Is there a medium "in space", a medium "of space", neither, or both?

[cav755]

Lol, you make a good point. You can refer to QM as mainstream physics if you want, but the consensus within QM is the Copenhagen interpretation, in various forms, as I understand it. I would be the first to agree with you that, to me, the consensus in QM seems to want to keep us from ever believing in local reality. The Hidden Variables group of interpretations allow particles to be thought of as "real", in that they exist when no one is looking at them. My view is that the existence of a "medium of space", and the presence of particles composed of wave energy traversing that medium, is the foundation upon which a hidden variables interpretation can be built.

There are no such things as hidden variables.

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

 

[quantum_wave]

There are no such things as hidden variables.

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

That is certainly the consensus.

 

[cav755]

That is certainly the consensus.

That is the correct classical interpretation of entanglement.

 

[quantum_wave]

That is the correct classical interpretation of entanglement.

Yes, it is.

 

[cav755]

Yes, it is.

Which means there are no such things as hidden variables.

Bohmian mechanics is a hidden variable theory. It is incorrect.

de Broglie's wave mechanics and double solution theories are not hidden variable theories. They are correct.

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

“When in 1923-1924 I had my first ideas about Wave Mechanics I was looking for a truly concrete physical image, valid for all particles, of the wave and particle coexistence discovered by Albert Einstein in his "Theory of light quanta". I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.”

“any particle, even isolated, has to be imagined as in continuous “energetic contact” with a hidden medium”

The hidden medium of de Broglie wave mechanics is the aether. The “energetic contact” is the state of displacement of the aether.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity."

A particle is a moving singularity which has an associated aether displacement wave.

In a double slit experiment the particle travels a well defined path which takes it through one slit. The associated wave in the aether passes through both. As the aether wave exits the slits it creates wave interference. As the particle exits a single slit the direction it travels is altered by the wave interference. This is the wave piloting the particle of pilot-wave theory. Detecting the particle strongly exiting a single slit destroys the coherence between the particle and its associated wave in the aether and the particle continues on the trajectory it was traveling.

 

[brucep]

God, origin. You are so rude. On a scientific forum, one is expected to build a scientific case toward an accusation of identity. Accusing people willy-nilly leaves you as the bad guy.

It's obviously Mike Cavedon (or a plagiarist). It might be mpc755 (banned on 2011年10月07日 by James R). It might be gravitational_aether (banned on 2012年21月12日 by James R).

Compare: [post=3172421]post #24[/post] and [post=3172446]post #26[/post] to http://www.quora.com/Physics/What-is-gravity-made-of/answer/Mike-Cavedon/comment/3307249
Compare: [post=3172457]post #28[/post] and http://www.quora.com/Albert-Einstei...hen-he-said-it-was-curved/answer/Mike-Cavedon
Compare: [post=3172466]post #30[/post] (where it is not repetitive of post #24) and http://www.quora.com/Physics/Can-dark-matter-be-in-fact-ether/answer/Mike-Cavedon/comment/2746845
Compare: [post=3172539]post#33[/post] and http://www.quora.com/Theoretical-Ph...imensions/answer/Mike-Cavedon/comment/2852448

Likewise see mpc755 on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/user/mpc755
Likewise see ideal_fluid on Physics Forums: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=670758
Likewise see gravitational_aether on TOE Quest: http://www.toequest.com/forum/your-toe-theory/6579-aether-displacement-27.html

What's rude is spewing that braindead nonsense over and over and over and over again. I thought 'a cell' had woke up when he went with grav....._ether instead on some rearrangement of mpc and or 755.

 

[quantum_wave]

Which means there are no such things as hidden variables.

True, if the classical interpretation is right. I agree that you stated the definition of entanglement properly, I didn't agree that it is right; but what I think is pretty insignificant.

Bohmian mechanics is a hidden variable theory. It is incorrect.

de Broglie wave mechanics and double solution theories are not hidden variable theories. They are correct.

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

“When in 1923-1924 I had my first ideas about Wave Mechanics I was looking for a truly concrete physical image, valid for all particles, of the wave and particle coexistence discovered by Albert Einstein in his "Theory of light quanta". I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.”
“any particle, even isolated, has to be imagined as in continuous “energetic contact” with a hidden medium”

The hidden medium of de Broglie wave mechanics is the aether. The “energetic contact” is the state of displacement of the aether.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity."

A particle is a moving singularity which has an associated aether displacement wave.

In a double slit experiment the particle travels a well defined path which takes it through one slit. The associated wave in the aether passes through both. As the aether wave exits the slits it creates wave interference. As the particle exits a single slit the direction it travels is altered by the wave interference. This is the wave piloting the particle of pilot-wave theory. Detecting the particle strongly exiting a single slit destroys the coherence between the particle and its associated wave in the aether and the particle continues on the trajectory it was traveling.

The Hidden Variables interpretations are based on an assumption the various interpretations of QM are incomplete, and that there is an underlying level of reality, what I call the foundational level, or some kind of sub-quanta world that is as yet undetected.

 

[cav755]

The Hidden Variables interpretations are based on an assumption the various interpretations of QM are incomplete, and that there is underlying level of reality, what I call the foundational level, or some kind of sub-quanta world that is as yet undetected.

Hidden variables have to do with the EPR Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox) and were an original attempt at trying to explain entanglement. A newer, more correct explanation of entanglement is the one I put forth where entanglement is one of the downconverted pair being able to determine the state of its pair due to conservation of momentum.

This more correct explanation of entanglement makes hidden variables superfluous.

 

[quantum_wave]

Hidden variables have to do with the EPR Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox) and were an original attempt at trying to explain entanglement. A newer, more correct explanation of entanglement is the one I put forth where entanglement is one of the downconverted pair being able to determine the state of its pair due to conservation of momentum.

