Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Bells]

Except such behaviour is expected when the culprit was white and/or male. Christians must always declare how 'awful' the Crusades were, and that they weren't representative of their religion. Australians are expected to apologise for the Stolen Generation. Germans are expected to suck Jewish wang, and are still so uptight about anti-semitism even 60+ years after WWII. Blacks in America are still crying and trying to make the white man feel guilty about slavery. Men were expected to hang their heads in shame in response to the Montreal massacre. Hell, just recently an *Aboriginal* man took it upon himself to apologise for Aboriginal men in regards to the domestic abuse of women.

The fact is that whites, Westerners and men are constantly named and shamed, and associated with 'atrocities' which they had no part in. S.A.M engages in the shaming of the atheist/Western collective all the time, and several partisans on this forum jack their dicks in glee while she does so.

Have you ever actually sat down and thought why she may do that?

Have you ever thought that we you do wrong, you should apologise for it? I know it's a hard concept.. that you think you should be privileged and reap the rewards gained through past injustices.. but thankfully, not everyone thinks that way.

But she is the one attempting to justify the behaviour of terrorists, responding to condemnations of their actions with criticism of the West. Apparently being occupied exonerates you of all atrocities you commit while under occupation.

And that isn't a mentality particular to her. It's a mentality I find prevalent amongst Muslims I have encountered, where they use the 'Yeah... but' excuse. 'Yeah, those atrocities are horrible, but the West done X!'
'Yeah, he beat his wife, but she was a bitch!'

The West is killing Muslims at a great rate. So her reminding you of that is what exactly, justification? Why do you think terrorism even exists?

You know the saying "you reap what you sow"? We sowed plenty and now we are reaping the rewards. Her reminding you of that isn't justifying the crimes committed by terrorists. She is attempting to remind you that we sowed so much that we are getting bogged down in the rewards.

 

[John99]

Bells, we should hope for peace all over the world.

 

[Bells]

Bells, we should hope for peace all over the world.

High hopes, don't you think?

We can't have peace all over the world when we are happy to sit back and watch genocides from our TV's and do nothing about them.

 

[Baron Max]

The fact is that whites, Westerners and men are constantly named and shamed, and associated with 'atrocities' which they had no part in. S.A.M engages in the shaming of the atheist/Western collective all the time, ....

Exactly!! And SAM is even worse about collectively condemning Israelis and Jews in the Palestinian problems!

I except no apologises for the acts of Muslim terrorists, but I do expect condemnation for the acts of terrorism. SAM does NOT ...worse, SAM tries to justify it.

But she is the one attempting to justify the behaviour of terrorists, responding to condemnations of their actions with criticism of the West.

Exactly!!

And that isn't a mentality particular to her. It's a mentality I find prevalent amongst Muslims I have encountered, where they use the 'Yeah... but' excuse. 'Yeah, those atrocities are horrible, but the West done X!'

Yes, exactly!

And what I find almost as bad is that Bells is trying to justify SAM's actions!

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

The West is killing Muslims at a great rate.

Interesting slant, Bells. However, Muslims are the ones killing other Muslims at great rates!! ...far greater than that killed by the West!

Muslim extremists blow up their own people on an almost daily basis. SAM and other Muslims gloss right over those acts of terrorism!! But if an errant missile accidentally kills a civilian, SAM adamantly and loudly blames the entire Western world.

So her reminding you of that is what exactly, justification? Why do you think terrorism even exists? ... You know the saying "you reap what you sow"?

So, ....you're now trying to justify the acts of terrorism around the world, Bells? If 50-60 years ago an American did something, then the Muslim extremists are justified in blowing up Westerners for that act? Hmm.

Baron Max

 

[(Q)]

Yes. Because the Muslims on this forum = all Muslims around the world. So when some Muslim in whatever country does something bad, the Muslims on this forum have to own up to it, apologise to all of us for it and beg our forgiveness.

That's about right, isn't it?

I would tend to agree with there, Bells, if in fact that was the case. If Muslim extremists do something in the name of Allah, we don't criticize the person himself, but instead the ideology that is used to justify the act; Islam. It should be then, that the Muslims here explain this justification, which is something they rarely, if ever, do. Instead, they defend Islam and lay blame elsewhere.

On the other hand, Muslims here will speak for their entire group when it suits their agenda, for example, when they claim to being victimized.

 

[vhawk]

oh , sorry, I thought it was fair to point out that Afghans are not Arabs- really, honestly they are not, sorry to break any rules

 

[(Q)]

the Arabs invented maths and science and were able astronomers, scientists, engineers and mathematicians while Europeans were busy fighting wars and living in ignorant muck- never bathing.

