Is there a medium "in space", a medium "of space", neither, or both?

[quantum_wave]

The pair are created with opposite angular momentums. Meaning they are exact opposites. It doesn't matter how far apart they are. They will always be detected with opposite spins. And since they are propagating with opposite angular momentums the mathematical wave-function of quantum mechanics applies.

This is why de Broglie's has a double solution theory. One wave is physical and describes the interaction between the particle and its physical wave. The other wave describes the wave function. de Broglie's double solution theory is both classical and quantum.

The following describes what is occurring classically.

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

Nothing is determined over large distances. They are going to be detected with the spins they are because they are propagating with opposite angular momentums. Nothing is hidden as there are no such things as hidden-variables.

You are making a claim about what does or does not exist in the quantum realm, i.e. when you say that there are no hidden variables and you saying that there is no local reality, at least in the sense that I call local reality. Such a claim is called "ontic", I believe, referring to ontology ( From WiKi: Ontology—claims about what things, such as categories and entities, exist in the world).

In contrast, as I said in post #64, "The Hidden Variables interpretations are based on an assumption the various interpretations of QM are incomplete, and that there is an underlying level of reality, what I call the foundational level, or some kind of sub-quanta world that is as yet undetected."

My claim is about possibilities, and as yet undiscovered sub quanta in an as yet undetected realm I call the foundational medium of space. My position is what is referred to as epistemic (From WiKi: Epistemology—claims about the possibility, scope, and means toward relevant knowledge of the world).

The difference between my epistemic claim and your ontic claim is that you say that according to your view, the nature of reality does not include hidden variables, and my epistemic claim is that the nature of reality is as yet undiscovered, and as such, any interpretation that rejects hidden variables is incomplete.

But our difference goes deeper, because the details of each of our interpretations deviates from the consensus interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (or at least I know my does; you can decide for yourself if yours differs). Rather than just calling the consensus "the Copenhagen group of interpretations", I want to refer to the consensus interpretation in layman terms as that which is conveyed by Zellinger in "The Dance of the Photons", which I read last year. In a nut shell, a photon (or presumably any particle) is in superposition until it is observed, and he defines experiments that show photons taking two paths when unobserved, and interfering with each other, and thus he concludes that a single photon appears to be in two places at once if it is unobserved. For a reference to Zellinger's conclusions, here is a article that tries to sum it up http://luysii.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/quantum-superposition-experimental-proof/

Your argument that there are no hidden variables is supported by Zellinger, and my argument is not falsified by Zellinger, which you might take to mean that your position is stronger than mine. But yours is "ontic" and mine is "epistemic". You don't think there is any incompleteness to you interpretation, and I think it is incomplete and that there is a foundational medium full of wave energy at all times, and when a particle is unobserved, it still exists in specific states, and has both location and momentum.

As you can tell, I'm not sophisticated and can't make any claims of evidence for my position. You, on the other hand, have a great deal of support compiled and I give you credit for that. I guess between our views, it boils down to the same problem for both of us, that you cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove there are no hidden variables, and I cannot prove that the other interpretations of QM are incomplete.

 

[cav755]

But our difference goes deeper, because the details of each of our interpretations deviates from the consensus interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (or at least I know my does; you can decide for yourself if yours differs). Rather than just calling the consensus "the Copenhagen group of interpretations", I want to refer to the consensus interpretation in layman terms as that which is conveyed by Zellinger in "The Dance of the Photons", which I read last year. In a nut shell, a photon (or presumably any particle) is in superposition until it is observed, and he defines experiments that show photons taking two paths when unobserved, and interfering with each other, and thus he concludes that a single photon appears to be in two places at once if it is unobserved. For a reference to Zellinger's conclusions, here is a article that tries to sum it up http://luysii.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/quantum-superposition-experimental-proof/

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

"XII. Conclusion
Such is, in its main lines, the present state of the Wave mechanics interpretation by the double-solution theory, and its thermodynamical extension. I think that when this interpretation is further elaborated, extended, and eventually modified in some of its aspects, it will lead to a better understanding of the true coexistence of waves and particles about which actual Quantum mechanics only gives statistical information, often correct, but in my opinion incomplete."

Further elaborating, extending and modifying de Broglie's double solution theory in some of its aspect is understanding aether has mass and is what waves in a double slit experiment.

With this correct understanding of what occurs physically in nature the notion of superposition is superfluous.

Quantum mechanics is incomplete. It is incomplete because it fails to realize in a double slit experiment it is the aether which waves.

Hidden variables was an idea used to try and explain the behaviors associated with entanglement.

Due to conservation of momentum, entanglement is one photon's ability to determine the position and momentum of its pair means there are no such things as hidden variables.

