Is religion mostly a form of lies?

B

birch

Valued Senior Member
why is it acceptable for adults to push their beliefs and made-up conjectures as facts if it's guised as religion?

don't we teach children that it's not right to tell stories and pass them off as facts/truths?

why is it that there is leniency for adults to get away with this?

why is that they are allowed to use every excuse, evasion, and make-up the most absurd arguments to push their beliefs as legitimate?

why are others demonized when they criticize it as they refuse or don't have to abide by any semblance of actual honesty just because it's religion? i think it's a major cop-out. it's not even moral.

there are all kinds of different schools of thought and speculation and they know that that's what it is and there are many people who partake of that of their own volition and interest.

for instance; reincarnation, spirits, ufo's, paranormal phenomenon, philosophy, stories, ethics, humanism, auras, astral projection, other worlds hypothesis, time travel etc.

there is a multitude of fascinating ideas and possiblities and they all know their place and have no problem co-existing because of it. they know it's not science. they know it's not a case of aliens vs god etc. they know they don't need to be demanded to be taken as fact by everyone nor do they need to make everyone aware of it. it's just out there for those who are interested in these subjects and speculations.

why is religion given special treatment and therefore expecting special treatment?
 
Its either the states stories they will hear and be indoctrinated into or religious stories, not much of a chance to have an open mind either way it would seem to me.
 
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there are all kinds of stories in books, movies and television with a lot of human elements that we can recognize but we know they are stories. they don't pass themselves off as non-fiction. still, it enriches our lives and broadens our minds.
 
It's because the parents probably believe it. Is it a lie if you think it's true?

I was lucky. I remember asking my mother (when I was around age 6) "How do we know there is a God?" She told me, "It's something you will have to decide for yourself. Many people search for that answer their entire life."

A few years later, she had me watch Inherit The Wind... Still one of my favorite movies.
 
Religion is given no special treatment. As the Qu'ran states- children are born with a perfect knowledge of a one true God- it is man who corrupts it with his words and beliefs. I am an ex-catholic and by no means a Muslim, but I believe in this principle and have raised my son with this belief: that he knows as much about God as I do. Of course I guide him along the path to spiritualism but the road he takes is his own.

My son is 14 and I can't wait for him to be old enough to hold a lengthy conversation with me about God, cause I have lots to say but even more to learn from him.
 
birch said:
why is it acceptable for adults to push their beliefs and made-up conjectures as facts if it's guised as religion?
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for the same reason that it is acceptable for you to push your belief that religion is composed solely of made up conjecture I guess
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It's because the parents probably believe it. Is it a lie if you think it's true?
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people just lose their marbles when something is shelved under religion.

i know the story of winnie the pooh is fiction.

it doesn't matter if you believe it to be true. it's fiction!
 
for the same reason that it is acceptable for you to push your belief that religion is composed solely of made up conjecture I guess
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i didn't say everything in the bible is made up but a hell of a lot of it is pushed as if it's a fact.

no other subject would get that type of leniency. pfft

Religion is given no special treatment.
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riiight.
 
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birch said:
why is it acceptable for adults to push their beliefs and made-up conjectures as facts if it's guised as religion?
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People push their beliefs and made-up conjectures as facts when they aren't guised as religion, so it shouldn't be unexpected that they are going to do it in the religious realm as well.

don't we teach children that it's not right to tell stories and pass them off as facts/truths?
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I don't think that religious people have personally made up the stories that they believe. People absorb these mythological stories as part of their societal inheritance and many grasp onto them for various psychological reasons. People's ethical sensibilities, artistic tastes, clothing styles, and political allegiances aren't really all that different.

why is that they are allowed to use every excuse, evasion, and make-up the most absurd arguments to push their beliefs as legitimate?
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Most people's everyday common-sense beliefs aren't scientifically or philosophically justified. Religious beliefs are more cosmic in nature and are definitely emotionally evocative, so they are probably even less likely to have good justifications. Since religious people are often members of social groups in which those beliefs are presupposed, it's typically religious disagreement that requires justification since it's what the surrounding people are going to be disagreeing with.
 
birch said:
why is it acceptable for adults to push their beliefs and made-up conjectures as facts if it's guised as religion? don't we teach children that it's not right to tell stories and pass them off as facts/truths?
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You make the same mistake that the religious fundamentalists do. You believe everything must be either true or false.