Uh, that isn't exactly accurate. Arabs were living at about the same level of "ignorant muck" the rest of the world was experiencing in the dark ages, in some cases worse and in others slightly better. The rest is Islamic propaganda.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Uh, that isn't exactly accurate. Arabs were living at about the same level of "ignorant muck" the rest of the world was experiencing in the dark ages, in some cases worse and in others slightly better. The rest is Islamic propaganda.

Not to mention that science and math they stole from the Romans and Greeks. The bigger question is why did they not progress?

 

[Baron Max]

... The bigger question is why did they not progress?

I agree ....and it's one that no one has been able to adequately answer. I think it's far more important than the question of who invented what. Even if the Arabs invented all that shit, what the hell happened to them after that? Was it Islam that held them all back from progressing? Or is it something else altogether?

Baron Max

 

[ElectricFetus]

I agree ....and it's one that no one has been able to adequately answer. I think it's far more important than the question of who invented what. Even if the Arabs invented all that shit, what the hell happened to them after that? Was it Islam that held them all back from progressing? Or is it something else altogether?

Baron Max

I think islam was not really the problem although when wahhabism kicked in ~200 years ago that things went from bad to worse: its started a trend not just for sunnis but for most Muslims towards fundamentalism, the train of though goes something like "We must do everything exactly as a Koran and hadiths dictate, it is because we have not been following it perfectly that god has forsaken us." and thus their morality rolls back ~1500 years!

 

[DiamondHearts]

Are you people that clueless? Go read about some of these people. I'll give you some names Khwarezmi, Ibn Sina, Al-Jabbar, Al Biruni, Bukhari, Al Zahrawi, Ibn Battuta, Al Kindi, Al Tabari, Al Ghazali, Omar Khayyam, etc.

There are more. When you get through the list, ask me and I'll give you some more names to research.

 

[sensei]

Nonsense

Great, now answer one question, why are the vast majority of terrorist acts committed in the Name of Allah, why is the most common rallying war cry, Allahu Akhbar!!!!!!!!

Yes, not all Muslims are Terrorist, but the vast majority of terrorist acts are committed by Muslims.



3,000,000 stories about Muslim Terror, yes name the day where some act of terror isn't committed, killing innocent people, Muslims and people of other religions, in the name of Allah, the Religion of Peace, and sanctity of the Ummah.

There are many Muslims who I have no problem with prime example Zackaryia, here on the Forum, or those of the Bahai' but there are a vast number of Muslims who are on a Mission from Allah, to convert the world with the sword and war if necessary, and to them it is necessary, and return the world to the Glory Days of Islam, 1400 years ago.

Islamic powers of 1400 years ago less extreme, revisionist history, Just read the Muslim Conquest of India, and tell me that Islam is less extreme than the western powers of today.

Read the histories of the Islamic Conquest and establishment of their Empire, and tell me that they were less extreme than the Western Power's of today, only in revisionist history.

It the Western Powers of today were as extreme as the Muslim Terrorist of today, let alone Islam 1400 years ago there wouldn't be a Muslim enclave anywhere in Europe or the Americas that hadn't been razed to the ground and their population killed of sent packing back to the middle east with no boat.

Yes, Sir, you are a revisionist.

you start off with " muslim terror ", then you continue by saying that there are many muslim you don't have a problem with and that is followed by you calling islam a religion of violence oh wait here is another one >

" there wouldn't be a Muslim enclave anywhere in Europe or the Americas that hadn't been razed to the ground and their population killed of sent packing back to the middle east with no boat."

WOW !! there is a lot coming out of this comment!
he is not a revisionist , he is just telling it like it is!!!
you are a flip-flopper, you don't know were to stand , and another thing, TO COMMIT TERRIBLE ACTS AND CLAIM THAT YOU DID IT IN THE NAME OF ALLAH
( GOD ) DOES NOT MAKE YOU A MUSLIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GEE!!!!!! people man !!!

 

[DiamondHearts]

Let me be the first to officially state that on behalf of the world's Muslims I demand several things from the West.

1. COMPLETE NON-INTERFERENCE: As of this day, all Western governments and all Western individuals, except those approved by the democratically elected governments of our sovereign countries, should leave immediately. Western countries should not have the right to influence the internal politics of any Muslim country. This will allow truly representative governments to take power in the Middle East.

2. WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS: All troops and security personnel belonging to Western nations should be withdrawn immediately, if not they should be seized and escorted back to their rightful government. No foreign forces will be tolerated in the Muslim world.

3. REPARATIONS: For all the wealth seized from our land, all the destruction of our indigenous institutions, and payment in the form of monetary sums to replace the destroyed or stolen resources and institutions of our lands. Naturally this will have to be settled through the governments representing the people, through unhindered democracy. African nations should be paid reparations for slavery due to the theft of millions of its free citizens by Western Atlantic powers.