 

[origin]

As you can tell, I'm not sophisticated and can't make any claims of evidence for my position.

Remember in the good old days when you weren't allowed to post your idle nonscientific musing in the in the science section? Boy, those were the days. Just science in the science section - what a concept!

 

[quantum_wave]

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

"XII. Conclusion
Such is, in its main lines, the present state of the Wave mechanics interpretation by the double-solution theory, and its thermodynamical extension. I think that when this interpretation is further elaborated, extended, and eventually modified in some of its aspects, it will lead to a better understanding of the true coexistence of waves and particles about which actual Quantum mechanics only gives statistical information, often correct, but in my opinion incomplete."

Further elaborating, extending and modifying de Broglie's double solution theory in some of its aspect is understanding aether has mass and is what waves in a double slit experiment.

With this correct understanding of what occurs physically in nature the notion of superposition is superfluous.

Quantum mechanics is incomplete. It is incomplete because it fails to realize in a double slit experiment it is the aether which waves.

Hidden variables was an idea used to try and explain the behaviors associated with entanglement.

Due to conservation of momentum, entanglement is one photon's ability to determine the position and momentum of its pair means there are no such things as hidden variables.

I think of a photon as a wave-particle. A particle, in this case a photon, is composed of standing wave energy in quantum increments (the number of quantum increments equates to the energy of the photon similar to how frequency equates to it, except the process is orchestrated by quantum action, i.e. the mechanics that establish the presence of particles and their motion, in my hobby-model.

The photon emits energy just as fast at it absorbs gravitational energy, and in that sense is a complex set of standing waves with inflowing and out flowing wave energy components (gravity waves). The difference between the photon and any particle with less velocity, is that the photon gets all of its inflowing energy from one direction, the direction of motion, and emits its out flowing energy in gravity waves trailing behind its path.

There is information in that trailing wave energy gradient, and that is how the photon transfers information. Entanglement is a concept that says the photon's states of spin and momentum are superimposed, but in my hobby-model, they are mechanically identifiable at all times, hence consistent with my hidden variables interpretation.

 

[cav755]

I think of a photon as a wave-particle. A particle, in this case a photon, is composed of standing wave energy in quantum increments (the number of quantum increments equates to the energy of the photon similar to how frequency equates to it, except the process is orchestrated by quantum action, i.e. the mechanics that establish the presence of particles and their motion, in my hobby-model.

The photon emits energy just as fast at it absorbs gravitational energy, and in that sense is a complex set of standing waves with inflowing and out flowing wave energy components (gravity waves). The difference between the photon and any particle with less velocity, is that the photon gets all of its inflowing energy from one direction, the direction of motion, and emits its out flowing energy in gravity waves trailing behind its path.

There is information in that trailing wave energy gradient, and that is how the photon transfers information. Entanglement is a concept that says the photon's states of spin and momentum are superimposed, but in my hobby-model, they are mechanically identifiable at all times, hence consistent with my hidden variables interpretation.

This is your thread so this will be my last post. When you understand it is the aether which waves in a double slit experiment you understand the notion of superposition is nonsense. When you understand entanglement is one particle's ability to know the position and momentum of the other you understand the notion of hidden variables is nonsense.

 

[quantum_wave]

Thank you for all of your great posts, and that goes for everyone who participated on topic. Cav, you know that by making that your last post, you are giving me the last word, so I will take the opportunity .

This is your thread so this will be my last post. When you understand it is the aether which waves in a double slit experiment you understand the notion of superposition is nonsense.

It certainly must seem like nonsense to some, but to me it is the consensus among professionals in the scientific community. There are many things about the consensus theories, especially when it comes to GR and QM that simply describe different aspects of nature; two different realms where GR works fine in the macro realm if you aren't insisting on mechanics, and QM which works fine in the quantum realm if you aren't insisting on what they refer to as "local reality".

There are models for every combination of approaches, and there are professionals actively studying every combination by employing the scientific method. They can only go so far without reducing their activity to hopes for developing better instruments, extending their observations, and continuing to try to understand nature by exchanging ideas of how to quantify it. If you are comfortable with that being the nature of science, you are a friend of mine.

When you understand entanglement is one particle's ability to know the position and momentum of the other you understand the notion of hidden variables is nonsense.

Taking the opportunity for the last word (and you are welcome to reply if you change your mind), it isn't over until its over. I'm suspecting an asteroid may settle everything for us Earthlings before we reach an understanding of the nature of reality, lol. (1083)

 

[cav755]

It certainly must seem like nonsense to some, but to me it is the consensus among professionals in the scientific community. There are many things about the consensus theories, especially when it comes to GR and QM that simply describe different aspects of nature; two different realms where GR works fine in the macro realm if you aren't insisting on mechanics, and QM which works fine in the quantum realm if you aren't insisting on what they refer to as "local reality".

