Is there an historical and living Jesus?

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: It's quite obvious that christians believe in the historical and living Jesus, and it is a known fact that Muslims believe in the existence of Jesus. My belief is that Jesus is a metaphor for the Sun (and this is confirmed by many religious scholars and authors). My question to the forum is, "does Islam reinforce the christian concept of a living Jesus?" And, "what impact does the Islamic concept have on the survival of christianity?" And, "does that make both christianity and Islam wrong?"

I appreciate your comments.

~ M*W
 
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- N*W? Guess you mean M*W.

Most likely there was a historical person whom the attributes of Jesus are attributed. To what degree you believe is subjective.

It's just common sense because a made up person would never stand up to scrutiny. Especially early on. I am referring to when the religion was created people would most likely say "where is this guy, how come he never shows up?"

It is a monumental error to overemphasize sun worship, if it existed at all because it always represented a human like entity it. Some of these entities where really, really supernatural from beginning to end and they were portrayed as such. Perhaps this is where your confusion stems from.
 
All points out that not, at least not in the way he is presented, but more on that later.
Rome presented new Sun God to Jews to convert them to Romes state religion and when Jews didnt accept him Jerusalem were destroyed and history of Jews in exile began.
There were many sects around then, dead sea scrolls shows us example of one those,
there were strict rules and it was something like communism mixed with fundamentalism,
I guess word Jihad originates from there, I remember reading those rules and word jihad was used in some way when rules were broken. My bold guess is that it was root movements of Islam, same Abrahamic religions anyway.
Were there some prophet dangerous enough to make Rome destroy the movement and its leader and then twist that whole thing for political goals ? Just guessing on that one.
The time line of Romes history does match up with supposed gospel writing time line,
example Rome did have just finished the Pantheon, the "house of gods". It was time to unify the state by one state religion with one ultimate God which later turn to be a Vatican after the Emperors didnt claim to be Gods.
Just speculating but that is what history (He-Story) is.
 
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M*W: It's quite obvious that christians believe in the historical and living Jesus, and it is a known fact that Muslims believe in the existence of Jesus. My belief is that Jesus is a metaphor for the Sun (and this is confirmed by many religious scholars and authors). My question to the forum is, "does Islam reinforce the christian concept of a living Jesus?" And, "what impact does the Islamic concept have on the survival of christianity?" And, "does that make both christianity and Islam wrong?"

I appreciate your comments.

~ N*W
My emphasis.
To translate that portion: some religious scholars and authors agree with me.


It would be very hard for them to confirm the non-existence of Jesus. A little science and logic never hurt a skeptic.
 
Medicine*Woman:

Which scholar affirms the Sun hypothesis? I've read it on the internet, but never in a scholarly resource.

If you have any journal articles off hand or high-quality books, post 'em here. I wanna read this.

Plus: Care to be the Mary Magdalene to my Jesus?
 
If some party had simply decided to create a mythical Jesus literature, they would have written one gospel.

The fact that the different gospels contradict each other on many points lends credibility to the historical Jesus hypothesis.
 
It's just common sense because a made up person would never stand up to scrutiny. Especially early on. I am referring to when the religion was created people would most likely say "where is this guy, how come he never shows up?"

Indeed, hence Gilgamesh was a real god! Yes, he predates jesus by a couple of millennia and so, being so "early on", would never have "stood up" if he were fictional. Praise Gilgamesh! May the 27 translations spanning millennia be a testament to your reality!

Unbelievers in Gilgamesh must be killed.

The fact that the different gospels contradict each other on many points lends credibility to the historical Jesus hypothesis.

Absolutely! The fact that the Babylonian version of the Gilgamesh epic contradicts the Sumerian version is just proof that it is even more true!! Praise Gilgamesh!

Twats, the lot of you...
 
The fact that the Babylonian version of the Gilgamesh epic contradicts the Sumerian version is just proof that it is even more true!!
Ah, but they are separated by a thousand years and not included in the same book. The new testament was compiled using texts written within a sixty year range, with the intention of providing a singular vision.
 
SnakeLord:

It is notable that Gilgamesh is confirmed by the founding of the city of Uruk and other places in the myths. That and we know that other epic poems (The Illiad) refer to real places, as per the founding of Troy/Ilum in the 19th century...
 
Ah, but they are separated by a thousand years and not included in the same book. The new testament was compiled using texts written within a sixty year range, with the intention of providing a singular vision.

Firstly let me say "the same book" is quite meaningless given that what you perceive as a "book" is merely a collection of texts welded together after much deliberation by a bunch of nitwits that 6 months beforehand believed there was a certain being with a fork that lived in the sea and caused boats to crash.

