell you don't even know who's on your side Just keep punching at air PJ as Lachlan once famously said "Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."
You speak of 'legal rights' but where there is no one to enforce them then there are no rights, its not a nice fact but its a fact nonetheless. We all know what is legal and illegal based on international law but in this situation among others there is no one to enforce these rights so its a mute point really to speak of them except as a reminder that they exist in 'theory', at this point one must talk about what is do-able and not what should be or is supposed to be. When I say you back yourself into a corner I mean your perspective is stuck on one side, just like the other is stuck on theirs, from both places the only thing you can accomplish is a proper fight but not insight nor a widening perspective nor problem solving and solution building. Its all hot air.
Just keep punching at air PJ as Lachlan once famously said "Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."You speak of 'legal rights' but where there is no one to enforce them then there are no rights, its not a nice fact but its a fact nonetheless. We all know what is legal and illegal based on international law but in this situation among others there is no one to enforce these rights so its a mute point really to speak of them except as a reminder that they exist in 'theory', at this point one must talk about what is do-able and not what should be or is supposed to be. When I say you back yourself into a corner I mean your perspective is stuck on one side, just like the other is stuck on theirs, from both places the only thing you can accomplish is a proper fight but not insight nor a widening perspective nor problem solving and solution building. Its all hot air.
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How to recognise a pro-Israeli/pro-Zionist or Standard Hasbara Talking Points
The following propositions will be employed in a steadily escalating manner:
1. We rock
examples: Israel want peace; Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East; the desert blooms; kibutz; Israelis invented antibiotics, the wheel, the E minor scale; thanks to the occupation Palestinians no longer live in caves; Israel liberates Arab women; Israel has the most moral army in the world, etc.
2. They suck
examples: the legal system of Saudi Arabia, gay rights in Iran, slave trade in the Sudan, Mohammad Atta, the burqa, Palestinians dancing after 9/11, Arafat's facial hair, etc.
3. You suck
examples:Jew-hater, Arab-lover, anti-Semite, you're a pinko, a commie, a dreamer, a naive, a self-hater, you have issues, your mother worked for the Nazis, Prince Bandar buys you cookies, you forgot you were responsible for the holocaust, etc.
4. Everything sucks
examples: War, genocide, racism, oppression are everywhere. From the Roma in Italy to the Native-Americans in the U.S., the weak are victimized. Why pick on Israel? It's the way of the world. Look! Right is only in question between equals in power; the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Ethics, schmethics. Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Eat, drink! Carpe diem! The Palestinians would throw us into the sea if they could. Ha ha!
source
More gibberish from the clueless:
The truth is antisemitic
The following propositions will be employed in a steadily escalating manner:
1. We rock
examples: Israel want peace; Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East; the desert blooms; kibutz; Israelis invented antibiotics, the wheel, the E minor scale; thanks to the occupation Palestinians no longer live in caves; Israel liberates Arab women; Israel has the most moral army in the world, etc.
2. They suck
examples: the legal system of Saudi Arabia, gay rights in Iran, slave trade in the Sudan, Mohammad Atta, the burqa, Palestinians dancing after 9/11, Arafat's facial hair, etc.
3. You suck
examples:Jew-hater, Arab-lover, anti-Semite, you're a pinko, a commie, a dreamer, a naive, a self-hater, you have issues, your mother worked for the Nazis, Prince Bandar buys you cookies, you forgot you were responsible for the holocaust, etc.
4. Everything sucks
examples: War, genocide, racism, oppression are everywhere. From the Roma in Italy to the Native-Americans in the U.S., the weak are victimized. Why pick on Israel? It's the way of the world. Look! Right is only in question between equals in power; the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Ethics, schmethics. Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Eat, drink! Carpe diem! The Palestinians would throw us into the sea if they could. Ha ha!
source
More gibberish from the clueless:
The truth is antisemitic
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
The 'truth' is 'antisemitic'? Interesting choice of words Sam. A very revealing perspective.
Welcome to the never get anywhere discussion.
now I get your just trying to cover your ass for arguing against doing the right thing. Their are people who can enforce these rights and the law the meerly need to show the spine to stand up for them. Cowardice isn't the answer. Instead of whining that no one is enforce rights, which by the way aren't theory, why don't you argue that those than have the power and obligation to should enforce them. Just because the right thing is difficult doesn't mean you don't do it.Implied? The pot you smoke is too strong, I suggest you cut back as you have turned into a paranoid. You are so far off in whatever it is you 'think' is happening in this thread that you don't even know what the discussion is anymore, hell you don't even know who's on your side
You speak of 'legal rights' but where there is no one to enforce them then there are no rights, its not a nice fact but its a fact nonetheless. We all know what is legal and illegal based on international law but in this situation among others there is no one to enforce these rights so its a mute point really to speak of them except as a reminder that they exist in 'theory', at this point one must talk about what is do-able and not what should be or is supposed to be. When I say you back yourself into a corner I mean your perspective is stuck on one side, just like the other is stuck on theirs, from both places the only thing you can accomplish is a proper fight but not insight nor a widening perspective nor problem solving and solution building. Its all hot air.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Wrong again. I didn't 'argue' against anything. I simply pointed out that race isn't a factor in this issue unless you want to take the train off the tracks. Talk of 'doing the right thing' is not the same thing as implementing a decent workable solution, the UN and activists both jewish and palestinian, american or not are always 'talking' about doing the right thing, unfortunately implementing a plan is more difficult than 'talk' and there are many obstacles in the way one of them being the way we discuss the situation to begin with.
So who is it that you think is going to enforce these rights? Which nation or which institution? We know the Americans won't do it and we know the UN cannot do it. So who is going to do it?
Did you read ANY of those downloads I linked?
By the way I don't need to 'cover tracks'. If I didn't think the Palestinians weren't in deep shit and Israeli's the heros I would simply say so, the problem is that the reality is complex without a 'black and white' solution though I understand that black and white thinking is useful as you then don't have to deal with the complex reality of solution building.
there is no getting anywhere when people like you just go we should throw the legit framework out the window because its hard to enforceThe 'truth' is 'antisemitic'? Interesting choice of words Sam. A very revealing perspective.
Welcome to the never get anywhere discussion.
Workable workable its the same old shit code for leting Israel keep what it gained from violating the law. Fuck workable I want legal.
and of course the UN and the USA aren't doing anything because we have people like you going they aren't doing anything so we shouldn't try and get them to. Civil rights state side didn't happen because the government just decided to it took people standing up and demanding they do something.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Where do I say we should 'throw it out the window'? I'm talking about political reality not wishful thinking. The 'rules' and 'standards' are there. When the international community is able to change human rights situation in Myanmar or Tibet or Congo or Sudan let me know and then maybe there will be a plan for Israel and the Palestinians.
What do you suggest PJ? What are you doing outside of 'talk' to aid progress in the situation in the middle-east?
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