Once you understand aether has mass and Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality you understand they are not describing different realms of reality.

Once you understand entanglement is each of the downconverted pair being able to determine the position and momentum of the other you understand all there is is "local reality".

 

[quantum_wave]

I don't know if this is the first time we have been emitted into the Universal jet or the trillionth time. I don't know if it's cyclical or if stuff emitted into the Universal jet continues on forever away from the Universal jet.

I don't know if our Universal jet is all that there is or if we are in a sea of Universal jets analogous to all of the black hole polar jets we see in our Universe.

I do think there is something to the Rindler horizon (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/UHS_geodesics.png), however, this is pure speculation.

What is not pure speculation is understanding our Universe is an ongoing process.

'Cosmic microwave background'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic..._radiation#Low_multipoles_and_other_anomalies

"With the increasingly precise data provided by WMAP, there have been a number of claims that the CMB exhibits anomalies, such as very large scale anisotropies, anomalous alignments, and non-Gaussian distributions. ... A number of groups have suggested that this could be the signature of new physics at the greatest observable scales"

The new physics is understanding our Universe is a larger version of a polar jet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_jet).

'Cosmos may be curved, scientists say'
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/09/12/cosmos-may-be-curved-scientists-say/?intcmp=features

"Now cosmologists suggest these anomalies occur because the universe is not flat. Instead, these researchers propose the universe may be ever so slightly "open," curved in such a way that parallel lines, which never converge or diverge when traveling on a flat surface, will eventually diverge from one another, like on a saddle."

Our Universe is open because it is a larger version of a polar jet.

'Was the universe born spinning?'
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/46688

"The universe was born spinning and continues to do so around a preferred axis"

Our Universe spins around a preferred axis because it is a larger version of a polar jet.

'Mysterious Cosmic 'Dark Flow' Tracked Deeper into Universe'
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/releases/2010/10-023.html

"The clusters appear to be moving along a line extending from our solar system toward Centaurus/Hydra, but the direction of this motion is less certain. Evidence indicates that the clusters are headed outward along this path, away from Earth, but the team cannot yet rule out the opposite flow. "We detect motion along this axis, but right now our data cannot state as strongly as we'd like whether the clusters are coming or going," Kashlinsky said."

The clusters are headed along this path because our Universe is a larger version of a polar jet.

Our Universe is an ongoing process.

It's not the Big Bang; it's the Big Ongoing.

Dark energy is the evaporated matter (i.e. aether) which is continually being emitted into the Universal jet.

You closed your last post with a conviction you know the nature of reality when it comes to QM. You opened the above post with things you don't know in response to my questions about the greater universe. Your knowledge is incomplete in regard to the greater universe, its beginning and beyond the Big Ongoing, so I am not convinced it isn't incomplete in regard to your interpretation of QM, which is what I am saying about all interpretations that don't include hidden variables. No need to respond, just taking the opportunity for the last word, since you have gone into "repeat" mode .

 

[Farsight]

This is your thread so this will be my last post.

My father always said to me, John, always make sure you do what you said you were going to do. If you don't, people won't trust you, they won't believe in you, and they won't want to deal with you. That always stuck with me. And it has served me well.

 

[cav755]

My father always said to me, John, always make sure you do what you said you were going to do. If you don't, people won't trust you, they won't believe in you, and they won't want to deal with you. That always stuck with me. And it has served me well.

quantum_wave said, "(and you are welcome to reply if you change your mind)".

In a boat double slit experiment the boat always travels through a single slit and it is the boat's bow wave which passes through both.

In a double slit experiment the particle always travels through a single slit and it is the particle's associated aether displacement wave which passes through both.

 

[Farsight]

This is your thread so this will be my last post.

Make it so.

 

[cav755]

Make it so.

In a double slit experiment the particle always travels through a single slit and it is the particle's associated aether displacement wave which passes through both.

 

[Farsight]

Er, no. The particle goes through both slits. Because the particle is the "aether displacement wave". There isn't anything else there. Think seismic waves. There is no little billiard ball thing in the middle of a seismic wave.

 

[cav755]

Er, no. The particle goes through both slits. Because the particle is the "aether displacement wave". There isn't anything else there. Think seismic waves. There is no little billiard ball thing in the middle of a seismic wave.

You can think whatever you want. However, when you try and use de Broglie's double solution theory to support what you say you are completely missing the point.

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

"I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.”

The physical reality of waves AND particles.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity."

The particle, PRECISELY LOCATED IN SPACE AT EVERY INSTANT, may be likened in a first approximation TO A MOVING SINGULARITY.