You overlook the concept of metaphor. Every religion is nothing more or less than a collection of metaphors. Metaphors are not literally true, because they are merely stories. Yet they are also not quite false, since the things they teach us usually turn out to be valid.

Every religion, from the ancient polytheistic faiths to Rasta and the other modern spiritualities, tells us stories about people who have tried to be good to each other, to contribute to the welfare of their tribe or their civilization. Some succeeded, some failed, some lost their bearings and ended up having a negative impact. It doesn't matter whether any of these stories are literally true. What matters is what they teach us.

There are wonderful, insightful, inspiring passages in novels, in plays, in song lyrics, in movies and on TV shows. We don't think any of these stories are true, but that doesn't mean that their lessons are not true.

In the past all but a tiny fraction of the population were completely illiterate, had no formal education, and had very limited contact with the world beyond their village. They didn't have the context to critically examine the legends that made up their religions and figure out that they couldn't possibly be accounts of actual historical events. But those stories helped them in their effort to be good people.

Today of course we have that context and it's absurdly easy to figure out that the more sensational parts of all the world's holy books are simply fairytales--if you want to. But those stories have been handed down for hundreds, even thousands of years and they become part of a culture. Who wants to be the first to say, "Hey, this is just a collection of metaphors, isn't it?"

Some of us do want to do that, and we tend to congregate and find each other in places like SciForums. The ones who don't want that don't welcome our attendance in their churches.

We'd probably be surprised to find out how many religious people, deep down inside, are quite aware of the fact that their gospels are only metaphors. After all, how many successful scientists are also Christians, Muslims and Jews? But for them, life is more comfortable if they don't think about that too often, especially on Sunday morning.

We call it cognitive dissonance, they call it faith. Tomayto, tomahto.

Yes, you've all read my diatribes against religion. But it isn't the text in their holy books I object to. It's the culture of intolerance, hatred and violence. And I'm not sure that the text begets the evil. It's something else about the nature of religion that does that. If we concentrate too much on the obvious ridiculousness of the dogma, I think we'll be distracted from finding the real cause, whatever it is, of the evil that is perpetrated in the name of religion.
 
i understand that they are metaphors but why i started the thread is these stories are taken literally to be true or worse purported to be which ends up missing the message as well as engendering a faulty, self-deceiving (thus deceiving others or brainwashing children) thinking or reasoning process. for instance, that mary was impregnated by god, that god was a burning bush who spoke to moses, that he parted the red sea etc.

i don't think it's healthy as it's not healthy for an adult to believe santa claus is real or the tooth fairy or the story of cinderella. of course they all have meaninful symbolism and people can still get value from it. even most childen know they aren't actually real but they still can garner the message from it.
 
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birch said:
i understand that they are metaphors but why i started the thread is these stories are taken literally to be true or worse purported to be . . . .
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Don't you think there might be a little bit of wink-wink, nudge-nudge going on when people teach those stories to children? That it's a rite of passage to wake up one day and realize that the whole story of Jesus's life is just science fiction? Just like it was when you figured out the truth about Santa Claus?
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Don't you think there might be a little bit of wink-wink, nudge-nudge going on when people teach those stories to children? That it's a rite of passage to wake up one day and realize that the whole story of Jesus's life is just science fiction? Just like it was when you figured out the truth about Santa Claus?
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it doesn't seem that way as those who told me still believe it literally and would continue to brainwash me if they could.

but yes, i would hate for anyone's sense of deeper meaning, what they just "know" to be sacred (but may be hard to explain without sounding dreamy) or what is meaningful on a non-physical level to be destroyed or construed as unreal which is perceived through one's unique and fluid totality of emotions, spirit, mind, soul and possibly unknown elements. life is expansive. i think everyone is special and unique. i and i don't think most people have a problem with religion as long as they are kept in check as it's a 'faith' (as they seem to keep needing that reminder especially for christianity/islam). also, there are other religions/philosophies to also offset them overriding other schools of thought, meaning they can trample on what is just as sacred and valid of another intentionally or unintentionally. what a horrible and narrow world if it were just those two religions taking over.

ironicly, polytheism just by it's nature tends to be the best as it tends to validate all the different spiritual revelations. also, they don't seem to have a problem just being a faith as it has meaning, and relevance just as that as well.
 