Secondly it is overly apparent that those "contradictory", (which proves its truth lol), sections were written in several cases by people that could not by any means have been 'witnesses' -

Mark shows no first-hand understanding of the social situation in Palestine. He is clearly a foreigner, removed both in space and time from the events he alleges. For example, in Mark 10:12, he has Jesus say that if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery. As G. A. Wells, the author of The Historical Evidence for Jesus 10 puts it,

Such an utterance would have been meaningless in Palestine, where only men could obtain divorce. It is a ruling for the Gentile Christian readers... which the evangelist put into Jesus' mouth in order to give it authority. This tendency to anchor later customs and institutions to Jesus' supposed lifetime played a considerable role in the building up of his biography.
One further evidence of the inauthenticity of Mark is the fact that in chapter 7, where Jesus is arguing with the Pharisees, Jesus is made to quote the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah in order to score his debate point. Unfortunately, the Hebrew version says something different from the Greek. Isaiah 29:13, in the Hebrew reads "their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote," whereas the Greek version - and the gospel of Mark - reads "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men" [Revised Standard Version). Wells observes dryly [p. 13], "That a Palestinian Jesus should floor Orthodox Jews with an argument based on a mistranslation of their scriptures is very unlikely." Indeed!
Another powerful argument against the idea that Mark could have been an eye-witness of the existence of Jesus is based upon the observation that the author of Mark displays a profound lack of familiarity with Palestinian geography. If he had actually lived in Palestine, he would not have made the blunders to be found in his gospel. If he never lived in Palestine, he could not have been an eye-witness of Jesus. You get the point.

The most absurd geographical error Mark commits is when he tells the tall tale about Jesus crossing over the Sea of Galilee and casting demons out of a man (two men in Matthew's revised version) and making them go into about 2,000 pigs which, as the King James version puts it, "ran violently down a steep place into the sea... and they were choked in the sea."

Apart from the cruelty to animals displayed by the lovable, gentle Jesus, and his disregard for the property of others, what's wrong with this story? If your only source of information is the King James Bible, you might not ever know. The King James says this marvel occurred in the land of the Gadarenes, whereas the oldest Greek manuscripts say this miracle took place in the land of the Gerasenes. Luke, who also knew no Palestinian geography, also passes on this bit of absurdity. But Matthew, who had some knowledge of Palestine, changed the name to Gadarene in his new, improved version; but this is further improved to Gergesenes in the King James version.

By now the reader must be dizzy with all the distinctions between Gerasenes, Gadarenes, and Gergesenes. What difference does it make? A lot of difference, as we shall see.

Gerasa, the place mentioned in the oldest manuscripts of Mark, is located about 31 miles from the shore of the Sea of Galilee! Those poor pigs had to run a course five miles longer than a marathon in order to find a place to drown! Not even lemmings have to go that far. Moreover, if one considers a "steep" slope to be at least 45 degrees, that would make the elevation of Gerasa at least six times higher than Mt. Everest!

When the author of Matthew read Mark's version, he saw the impossibility of Jesus and the gang disembarking at Gerasa (which, by the way, was also in a different country, the so-called Decapolis). Since the only town in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee that he knew of that started with G was Gadara, he changed Gerasa to Gadara. But even Gadara was five miles from the shore - and in a different country. Later copyists of the Greek manuscripts of all three pig-drowning gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) improved Gadara further to Gergesa, a region now thought to have actually formed part of the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. So much for the trustworthiness of the biblical tradition.

Another example of Mark's abysmal ignorance of Palestinian geography is found in the story he made up about Jesus traveling from Tyre on the Mediterranean to the Sea of Galilee, 30 miles inland. According to Mark 7:31, Jesus and the boys went by way of Sidon, 20 miles north of Tyre on the Mediterranean coast! Since to Sidon and back would be 40 miles, this means that the wisest of all men walked 70 miles when he could have walked only 30. Of course, one would never know all this from the King James version which - apparently completely ignoring a perfectly clear Greek text - says "Departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the Sea of Galilee..." Apparently the translators of the King James version also knew their geography. At least they knew more than did the author of Mark!
- Frank Zindler

When actually studied, there is no "book", true because it's contradictory. No sir, what is the case is that one copied from the other to assert the reality of a story they were never witness to.

Indeed, from the argument presented, it should be vastly more impressive if you have a story that coincides with one written thousands of years ago as opposed to contradicting one written last week. If one "eyewitness" writes an account but can't figure out his left foot from his rectum then serious question must be raised - especially when talking about a supposed god.

