Islamist Violence: Blame the Muslim, Islam or Both?

[DoctorNO]

From http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=572532#post572532

Originally Posted by Proud_Muslim
When a jew or a christian or any non muslim commits a crime, he goes on trail but when a muslim commits a crime, it is Islam which goes on trail !!

I agree with you here PM. I was talking to my class about this very issue last week. Most in my class had been unable to make the connection but once I started to tell them of the news stories of the last few years, they too realised that it was in fact the case.

What you two dont realize until now is that there are a lot more (way way more) muslims committing atrocities in the name of allah, than there are christians in the name of jesus, or of jews in the name of Yahweh, or of hindus in the name of Brahmin, or of whatever.


Look at this and wonder why no other poses as such.

Is that person purely to blame, or does his belief play a role?

Those violent extremists are just a fraction but they permeate the islamic world like holes on a sponge. Extremists everywhere even in china. Islamists are the only known terrorists in china.

For Islamist Violence I blame both Islam and the Muslim. :m:

 

[DoctorNO]

Remember the following:

* We are talking about current events
* Christianity, Judaism & Hinduism are changing religions. See if you can find similar examples in the last 50 years.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

When someones actions are a product of being brainwashed by a cultish religion then you blame the religion, blame the person for being so easily brainwashed.

Islam takes hold of its followers more so than other religions. At least today. At one stage christian culture encouraged violence against non-christians, now it doesn't. Christianity has loosened its grip substantially to the point where many of the people within christian cultures aren't even christians, they are athiests, buddhists whatever.
People in christian societies are largely individuals. Christianity isn't a real force anymore by any stretch off the imagination so there is nothing to blame. People in islamic societies are largely brainwashed zombies, their actions were done on behalf of the entity that is islam (not refferring to qu-ran's teachings or anything like that), they will openly admit this fact.
When a so called christian does something christianity isn't blamed because chances are it had nothing to do with christianity or christian society. Christianity is to blame for liberals and political correctness (not that those offenses should be sneazed at).
When a muslim kills people while screaming allah is great its obvious he's not a person but a mindless piece of the islamic entity. That is why islam is blamed.

 

[Bells]

What you two dont realize until now is that there are a lot more (way way more) muslims committing atrocities in the name of allah, than there are christians in the name of jesus, or of jews in the name of Yahweh, or of hindus in the name of Brahmin, or of whatever.

Yes, but how often do you hear of the violence caused by Christians in the Spice Islands of Indonesia or by Christians and Hindus in India (where there are constant killings between Hindus and Christians) for example? The violence is there and just as vile, but it's rarely reported. The media in the West floods the news with so called Muslim violence, but any other violence rarely gets a mention. But dig a little bit and the reports are there and the atrocities just as bad. There are more crimes committed by Muslims because those crimes get a better write up. Look at the past 20 years alone and see the amount of cases where Christian based Governments committed genocide against ethnic Muslims (as a quick example look at Kosovo) and think back to the world's reaction to these crimes. They took a hell of a long time to intervene.

When those idiots flew those planes into the WTC, were they doing it for all Muslims or Islam in general? Or were they following the orders of a deranged individual who had his own personal agenda and vendetta to fulfil? Many Muslims died in those buildings on that day, and the majority of them were not on those planes, but normal, ordinary citizens living their lives. Were those pilots screaming out Allah is great speaking for those people? One wouldn't think so. Would those Muslims working in the WTC have wanted to die for the cause of OBL? Most probably not. Would they have agreed to give their lives to further the Muslim cause because OBL stated they should. Again the answer is probably no. People who commit such actions don't represent their religions. They only represent themselves and their own interests.

Is that person purely to blame, or does his belief play a role?

I have a hypothetical for you DoctorNO. Say a person is a Christian and is a great believer in God and all the rest of it. Say that person takes a gun and mows down 50 people because his car was repossessed and he couldn't get to church each week, and all the while he is shooting, he is screaming out 'I love my God'. Does that person represent all of Christianity? Does his belief play a role in that crime? Or would you blame that individual?