This more correct explanation of entanglement makes hidden variables superfluous.

With all of the various ways to interpret QM, I just say, have it your way. There are enough interpretations to satisfy everyone . I don't insist my choice is right, it is just the one I am most satisfied with for now.

 

[cav755]

With all of the various ways to interpret QM, I just say, have it your way. There are enough interpretations to satisfy everyone . I don't insist my choice is right, it is just the one I am most satisfied with for now.

The particle always detected entering, traveling through and exiting a single slit in a double slit experiment is evidence the particle always travels through a single slit.

de Broglie wave mechanics is the correct interpretation.

 

[quantum_wave]

There are no such things as hidden variables.

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

Agreed, two photons can be produced with opposite spin in various ways.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

The two particles each have a particular spin when they are entangled, but no one knows which one has up spin and which has down spin until one of them is observed.

When we observe one, then we know the spin of the other instantaneously, but if they had their particular spins from the moment of entanglement, the observation of one does not change the spin of either, so there is no need for FTL action at a distance.

 

[Nightshift]

Which means there are no such things as hidden variables.

Bohmian mechanics is a hidden variable theory. It is incorrect.

de Broglie wave mechanics and double solution theories are not hidden variable theories. They are correct.

Oh?

Really? In what way is the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics... ''incorrect?''

 

[Nightshift]

Agreed, two photons can be produced with opposite spin in various ways.

That's not a true objection to saying ''hidden variables don't exist.'' That's a statement about a fact we already know about, what we can't explain is how two entangles states are justly so over infinitely large states.

 

[Nightshift]

True, if the classical interpretation is right. I agree that you stated the definition of entanglement properly, I didn't agree that it is right; but what I think is pretty insignificant.
The Hidden Variables interpretations are based on an assumption the various interpretations of QM are incomplete, and that there is an underlying level of reality, what I call the foundational level, or some kind of sub-quanta world that is as yet undetected.

We may have actually detected anomalous effects of this sub-quantum activity. Physicist Brown has said that the funnily named ''space roar'' might be explainable by sub quantum activity. I have even wondered about this ''extra predicted energy'' which is predicted by quantum mechanics, but is in error with measurement by about $$10^{120}$$ magnitudes off. Could there be something even more fundamental? I ask why stop, the Greeks could never have properly imagine a subatomic particle, when they thought the atom was all that existed. Why should we be arrogant in the same way?

 

[quantum_wave]

Oh?

Really? In what way is the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics... ''incorrect?''

Hi Nightshift, please take a second and reply to the question in the OP. That is the basis of this discussion, and it helps to know your stand as you discuss the topic.

 

[quantum_wave]

That's not a true objection to saying ''hidden variables don't exist.'' That's a statement about a fact we already know about, ...

I know it isn't. You quoted me acknowledging what Cav755 said about entangled photons that have opposite spin.

what we can't explain is how two entangles states are justly so over infinitely large states.

I went on to say that I think the spin of each is established at the moment of entanglement and so:

The two particles each have a particular spin when they are entangled, but no one knows which one has up spin and which has down spin until one of them is observed.

When we observe one, then we know the spin of the other instantaneously, but if they had their particular spins from the moment of entanglement, the observation of one does not change the spin of either, so there is no need for FTL action at a distance.

 

[cav755]

Agreed, two photons can be produced with opposite spin in various ways.
The two particles each have a particular spin when they are entangled, but no one knows which one has up spin and which has down spin until one of them is observed.

When we observe one, then we know the spin of the other instantaneously, but if they had their particular spins from the moment of entanglement, the observation of one does not change the spin of either, so there is no need for FTL action at a distance.

They have their particular spins and due to conservation of momentum they are opposite. Entanglement is one of the pair having the information available to it that it can knows the position and momentum of the other.

 

[cav755]

Oh?

Really? In what way is the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics... ''incorrect?''

Bohm explanded on de Broglie wave mechanics.

Both Einstein and de Broglie were not fans of Bohmian mechanics which is what de Broglie-Bohm pilot-wave theory is.

Bohm had the notion of the radio waves piloting the air plane this is incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory#Hidden_variables

"De Broglie–Bohm theory is often referred to as a "hidden variable" theory."

de Broglie's double solution theory is not a hidden variable theory as it has both the physical wave which describes the particle's connections with its associated physical wave and also has the probabilistic wave-function of quantum mechanics.

There is also the notion that once you correctly understand entanglement there are no such things as hidden variables.

The Bohmian interpretation is incorrect because it is considered a hidden variable interpretation of quantum mechanics.

 

[cav755]

That's not a true objection to saying ''hidden variables don't exist.'' That's a statement about a fact we already know about, what we can't explain is how two entangles states are justly so over infinitely large states.

We can explain how two entangled states are justly so over infinitely large states.

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, they are created with opposite angular momentum.

As they are propagating with opposite polarization, they can determine their partner’s location and momentum based upon their own.

They are not physically or superlumanally connected.

They are entangled as they can determine each other’s state.

 

[Nightshift]

I know it isn't. You quoted me acknowledging what Cav755 said about entangled photons that have opposite spin. I went on to say that I think the spin of each is established at the moment of entanglement and so:

Ok, but that still isn't telling us how two systems are entangled, say, at a theoretically-random distance... of say $$10^{10}ly$$, where $$ly$$ denotes lightyears, could instantaneously reflect each other in a symmetry due to a collapse in their wave functions?

It's not so easy to escape the idea of hidden variables, especially when we are faced with a scenario which quantum physics so far fails to find a mechanical reason for it. It's almost akin to how maybe classical physicists felt when they where faced with quantum mechanics itself?