Nobody confused gilgamesh from living in Uruk to living in Denmark - be it 1 minute or 1 thousand years later.

It is notable that Gilgamesh is confirmed by the founding of the city of Uruk and other places in the myths. That and we know that other epic poems (The Illiad) refer to real places

Absolutely! Praise Gilgamesh!
 
Snakelord:

Heathen! When you suffer the fate of Enkidu do not come running to me!

Degenerate desert rat. Apollo will scorch you as he scorches the barren waste which you call a home.
 
Firstly let me say "the same book" is quite meaningless given that what you perceive as a "book" is merely a collection of texts welded together...
Welded together for the purpose of presenting a singular vision. Thats obviously the significance you dont understand. If the founders of Christianity deliberately wanted to create a fantasy and present it as truth they would not have included contradictory accounts.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/25/jesus.box.ap/index.html

Scholars say Jesus box may be genuine

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A purported first-century inscription naming Jesus may or may not be the real thing, but Israel's labeling of the find as a fake is premature, scientists and scholars said at a panel discussion.
People who say the Bible and Jesus are mythological also think the pyramids of Giza and Pharaohs are mythological.

4-pyramids-giza.jpg
 
As usual, a black or white outlook on the subject. Jesus was probably real, but much of what is said about him is a myth.
 
Welded together for the purpose of presenting a singular vision.

Oh my friend you're talking bull poop. How much shit was welded together to present the "vision" that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction to serve a purpose?

And the beauty of such twattage is that you win either way... When it is something you do not desire to be true you would see contradiction and fart in its general direction, but when you see contradiction in your own garbage it is god inspired reality.

You have no just cause, given your arguments to time etc, to dismiss the claims of say Thomas - who states how a young jesus slaughtered several children for slight irritation of his lordlinesses particular fragilities. But it is dismissed instantly - not because of anything credible, but because it contradicts. When I say so, contradiction is bad.. in every other case contradiction is just fine. It is the absolute pinnacle of idiocy - all brought together by a bunch of men that thought it was just peachy to wear skirts and f*** boys. And all that time they were arguing whether perhaps mithraism was the better way to go. Hell, it took until the fourth century to stumble upon the idea that jesus was a god - all based upon the writings of people that didn't even know their left foot from their right butt cheek.

If the founders of Christianity deliberately wanted to create a fantasy and present it as truth they would not have included contradictory accounts.

The thing is that the supposed founders of "christianity", jesus included, were actually just expouding upon jewish ideas. Your typical christian would claim to believe in the same god as featured in the OT. Yahweh and Jesus are actually the same entity. One orders you to kill anyone that works on the sabbath, the other says it's quite alright and yet his followers complain when he is killed after doing just that.

Needless to say, there is no reason to assert that "they wanted to create a fantasy", merely that it was a fantasy, (much like the ideas of David Koresh that vastly contradict other teachings of the bible). Let's assert for a second that this jesus exists. A rabbi teaching the 'law' but adding his own version of it. He gets followers, (as many of these freaks do), and goes about contradicting many of the previous teachings.. These followers continue the trend and it is then established by a bunch of people that can't figure out which god they want to worship this week. There simply is no desire to "create a fantasy", merely a fantasy that has been created. Contradiction is bound to happen in such instance - it is frankly quite impossible to avoid.
 
Indeed, hence Gilgamesh was a real god! Yes, he predates jesus by a couple of millennia and so, being so "early on", would never have "stood up" if he were fictional. Praise Gilgamesh! May the 27 translations spanning millennia be a testament to your reality!

Unbelievers in Gilgamesh must be killed.

The issue is whether there was a historical Jesus. Medicine woman asserted that religous scholars had confirmed her belief that there was no such person. That is absurd.

It is not generally accepted by non-religious scholars that there was no historical Jesus. And for good reason.

You are pissed off at the religious and Christians and I can think of many reasons for you to be, but that is beside the point. Medicine Woman' hypothesis has little merit. She could, coincidentally, be correct, but her assertion is weakly supported. The idea that some religious scholars confirmed his non-existence is a joke.
 
Well almost every second jew was named Jesus back then. Chances are one of them said some interesting things, saw some flaws in existing 2000 year old Hebrew doctrine and got rolled for it. Then the Romans pinned all their religions on this one intersting sect that seemed to take off from this splinter hebrew sect of -30 to 90AD.

That's my guess and I have no evidence to back it up...but that doesn't matter, we are talking about religion.
 
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