Those violent extremists are just a fraction but they permeate the islamic world like holes on a sponge. Extremists everywhere even in china. Islamists are the only known terrorists in china.

Ah but that's the thing. Extremism and fundamentalism such as the world has seen in some of the believers of Allah does not exist only in Islam. The US has been witness to Christian extremist and fundamentalist to an extent where people are killed. For example, look at the weiners who blow up abortion clinics, or the idiots who stockpile weapons because they think that God is telling them that the Government is the devil and therefore they should prepare for the final battle (ie Koresh), and the sad thing is Koresh is not the only one doing this. The idiots who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma were also members of fundamental Christian groups. In India, the Hindus who burnt a Christian missionary and his two sons in their car were also classified as belonging to a fundamentalist group. If someone is weak of mind, then fundamentalists pray on those weak minds and in the end, the weak individual will listen to and believe anything they are told.

For Islamist Violence I blame both Islam and the Muslim.

So if any Muslim commits a crime it's classified as Islamist violence? So following your argument, a Christian who commits a crime is guilty of Christian violence? Do you blame Christianity and the Christians for, as an example, the abortion clinic bombings or the crimes committed by the KKK, who are known to pray before they go out and commit their crimes?

Maybe it's time that the world started to look at the individual committing the crimes, instead of their religion.

 

[DoctorNO]

“ Originally Posted by DoctorNO
What you two dont realize until now is that there are a lot more (way way more) muslims committing atrocities in the name of allah, than there are christians in the name of jesus, or of jews in the name of Yahweh, or of hindus in the name of Brahmin, or of whatever. ”
Yes, but how often do you hear of the violence caused by Christians in the Spice Islands of Indonesia or by Christians and Hindus in India (where there are constant killings between Hindus and Christians) for example?

As often as I hear of the violence caused by Muslims in the Spice Islands of Indonesia or by Muslims in a specific location in India.

You know what this means? It means we tend to see the more numerous individual instances belonging to one group. Like in China, they only see Islamist terror there because muslims are the only ones causing trouble.

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1013806.htm

 

[Bells]

As often as I hear of the violence caused by Muslims in the Spice Islands of Indonesia or by Muslims in a specific location in India.

But it's not always caused by Muslims though. It's become a tit for tat fight where retaliations from both sides abound.

You know what this means? It means we tend to see the more numerous individual instances belonging to one group. Like in China, they only see Islamist terror there because muslims are the only ones causing trouble.

LOL, you're using China as an example? You are aware that China literally forbids pretty much all religions right? Even Falun Gong and Zhong Gong are classified as being terrorist groups in China. Any actions by these groups are seen as being terrorism as a result.

Muslims are not the only ones causing the troubles or the problems DoctorNO. Surely you have enough intelligence to see that.

 

[DoctorNO]

When those idiots flew those planes into the WTC, were they doing it for all Muslims or Islam in general? Or were they following the orders of a deranged individual who had his own personal agenda and vendetta to fulfil? Many Muslims died in those buildings on that day, and the majority of them were not on those planes, but normal, ordinary citizens living their lives. Were those pilots screaming out Allah is great speaking for those people? One wouldn't think so. Would those Muslims working in the WTC have wanted to die for the cause of OBL? Most probably not. Would they have agreed to give their lives to further the Muslim cause because OBL stated they should. Again the answer is probably no. People who commit such actions don't represent their religions. They only represent themselves and their own interests.

I never said that these individual terrorists represents islam. No Im only saying that Islam was partly the reason why these people did what they did.

I have a hypothetical for you DoctorNO. Say a person is a Christian and is a great believer in God and all the rest of it. Say that person takes a gun and mows down 50 people because his car was repossessed and he couldn't get to church each week, and all the while he is shooting, he is screaming out 'I love my God'. Does that person represent all of Christianity? Does his belief play a role in that crime? Or would you blame that individual?

Assuming that he wasn’t saying that in mockery. In that scenario the question is No and then Yes. No he doesn’t represent Christianity and yes his belief was obviously playing a role.

Ah but that's the thing. Extremism and fundamentalism such as the world has seen in some of the believers of Allah does not exist only in Islam.