I guarantee the above three points will bring instant peace to the Muslim World, after an interim period where democratic elections should be allowed to take place. The Organization of the Islamic Conference should be the only organization allowed to deal with the matter. It is the only way for the US occupying power to recover some dignity and perhaps even establish cordial relations with Muslims in the long-term.

 

[copernicus66]

Have you ever actually sat down and thought why she may do that?

Yes. She gains a perverse from antagonising Westerners and atheists.

Have you ever thought that we you do wrong, you should apologise for it?

*I* did wrong? So now you're claiming that all men did wrong when some guy committed the Montreal massacre? All Australians did wrong when the British dispossessed the Aboriginals of their land? All Christians did wrong when some Christians from the medieval period launched the Crusades?

Interesting, it seems you're more than willing to subscribe to the notion of collective guilt, when the collective is not a minority.

The West is killing Muslims at a great rate.

Even if that were true, so what? Tu quoque logic fallacy on your (and her) behalf.

So her reminding you of that is what exactly, justification?

Yes, she attempts to justify (or at the very least, mitigate) terrorist behaviour.

Why do you think terrorism even exists?

Who gives a shit? You're just obfuscating what is actually a very simple issue.

You know the saying "you reap what you sow"?

Yes. A woman who antagonises her husband is just asking for him to kill her offspring, right? A society which ostracises the socially inept are just asking for them to engage in a school shooting, ya? There is no such thing as personal responsibility in your world, it's far easier to shift the blame to the omnipresent big bad 'West'.

We sowed plenty

Subscribing to the collective guilt concept again? While condemning those who you think are assigning collective guilt to Muslims? Hoo boy, you're a huge hypocrite.

and now we are reaping the rewards.

Excuses excuses. Terrorists *choose* how to react. There are many valid means to respond to perceived injustices which don't involve deliberating targeting civilians who played no role in the injustice.

Her reminding you of that isn't justifying the crimes committed by terrorists.

Yes, it is attempting to justify (or at least mitigate) those crimes by demonising the West.

She is attempting to remind you that we sowed so much that we are getting bogged down in the rewards.

Which is bullshit. But hey, continue subscribing to the white guilt fantasy if it pleases you.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Are you people that clueless? Go read about some of these people. I'll give you some names Khwarezmi, Ibn Sina, Al-Jabbar, Al Biruni, Bukhari, Al Zahrawi, Ibn Battuta, Al Kindi, Al Tabari, Al Ghazali, Omar Khayyam, etc.

There are more. When you get through the list, ask me and I'll give you some more names to research.

Preciously our point: what happen? Why has the Muslim world fallen so behind in the sciences, the arts, everything, in the last few centuries??

 

[DiamondHearts]

Preciously our point: what happen? Why has the Muslim world fallen so behind in the sciences, the arts, everything, in the last few centuries??

Poverty because of colonialism. It's simple enough, when you can't afford to eat, how can you afford to send your children to school. Our societies and institutions were completely destroyed during the colonial period, then with the upheaval in the independence wars against Western colonization, and finally with the assassination of several aspiring leaders of the Islamic world in the '70s including King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan, and the eventual ineffectiveness of Imam Khomeini due to supporting of rival religious leaders in Iran.

That is why we have an obligation to represent the downtrodden and oppressed Muslim masses. Our words, represent not only us, but the 1.7 billion Muslims throughout the world. One day we will come back, you will see.

BTW, there are numerous Muslim scientists in the modern age who are leading the fields of medicine, physics, engineering, and agriculture. The problem is they come to the West, because their governments cannot pay them top salaries due to economic constraints.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Poverty because of colonialism. It's simple enough, when you can't afford to eat, how can you afford to send your children to school. Our societies and institutions were completely destroyed during the colonial period, then with the upheaval in the independence wars against Western colonization, and finally with the assassination of several aspiring leaders of the Islamic world in the '70s including King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan, and the eventual ineffectiveness of Imam Khomeini due to supporting of rival religious leaders in Iran.

I would say lack of developed military technology made you defenseless. If you want to prove people like buffalo roam wrong about Muslims being blood thirsty, ask him why the middle east did keep pace with Europe in weapons tech, I'll tell you why europe developed the most advance weapons in the world: because they were so preoccupied with finding better ways to kill each other.

That is why we have an obligation to represent the downtrodden and oppressed Muslim masses. Our words, represent not only us, but the 1.7 billion Muslims throughout the world.

And your doing an awful job, all I hear is whining about the west and israel, fuck Muslims I know personally don't talk about such things! But then again perhaps I'm just thinking of SAM.

One day we will come back, you will see.

After the singularity I hope.

