Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[S.A.M.]

Its an occupation. To expect people not to fight back against being ghettoed, starved and deprived of liberty is unrealistic.

Unless all the whiners address the real issues, their complaints are pointless. While they are shooting infants in the head and bombing neighborhoods, I really can't give any credibility to their complaints.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Its an occupation. To expect people not to fight back against being ghettoed, starved and deprived of liberty is unrealistic.

Again a strawman, I'm not saying they can't fight back or that we don't expect them too, rather I'm questioning if it is right to fight back by attacking the civilians.

Unless all the whiners address the real issues, their complaints are pointless. While they are shooting infants in the head and bombing neighborhoods, I really can't give any credibility to their complaints.

Who are "they"? The israeli military? The Israeli government? The Israeli people? There children? Countries that support Israel?

Lets go over the practicality of it: If you agree with targeting any beyond the military your going to see increasing not decreasing resolve to continue and increase the severity of "occupation", all that "whining" will translating into votes and approval for more "shooting infants in the head and bombing neighborhoods" which they see merely as collateral damage from military operations that are specifically trying to target aggressors in an civilians area, as the civilian body that elects these conservative leaders see it as allowable moral sacrifice for self defense. Now if only their soldiers were attacked and progress was stagnant the people would have a change in heart, elect liberal leaders and pull out: the desire for self defense is outweighed by the moral consideration of the wrongness of collateral damage and sending soldiers to die for an unjust cause.

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe the soldiers should stop hiding among the civilians.

 

[kmguru]

http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1289203/apps/s/content.asp?ct=6829271

UN WATCH - MONITORING THE UNITED NATIONS, PROMOTING HUMAN RIGHTS

Proposal at U.N. rights council to criminalize 'defamation of Islam'



Geneva, March 11, 2009 — UN Watch, a human rights monitoring organization based in Geneva, denounced a new U.N. resolution circulated today by Islamic states that would define any questioning of Islamic dogma as a human rights violation, intimidate dissenting voices, and encourage the forced imposition of Sharia law. (See full U.N. text below.)



UN Watch obtained a copy of the Pakistani-authored proposal after it was distributed today among Geneva diplomats attending the current session of the UN Human Rights Council. Entitled "Combating defamation of religions," it mentions only Islam.



"While non-binding," said UN Watch executive director Hillel Neuer, "the resolution constitutes a dangerous threat to free speech everywhere. It would ban any perceived offense to Islamic sensitivities as a 'serious affront to human dignity' and a violation of religious freedom, and would pressure U.N. member states -- at the 'local, national, regional and international levels' -- to erode the free speech guarantees in their 'legal and constitutional systems.'"



"This is an Orwellian text that distorts the meaning of human rights, free speech, and religious freedom, and marks a giant step backwards for liberty and democracy worldwide," said Neuer.



"The first to suffer will be moderate Muslims in the countries that are behind this resolution, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan, where state-sanctioned blasphemy laws stifle religious freedom and outlaw conversions from Islam to other faiths," said Neuer.



"Next to suffer from this U.N.-sanctioned McCarthyism will be writers and journalists in the democratic West, with the resolution targeting the media for the 'deliberate stereotyping of religions, their adherents and sacred persons.'"



"Ultimately, the very notion of individual human rights is at stake, because the sponsors of this resolution seek not to protect individuals from harm, but rather to shield a specific set of beliefs from any question, debate, or critical inquiry," said Neuer.

"The very term 'defamation of religion' is a distortion. The legal concept of defamation protects the reputations of individuals, not beliefs. It also requires an examination of the truth or falsity of the challenged remarks -- a determination that no one, especially not the UN, is capable of undertaking concerning any religion."



"Tragically, given that Islamic states completely dominate the Human Rights Council with the support of non-democratic members like Russia, China, and Cuba, adoption of the Orwellian resolution is a forgone conclusion, and all that U.S. and E.U. diplomats can do is try to win over a handful of Latin American states into the opposition camp."

 

[ElectricFetus]

Maybe the soldiers should stop hiding among the civilians.

Israeli soldiers are not plain clothed, their tanks, helicopters, trucks, hummers, etc are easily discernible from Israeli civilians and most of all their soldiers are often in areas devoid of Israeli citizens, smack in the middle of "occupied" Palestine, how the fuck is that "hiding among civilians"??? What, do you want to attack them when they are on a israeli bus, have to crawl inside Israeli and blow your self up, over simply picking them off at checkpoints or as they prowl through Palestinians streets and live to fight again?