But…“only in Islam is fundamentalism mainstream” – Irshad Manji (a muslim)

The US has been witness to Christian extremist and fundamentalist to an extent where people are killed. For example, look at the weiners who blow up abortion clinics

The idiots who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma were also members of fundamental Christian groups.

Were any of those committed in the name of religion? Or for pure ethics and politics?

, or the idiots who stockpile weapons because they think that God is telling them that the Government is the devil and therefore they should prepare for the final battle (ie Koresh), and the sad thing is Koresh is not the only one doing this.

The Branch Davidians did not initiate any violence. They fought because the agents attacked them.

In India, the Hindus who burnt a Christian missionary and his two sons in their car were also classified as belonging to a fundamentalist group. If someone is weak of mind, then fundamentalists pray on those weak minds and in the end, the weak individual will listen to and believe anything they are told.

A very isolated case. But probably religious violence nonetheless.

So if any Muslim commits a crime it's classified as Islamist violence?

Only if religion played a part. Like the DC Sniper. That doesn’t classify as religious violence even though the perpetrators were muslims.

So following your argument, a Christian who commits a crime is guilty of Christian violence? Do you blame Christianity and the Christians for, as an example, the abortion clinic bombings or the crimes committed by the KKK, who are known to pray before they go out and commit their crimes?

The KKK yes, I partly blame Christianity for that. The abortion clinic no, because it wasn’t for religion.

 

[DoctorNO]

But it's not always caused by Muslims though. It's become a tit for tat fight where retaliations from both sides abound.

Of course. I was just pointing out the frequency of media report of one particular incident. We hear more of muslims because these people are involved in many "particular incidences".

LOL, you're using China as an example? You are aware that China literally forbids pretty much all religions right? Even Falun Gong and Zhong Gong are classified as being terrorist groups in China. Any actions by these groups are seen as being terrorism as a result.

I think you are mistaken. The link I gave you was of Dec 19, 2003. And according to that news report the Terrorist List consists ENTIRELY of muslim extremists. 100%, bells. China was against Falun Gong because they accuse it of being a political movement that is potentially threatening to the communist government.

Muslims are not the only ones causing the troubles or the problems DoctorNO. Surely you have enough intelligence to see that.

Yes they are not. They only have the monopoly on it.

 

[Bells]

Were any of those committed in the name of religion? Or for pure ethics and politics?

But what is terrorism though? You have OBL ranting that America needs to be destroyed because of its capitalist and greedy ideals. The majority of terrorist attacks are mostly motivated by politics. As an example, look at the terrorist attacks on the past in Ireland, it's all politics. The WTC was targetted because it represented the capitalist ideal of the West and of the US. If the terrorist attacks on 9/11 were to represent a religious ideal, the Vatican would have been the target. In the end however, the world saw that Muslims committed the acts and instantly the battle lines were drawn between Christians and Muslims and terrorism became a religious battle. But look at any motivating factor for most terror attacks and the end result will be politics.

The KKK yes, I partly blame Christianity for that.

But you don't view all Christians as having the same beliefs as the KKK though do you? The KKK only represent themselves, like OBL only represents himself and just as much as any other terrorist only represents himself/herself. They do not speak for the majority of the people who happen to belong to the same religion as they do.

 

[Bells]

I think you are mistaken. The link I gave you was of Dec 19, 2003. And according to that news report the Terrorist List consists ENTIRELY of muslim extremists. 100%, bells. China was against Falun Gong because they accuse it of being a political movement that is potentially threatening to the communist government.

Ermmm Falun Gong was classified as a terrorist group since 2001 and that classification has not changed since then.

Even Tibetian Monks are classified as terrorists in China.

http://www.vermontindymedia.org/newswire/display/1936/index.php

 

[DoctorNO]

Ermmm Falun Gong was classified as a terrorist group since 2001 and that classification has not changed since then.

Even Tibetian Monks are classified as terrorists in China.

http://www.vermontindymedia.org/newswire/display/1936/index.php

Oh my golly siopao, you pointed out a very stupid mistake on my part.

Yeah there have been other terrorists in china. But its very first Terrorist Wanted List only contains the names of muslims.