Is the universe eternal?

SetiAlpha6

SetiAlpha6

Come Let Us Reason Together
Valued Senior Member
Please let me emphasize my own personal, limited understanding, in this area of study but it seems to me like entropy would suggest that it is not. If the physical universe were eternal wouldn’t it have suffered a heat-death an eternity ago? Can someone help me out here?

It seems like the atheist wants to believe that it is eternal and the theist wants to believe that it was created, but what purely scientific basis is there really for saying either? How much of our own personal understanding is science faith, science fiction, or science fact? It seems to me like the science crowd is always asking the faith crowd to prove their beliefs when I am not so sure they can really scientifically prove some of their own beliefs. Don’t tell anyone, but I just have this funny feeling that no one really knows for sure.

What do you think?

Thanks!
 
The "science crowd" hasn't come to any conclusions. The universe appears to be expanding, from which we can deduce the very early universe was small, dense, and very hot. Wether this was the beginning or just a transitional point is impossible to tell.
 
I think I remember Godless posting links refuting the idea that the universe was expanding and that it began from a single spot. But hey, the other theory flew over my head, so dont ask me.
 
Something has to be eternal otherwise nothing could exist now.

Big Bang theory appears to be broken and I like Plasma Theory that doesn't require a start point.

If we are looking for origins we have a problem - If the universe had a begining then something must have started it. That hasn't solved our problem of origins since we now must ask where did the something that started the universe originate.

We have no reason right now to suspect the universe has not always existed.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
.. If the physical universe were eternal wouldn’t it have suffered a heat-death an eternity ago?
Click to expand...
since it still exists the "heat-death" is highly exagereted :D
It seems like the atheist wants to believe that it is eternal and the theist wants to believe that it was created, but what purely scientific basis is there really for saying either?
Click to expand...
atheist dont want to believe anything,we can only conclude from the physical evidence what transpires.
how could god (as theists claim)always exist and not the universe?
and we can see the universe but gods are nowhere to be found except in some fantasy tales
 
I agree that something must be eternal, but what? I don't pretend to know! How is the physical universe able to overcome entropy? Is there any scientific proof anywhere that something can really do this? Certainly this has been proven in some way. But how?

Thanks!
 
The definition of entropy is very specific and one such condition is the requirement for a closed system. An infinite universe is not a closed system.
 
If we are looking for origins we have a problem - If the universe had a begining then something must have started it. That hasn't solved our problem of origins since we now must ask where did the something that started the universe originate.
Click to expand...
The originator is an eternal God.
Convincing? I don't know!
 
Cris said:
The definition of entropy is very specific and one such condition is the requirement for a closed system. An infinite universe is not a closed system.
Click to expand...

Cris, is there any proof that the universe is infinite?
 
The being is nothing-everything and it has always existed...

What seems like "emptiness" to us is "matter" for those living there.
The evolution of the universe goes from spiritual to material...
Then the matter becomes "spiritual/emptiness" again...
Because it is all... nothing/illusion-everything/infinity.

SetiAlpha6 said:
Cris, is there any proof that the universe is infinite?
Click to expand...

"Common sense tells us that the universe must be infinite, for it is impossible to imagine an absolute boundary somewhere with no space beyond it. And since nothing can come from nothing, boundless space – which in theosophy means infinite consciousness-substance – must always have existed."
 
Saint said:
The originator is an eternal God.
Convincing? I don't know!
Click to expand...

That is one of the possibilities, Saint, but that is probably also impossible to prove. That could possibly provide an answer that is at least immune from the entropy problem of a physical universe. If there really is an entropy problem?

Thanks
 
The being is nothing-everything and it has always existed...

What seems like "emptiness" to us is "matter" for those living there.
The evolution of the universe goes from spiritual to material...
Then the matter becomes "spiritual/emptiness" again...
Because it is all... nothing/illusion-everything/infinity.
Click to expand...
what!?


as to the topic of the thread:
"Speculating, rationally or otherwise, upon the unknown falls to philosophy, not science." -Raithere
 
seti,

Cris, is there any proof that the universe is infinite?
Click to expand...
Not sure it is possible to prove that anything is infinite.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
How is the physical universe able to overcome entropy?
Click to expand...
The second law of thermodynamics, states that the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value. Unlike almost all other laws of physics, this associates thermodynamics with a definite arrow of time. However, for a universe of infinite size, which cannot be regarded as an isolated system, the second law does not apply.
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
Cris, is there any proof that the universe is infinite?
Click to expand...

there is a whole (universe, matter, illusion, god, whatever you believe). the whole is everything, there can be nothing outside it, otherwise it's not the whole, so the whole must be infinite. if the "whole" is not infinite, then there must be something outside which limits it from being infinite, so... that would not really be the whole.

nothing can be "proven", you can only make it sound logical.
 
Call me dense or whatever you wish, but I guess that from the bits and pieces of old information I have, I am still having a problem with entropy. I don’t get it! The universe might or might not be infinite but we really do not seem to know and there isn’t really even a consensus on this in the scientific community, is there?

Has the Big Bang theory been completely discarded as a working model yet? If not, I would think that, perhaps, the physical universe had a beginning in space/time at the Big Bang event and has been expanding ever since from that singularity. If space is correctly considered to be nothing (?) then it might appear that what we have is a finite amount of matter/energy expanding and even accelerating into an infinity of nothing. This would still seem like a closed system to me since I would expect that there, perhaps, would be no way to continually add to the finite matter/energy of the system from an infinity of nothing. Where would the additional energy come from to continually add to the system? From an infinity of nothing?

Thanks!
 
SetiAlpha6 said:
Please let me emphasize my own personal, limited understanding, in this area of study but it seems to me like entropy would suggest that it is not. If the physical universe were eternal wouldn’t it have suffered a heat-death an eternity ago? Can someone help me out here?

It seems like the atheist wants to believe that it is eternal and the theist wants to believe that it was created, but what purely scientific basis is there really for saying either? How much of our own personal understanding is science faith, science fiction, or science fact? It seems to me like the science crowd is always asking the faith crowd to prove their beliefs when I am not so sure they can really scientifically prove some of their own beliefs. Don’t tell anyone, but I just have this funny feeling that no one really knows for sure.

What do you think?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

There is also the option that the universe is eternal and created by god, that is to say that the material creation is an eternal accompanying quality of god, just as heat is an accompanying quality of fire (If you had an eternal fire you would also have eternal heat).

The changes the universe goes through, from a more manifest to an unmanifest state is similar to the contrast of seasons like spring and winter.

As to verifying it by our direct sense perception or empirical processes that would be impossible, at least according to the vedas, since the living entity is in an inferior position to the total cosmic manifestation (no matter what a living entity has in the name of consciousness, it is insufficient to draw up the complete limits of the material manifestation with it) - god however has the ability to oversee the material creation since he is superior to it. Since entropy doesn't affect god, entropy doesn't affect his emmanating energies, such as the material creation - the problem with accepting the eternal origins of the universe without consciousness is that it doesn't explain how consciousness develops. It doesn't explain how matter can think for itself
 
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