 

[Baron Max]

Its an occupation. To expect people not to fight back against being ghettoed, starved and deprived of liberty is unrealistic.

I would expect people to fight the occupiers, but not the innocent women and children ...which is what the Pals do all the time. They're too cowardly to stand up to or to fight with Israeli men or the IDF. So they specifically target women and children. And you expect us to feel sympathy for people like that?

Unless all the whiners address the real issues, their complaints are pointless. While they are shooting infants in the head and bombing neighborhoods, I really can't give any credibility to their complaints.

But it's okay for the Pals to blow up women and children in a public marketplace in Israel? And it's okay for the Pals to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israeli towns? Where are your complaints about those incidents, SAM? Or are you just being totally biased as usual?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

I would expect people to fight the occupiers, but not the innocent women and children ...which is what the Pals do all the time. They're too cowardly to stand up to or to fight with Israeli men or the IDF. So they specifically target women and children. And you expect us to feel sympathy for people like that?



But it's okay for the Pals to blow up women and children in a public marketplace in Israel? And it's okay for the Pals to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israeli towns? Where are your complaints about those incidents, SAM? Or are you just being totally biased as usual?

Baron Max

I'm pretty sure if the soldiers stopped hiding in plainclothes among the civilians, the occupied people would exclusively target them. Has it been tried?

Israeli soldiers are not plain clothed, their tanks, helicopters, trucks, hummers, etc are easily discernible from Israeli civilians and most of all their soldiers are often in areas devoid of Israeli citizens, smack in the middle of "occupied" Palestine, how the fuck is that "hiding among civilians"??? What, do you want to attack them when they are on a israeli bus, have to crawl inside Israeli and blow your self up, over simply picking them off at checkpoints or as they prowl through Palestinians streets and live to fight again?

No, you're wrong, most soldiers work only a month every year and many more are reservists. If they all lived apart from the non-combat Israelis, then the Palestinians would know whom to target. Plus, you don't expect them to target soldiers near their own homes?

 

[Baron Max]

I'm pretty sure if the soldiers stopped hiding in plainclothes among the civilians, the occupied people would exclusively target them. Has it been tried?

The IDF soldiers do not, and never have, hid among the Israeli civilians!

However, it's interesting that you make that sound like a condemnation, yet you refuse to condemn it when the Pals (or the Iraqis or Afghanis) do it. That's a rather glaring double standard, ain't it, SAM? Care to explain?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

How do you recognise IDF reservists in a crowd?

 

[ElectricFetus]

No, you're wrong, most soldiers work only a month every year and many more are reservists. If they all lived apart from the non-combat Israelis, then the Palestinians would know whom to target.

Same problem: why attack them in their homes while off duty when you can attack them when they petrol your neighborhood!

Plus, you don't expect them to target soldiers near their own homes?

Yes I do, think about it: shoot a soldier at a check point from afar and hidden, then walk back into your civilian populace and disappear in plain sight to do it all over again the next day. How about you build bombs, hid them, when soldiers drive by blow them up with a remote detonator, continue walking along your street with a smile. It's working wonders in iraq where it has bogged down the American troops and demoralized the American people into electing a government that is more inclined to end the war.

 

[Baron Max]

How do you recognise IDF reservists in a crowd?

If they aren't in uniform, then they are NOT combatants! ...and the Pals have no right to blow up a bunch of innocent civilians in the hopes that one might be a reservist on vacation!!

Where is you sense of decency, SAM? Why do you continue to support people who blow up whole marketplaces, killing dozens of innocent people and kids, in some idiotic idea of maybe getting one off-duty soldier????

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

You're kidding right? The IDF kills any and all Hamas members, not just the Qassam brigades who wear uniforms.

Where is you sense of decency, SAM? Why do you continue to support people who blow up whole marketplaces, killing dozens of innocent people and kids, in some idiotic idea of maybe getting one off-duty soldier????

Why do you enable, arm and fund the occupation and starvation of 5 million people? Why do you support a state that treats natives like subhumans, shoots infants in the heads and bombs an entire enclave of citizens that are locked in?

