Islamic Theologian's Theory

M

Michael

歌舞伎
Valued Senior Member
Islamic Theologian's Theory: It's Likely the Prophet Muhammad Never Existed

And there you go: a devout Muslim sets out to learn about the Historical Mohammad. He decides to apply the same academic processes of investigation to Mohammad and the Qur'an (in which he devoutly believes) that have been applied to Mosses and the Torah, the Jesus and The Bible as well as Hercules and the Aeneid. What does he find? He finds, much like Mosses, Jesus and Hercules - that Mohammad is a fictional protagonist set in mythical landscape for which there is zero contemporary evidence he ever existed.

Interesting, he's still a Muslim. Although that seems to be a problem with some fundamental conservative Muslims who have threatened to cut off his head.

I call it a sign of the times. Expect more of the same in the coming years :)


Big Shock there people!
:)
Michael


On a side note: I may be altering my view of the Arab invasion of Byzantine. It may be this didn't happen. The whole "We beat the Romans" may have actually been: Arabs, who routinely raided lands of the Byzantine Empire, suddenly found that they could just stay and settle down in the land of the fertile crescent as there were no military troupes left (which had been undergoing a process of withdrawal for around 100 years). Finding themselves kings of a new land they creatively create their own form of Judal/Christian literature with a blend of their own myths. That's what people around there normally did anyway - take Noah and Epic of Gilgamesh for example.
 
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I think I'll wait for the archaeologists conclusions [still waiting for that one, Michael tic toc tic toc].

But such notions are not strange in Islamic philosophy. You may also be interested in the Caliph who declared in the 7th or 8th century that the Quran is not divine. Like rabbis who teach there may be no God in Judaism, Islamic philosophy is a very vast very flexible body of work, with lots of interesting opinions.

If I'd started earlier, I might have studied it comprehensively.
 
Why would you think and archeologist could solve the issue? Were mohammed's bones labeled?
 
Its not me who thinks an archaeologist could solve the problem. I'm still waiting for a source to their claim that there is no contemporary evidence of Mohammed
 
S.A.M. said:
Its not me who thinks an archaeologist could solve the problem. I'm still waiting for a source to their claim that there is no contemporary evidence of Mohammed
Click to expand...
I'm still waiting on the contemporary evidence. Apparently scifes say's he's seen and touched the bones of the Prophet .. Haa! I didn't know KSA was doing Catholic styled tourism. Those crafty Saudies. They do know how to turn a buck :)


That aside. I got to thinking about Aisha's story. Why was it written. If we assume that she didn't exist, why would she be important to the early creators of the literature? She led an army. She was young when she consummated her marriage. Now, I'm going to assume the age of 9 was chosen to prove that "her" descendants were Mohammad's (which while shouldn't matter squat of course does). I've hashed that prior and I feel it's a good case for the age. But, why the story of a leader in a war? How does that fit into the early picture? I'm assuming it must refer to a war of succession. I mean, that much I'd guess. But whose? Who created her story and why did they do so?
 
china is a lie..i applied the "academic process of investigation" and found it didn't exist.

now i should wait for some nut on the internet to cherry pick my sign of times from the rest of what the rest of the world's populace says, to "prove" that china doesn't exist to his fellow chinese.

i just hope the chinese don't cut off my head. as i myself still am chinese, despite there's no china.
 
Ja'far at-Tahir said:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/letters.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB5R1a4bSUM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17575789/The-Letters-Prophet-Muhammad
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Ja'far, you posted a kid taking a verbal crap on Youtube as your "evidence"!?!? You have got to be joking. Seriously, you have got to joking. :bugeye:

Look, I took the time to read the links you posted, the letter to the Emperor Heraculus is interesting and I'd like to know it's history. Where it was found. Who found it. I mean, you don't find it odd a letter was sent to an Emperor and this survived but not any of the original Qur'an? Then there's the whole story about how that Emperor was just about to murder off some Jews when suddenly out of the blue pops this letter from Mohammad :p (That is the true story). Oh, it gets better. Then the Christian Emperor, recognizing that Mohammad is a True Prophet of God (from this letter) holds stay his hand and doesn't kill the Jews.
All very magical and mythical.
You may not know it but some early Muslims viewed Emperor Heraculus as a great and just leader and a Prophet of God himself. But Emperor Heraculus endorsing Mohammad as a Prophet this (through the fallacy of authority) lends credibility to Mohammad's Prophethood. This all fits very well with the idea of early Arabs being Christians who disagreed with the idea of a Trinity and then slowly developing into their own religion.

Unfortunately I don't see a paper published with history of the document, which archeological team found it, when it was found, as well as the chemical analysis of the ink and skin. It seems one scholar (from your link) said it was from the 1st century which would make it older than any Modern Qur'an, but perhaps not as old as the Sana'a manuscripts. I'm of the feeling it's an early fake. It's just not likely that some letter from a no-body would ever be delivered and read to the Emperor. You'd have better luck writing a personal letter to President Obama, having him read it, and then that making such a profound impact on him that he pulled all US troups out of Iraq.

Look, I'm more than happy to entertain the idea there existed a contemporary figure who was the person the literary character "Mohammad The Prophet" was based on. I've yet to see good evidence of such. Heck, I've yet to see good contemporary evidence Mohammad wasn't a heretical Christian Patriarch. Considering >80 of the Qur'an is the Bible, it seems more reasonable. Also, if we assume Mohammad wasn't a liar. Then it seems even more likely. And of course the people who "Succeeded" him and made themselves Emperors/Caliphs did a little Historical Revision justifying their own claim to Divine Rule. That's the usual way things ago. I see no reason to think it any different in this case.

Instead of trolling for YouTube, and concidering your a Muslim, why don't you do what the Qur'an says to do and actually study the argument from the other side? I mean, the Qur'an is telling you to go out and take a unbiased review of the literature.

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Koran-Classic-Essays-Islams/dp/157392198X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c"]
[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Quest-Historical-Muhammad-Ibn-Warraq/dp/1573927872/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278384225&sr=1-1"]The Origins of the Koran

[/URL]
The Quest for the Historical Muhammad[/URL]
The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History

The last book is based on decades of work on the Sana'a manuscripts (literally the oldest versions of the Qur'an).


Look, I don't expect you CAN change your POV. It'd be like changing your language. Simply not physically very easy.


Since we're on the subject.
Do you know the day the Qur'an was finished? No? You don't? Geee..... this is the most important document in the History of Humanity and no one recorded the day it was Perfectly completely?!?!? OK then, how about the Month is was completed? No again!!?!? I'm shocked! You don't even know the month the Qur'an was finished? huh? That's very odd..... :bugeye: Well, surely you'd know the exact year. NO AGAIN!!! That is totally shocking to me (well not really, all mythical books are the same actually).


So, I didn't see if you said Allah could learn something new? Can "He"?
 
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Didn't we just have one of these scholarly informative types of missionary on this forum arguing that Muhammed's well established illiteracy was evidence of the divinity and perfection of the Quran?

Something about the entire work being a recitation of what an angel told him, in turn memorized by a group of acolytes, none of whom apparently could read or write, as I recall.

Now we have all these letters, of unknown provenance and reading like marketing testimonials for some kind of drug.

Whatever.
 
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