Pilot-wave theory was derived from de Broglie's wave mechanics and double solution theory.

'New 'Double Slit' Experiment Skirts Uncertainty Principle'
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-slit-experiment-skirts-uncertainty-principle

"Intriguingly, the trajectories closely match those predicted by an unconventional interpretation of quantum mechanics known as pilot-wave theory, in which each particle has a well-defined trajectory that takes it through one slit while the associated wave passes through both slits."

The particle has a well-defined trajectory that takes it THROUGH ONE SLIT while the associated wave passes through both slits.

 

[quantum_wave]

You can think whatever you want. However, when you try and use de Broglie's double solution theory to support what you say you are completely missing the point.

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

"I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.”

The physical reality of waves AND particles.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity."

The particle, PRECISELY LOCATED IN SPACE AT EVERY INSTANT, may be likened in a first approximation TO A MOVING SINGULARITY.

Pilot-wave theory was derived from de Broglie's wave mechanics and double solution theory.

'New 'Double Slit' Experiment Skirts Uncertainty Principle'
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-slit-experiment-skirts-uncertainty-principle

"Intriguingly, the trajectories closely match those predicted by an unconventional interpretation of quantum mechanics known as pilot-wave theory, in which each particle has a well-defined trajectory that takes it through one slit while the associated wave passes through both slits."

The particle has a well-defined trajectory that takes it THROUGH ONE SLIT while the associated wave passes through both slits.

If that means that there is no superposition of states, and the particle with its individual states has location and momentum even when it is unobserved, then why are you saying it is not a hidden variables interpretation? It has "hidden variables", by definition, in that the states are not superimposed, they are just hidden. Tell me again, why do you differentiate it from the "hidden variables interpretations"?

 

[cav755]

If that means that there is no superposition of states, and the particle with its individual states has location and momentum even when it is unobserved, then why are you saying it is not a hidden variables interpretation? It has "hidden variables", by definition, in that the states are not superimposed, they are just hidden. Tell me again, why do you differentiate it from the "hidden variables interpretations"?

Bell's Theorem refutes the notion of hidden variables.

There are no such things as hidden variables.

Entanglement is, due to conservation of momentum, each of the pair being able to determine the position and momentum of the other.

Nothing is hidden.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Bell's Theorem refutes the notion of hidden variables.

There are no such things as hidden variables.

Entanglement is, due to conservation of momentum, each of the pair being able to determine the position and momentum of the other.

Nothing is hidden.

Jesus even posters are talking to themselves through their sock puppets, about crap which is illegal in the science threads. Hopefully the wrath of Khan will come raining fire and brimstone here. JamesR? Prometheus? Somebody?

 

[cav755]

Jesus even posters are talking to themselves through their sock puppets, about crap which is illegal in the science threads. Hopefully the wrath of Khan will come raining fire and brimstone here. JamesR? Prometheus? Somebody?

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

 

[quantum_wave]

Bell's Theorem refutes the notion of hidden variables.

I know that you are well enough read to have come across the fact that John Bell did not believe that his "no-hidden variables" theorems excluded the possibility that there could be a deeper level of order than the current consensus of Quantum Mechanics. My hobby-model is based on there being another level of order below that described in the standard model.

There are no such things as hidden variables.

And if there are hidden variables, they will be operating in a sub quantum realm, which is what the "foundational medium" is all about in my hobby-model.

Entanglement is, due to conservation of momentum, each of the pair being able to determine the position and momentum of the other.

Nothing is hidden.

Everything below our ability to observe is hidden. In my hidden variables model, the fact that particles interact based on information is due to an hypothesis that their history is embedded in the foundational medium. That information expands through the medium at the speed of light, and any information that a particle has access to is there from the history of the motion and location of all other particles because the motion and location are imprinted in the wave energy gradient of the foundational medium, so I say.

It should also be pointed out that I model particles as being composed of complex patterns of "standing" wave energy. A particle at rest has a finite precise amount of energy, measured in quantum increments, and any relative motion changes the energy contained in the particle relative to surrounding particles. That change is accomplished because the foundational medium has wave energy coming and going in all directions at all times, and motion in any direction changes the gradient that the particle experiences in the medium.

 

[cav755]

I know that you are well enough read to have come across the fact that John Bell did not believe that his "no-hidden variables" theorems excluded the possibility that there could not be a deeper level of order than the current consensus of Quantum Mechanics. My hobby-model is based on there being another level of order below that described in the standard model.
And if there are hidden variables, they will be operating in a sub quantum realm, which is what the "foundational medium" is all about in my hobby-model.

You don't need another level. You just have to correctly understand what entanglement means.