Why do you disregard the results of democratic elections and support puppet regimes?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Why do you enable, arm and fund the occupation and starvation of 5 million people? Why do you support a state that treats natives like subhumans, shoots infants in the heads and bombs an entire enclave of citizens that are locked in?

Because he see their assertion that its self defense as legitimate, the Palestinians terrorist provide that excuse. As long as the Palestinian continue the lunch rockets randomly into civilians population, and blow them selves in civilian areas, the Israelis will have free rain to continue oppressive occupation.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because he see their assertion that its self defense as legitimate, the Palestinians terrorist provide that excuse. As long as the Palestinian continue the lunch rockets randomly into civilians population, and blow them selves in civilian areas, the Israelis will have free rain to continue oppressive occupation.

Amazing isn't it? Supporting an occupation because the native inhabitants are fighting back. Kinda like pushing your head under water and refusing to let up unless you stop thrashing. Or a rapist telling his victim its only rape if they don't consent. Amazing logic. You're fucked anyway, just decide if you consent or not.

 

[Baron Max]

Amazing isn't it? Supporting an occupation because the native inhabitants are fighting back.

But that's just the point, SAM, they aren't "fighting back", they're just terrorizing innocent women and children, bombing them, rocketing them, etc. That's not fighting an occupation, that's just plain fuckin' murder!!

SAM, I woud say nothing, in fact I might even support their efforts if the Pals fought against the IDF and/or against the government officials, etc. But they don't ....the Pals pick on innocent women and children to kill because the Pals are cowardly bastards who aren't willing to fight like men. Fuck 'em!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

But that's just the point, SAM, they aren't "fighting back", they're just terrorizing innocent women and children, bombing them, rocketing them, etc. That's not fighting an occupation, that's just plain fuckin' murder!!

Baron Max

If I did not know that you read my posts, Baron, I would swear you're an ignorant hick. So I would only have to conclude that you're dishonest. Thats a trend with Zionists, so its not surprising. Just not worth my while debating with a dishonest man. :shrug:

 

[Baron Max]

If I did not know that you read my posts, Baron, I would swear you're an ignorant hick. So I would only have to conclude that you're dishonest. Thats a trend with Zionists, so its not surprising. Just not worth my while debating with a dishonest man.

So killing innocent women and children is a valid action against occupiers? Blowing up suicide vests at Israeli wedding parties is a valid action against occupiers? Using heavy roadworking equipment to ram civilian cars, killing the occupants, is a valid action against occupiers?

Baron Max

 

[ElectricFetus]

Amazing isn't it? Supporting an occupation because the native inhabitants are fighting back.

Again a strawman: its not that they are fighting back, its how they are fighting back.

Look at the local populations success in iraq against america, do they go to the USA and blow the selves up on buses and in shopping malls, NO, heck they can't by geography which is probably why they stumbled on a far more successful strategy: insurgency against the US military, it works, the American people ask "why are we having our soldiers kill and die in iraq, what have the iraqis done to us, nothing" and demand pull out. Yet in israel the people ask "why are we having our soldiers kill and die in Palestine, what have the Palestine done to us, oh yeah they keep trying to kill us! Best we have the soilders working on them, god forbid we lighten up or they will come in droves blow them selves and us up, heck lets elect fuckers like Lieberman, sure he a nazi but his plan will keep us from getting blown up!"

So killing innocent women and children is a valid action against occupiers? Blowing up suicide vests at Israeli wedding parties is a valid action against occupiers? Using heavy roadworking equipment to ram civilian cars, killing the occupants, is a valid action against occupiers?

That the way SAM sees it you don't need to ask again. Many Muslims see it that way, which is why they get attack and oppressed.

 

[fedr808]

Fedr, all those things are illegal according to Islamic law. What are you smoking may I ask? Faux news?

How much you wanna bet?

Oh yeah, theres a lot of islamic leaders that smoke pot regularly for "meditation"

 

[S.A.M.]

Again a strawman: its not that they are fighting back, its how they are fighting back.

Then give them the proper arms. So they can fight back the way you think is right. When they got rockets, they stopped blowing themselves up. Whats it been two years since the last suicide bomber? Maybe this is an invesment opportunity for the US. Expand the arms trade. Give equal weaponry to both sides. I bet you'll see more conventional warfare. Who knows, maybe if its 3000 Israelis for every 1000 Palestinians, instead of the current 3, they may also get motivated to move towards a peace agreement.