BTW, there are numerous Muslim scientists in the modern age who are leading the fields of medicine, physics, engineering, and agriculture.

By proportions grossly out of ratio with the rest of the world. 9 Nobel laureates out of ~20% of the worlds population, tisk tisk.

The problem is they come to the West, because their governments cannot pay them top salaries due to economic constraints.

Don't worry some places in the west are getting so bad it makes going home look attractive.

 

[sensei]

a lot of animosity in the air, come on kids behave!!

 

[DiamondHearts]

Some examples from Pakistan's history of oppression of British colonization:

Writing about the unrest among the Punjabi Muslims during the 1857 Mutiny, Mr. S S Thorburn, ICS, a Financial Commissioner of the Punjab has the following to say:

"The Muhammadan tribes were growing restive as the weeks lengthened….. The first to break out into blind, clumsy rebellion against order were branches of that numerous and barbarous people, the Gujjars, once supreme in Kashmir, but for centuries scattered as grazier and slovely cultivators from the Kaghan glen in Hazara to Delhi. About Ludhiana and southwards bands of them collected and began plundering, but having neither cohesion, intelligence, nor firearms, were easily suppressed. From time to time other tribes in the same neighbourhood, such as the incorrigibly lazy and improvident Ranghars and the gipsy fraternities, known as the criminal tribes, whom neither kindness nor severity has yet tamed to honest labour, also attempted risings, but were at once hunted down by police and levies, and terrorised into their normal condition of inoffensive uselessness. Later, the Kharals and Dhunds of the hills between Hazara and Rawalpindi made a combined movement against the hill sanatorium, Murree, but their insurrection fizzled out. Then, towards the end of the long tension in the third month of the struggle before Delhi, an insurrection on a large scale broke out amongst the pastoral Muhammadan tribes, Kharrals and others, inhabiting the jungly tracts between Lahore and Multan. Though their largest gang took, sacked and for some days, occupied a small town, Kot Kamalia, their rebellion was never formidable. They were merely roaming mobs of boors and cattlemen and boys. Once only did they venture on a combat with a small troop of horses. Wild and cunning as jackals in shifting from lair to lair, their suppression gave occupation for three months to several flying columns, and not until trackers followed up their spoor, and their flocks and herds were captured, did the troublesome business end."
(The Punjab in Peace and War, by S.S.Thorburn)

After the War of Independence in 1857, the British government assumed sovereignty over the lands of the British East India Company. The British control over the Sub-continent grew in the next 50 years and culminated in the British Raj. Queen Victoria's Indian realm continued to expand, until Hunza, the remote kingdom bordering China, fell into British hands in 1891, bringing the expansion to its zenith.

The British delineated the frontier separating British India from Afghanistan in 1893. The resulting Durand Line cut straight through the tribal area of the Pathans. The British left the tribal areas to govern themselves under the supervision of British political agents.

The British thus became masters of India, where for nearly 800 years Muslims had ruled. However, their attitude towards the Muslims was that of antipathy. According to Hunter, a prominent historian, "The Muslims of India are, and have been for many years, a source of chronic danger to the British power in India". The British attributed the war of 1857 to the Muslims alone. As a result, property belonging to Muslims was confiscated and they were denied employment opportunities everywhere in the army, revenue department, and judiciary.

The British administrators deliberately followed a discriminatory policy against the Muslims, even in filling minor jobs. Advertisements inviting applications for government jobs specifically mentioned that Muslims would not be appointed. Hunter admits that the exclusion of the Muslims was so complete that in the government offices of Calcutta they could not accept a post higher than that of a porter, messenger, filler of inkpots and mender of pens.

By a series of revenue and financial measures, the British smashed the political and social position of the Muslims. In the province of Bombay, the government appointed "Inam Commission" to inquire into the land grants of the Muslim times. The Commission took away 20,000 estates from the Muslims and thus ruined many families and institutions of the community.

The Company's commercial policy eliminated the Muslims from internal and foreign trade. When the Europeans came to the Sub-continent, the Muslim merchants lost much of their commerce with foreign countries. But they maintained their hold on internal trade and their commercial activities extended to the Persian Gulf and the coastal territories of the Arabian Sea. During the Company's rule, the Muslim traders were pushed out of this area as well by the competition of the Company's traders who enjoyed many special concessions.

The newly introduced English system of education had many drawbacks for the Muslims, mainly because it made no provisions for religious education. As a result, they stayed away from it. Thus, within a few years of loss of political power, the Muslims lost all avenues of employment, were dispossessed of their estates and deprived of the benefits of education. A highly cultured community turned into a backward and poor people. In their place British-educated Hindus began to occupy positions in governments offices formerly held by the Muslims.

http://www.storyofpakistan.com/articletext.asp?artid=A023&Pg=1