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birch said:
ironically, polytheism just by its nature tends to be the best as it tends to validate all the different spiritual revelations. also, they don't seem to have a problem just being a faith as it has meaning, and relevance just as that as well.
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Jung tells us that polytheism is a much more useful model of the human spirit. He finds our programming to be organized so that inside each of us there really is a Hunter, a Lover, a Warrior, a Healer--the 23 gods and goddesses (if I have that number right) that appear consistently in all of the traditional polytheistic religions once you sort them out.

The dynamics among them--which one is dominant in your personality or mine, which one is called upon to step up and handle the problems of a particular day or an endeavor in your life, which one is the guiding motif in the culture of a nation or a political movement--are mirrored in the ancient myths of Greece, Egypt, India, the Olmecs, the Polynesians, the Vikings, all the way up to the plots of Shakespeare's plays and today's soap operas. "Star Wars" with its "force" and its "dark side" assures us that those archetypes, as Jung calls them, will still be inside us in the future. These stories can help us understand the things we and others do.

The problem with monotheism is that it compresses that rich, useful model of the human spirit into a pathetic one-dimensional spectrum, on which everything is squashed onto a linear scale between "good" and "evil." Judaism, Christianity and Islam are virtually incapable of accommodating compromise and situational ethics, much less the basic human truth that even though we're all the same, we're also all different.

The "Golden Rule" itself is a warning of this fact: we should be doing unto others as they would have us do to them, not as we would have them do to us. If a Buddhist protester is on fire, do not put it out!
 
Jung tells us that polytheism is a much more useful model of the human spirit.
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i agree, it's much better. what a shame that a much better understanding of the human (soul) as well as one that is more truly respectful and validates the myriad of unique and complexity that exists is actually is not as popular. but it's real value is it's existence doesn't allow or contradicts the supremacism of a singular religion. it's just less prejudiced.

though, i think in the "very" distant future, that religion will fall by the wayside eventually. by then, it may not be needed as in taken seriously as some literal fact hopefully. for now, it may be needed by some until a time comes that more knowledge of the universe would make it unnecessary to hold onto.
 
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birch said:
i understand that they are metaphors but why i started the thread is these stories are taken literally to be true or worse purported to be which ends up missing the message as well as engendering a faulty, self-deceiving (thus deceiving others or brainwashing children) thinking or reasoning process. for instance, that mary was impregnated by god, that god was a burning bush who spoke to moses, that he parted the red sea etc.

i don't think it's healthy as it's not healthy for an adult to believe santa claus is real or the tooth fairy or the story of cinderella. of course they all have meaninful symbolism and people can still get value from it. even most childen know they aren't actually real but they still can garner the message from it.
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And if they were truly treated as metaphors then they bible would be classed with Aesops Fables etc. It's not.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Don't you think there might be a little bit of wink-wink, nudge-nudge going on when people teach those stories to children? That it's a rite of passage to wake up one day and realize that the whole story of Jesus's life is just science fiction? Just like it was when you figured out the truth about Santa Claus?
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No, not at all. It is presented treated and maintained as complete and utter TRUTH.

Do you live in the U.S.? or elsewhere?
 
Kennyc said:
And if they were truly treated as metaphors then they bible would be classed with Aesops Fables etc. It's not.
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i agree that is a problem but it seems that the problem is many, many people don't understand morals or sanctity of life without a belief that god is actually a real entity (entity even evokes a sense of the physical and concrete) and there will be condemnation or consequences.

i guess it's a catch-22. for NOW.
 
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