is modern christianity based on paganism?

[Knife]

i would like someone to provide an intelligent response, but of course i would like to see the repsonse of people like vincent (the christian extremist) as well.

as far as i know the following is historical fact, using western references only:

the emporer constantine of rome was a pagan high preist. he was the one who adopted christianity as the official roman religion. he also brought the famous nicaean creed (discussed at length elsewhere in this forum). prior to christianity the official religion of rome was sun worship.

he combined christianity with pagan rituals, symbols, dates (sun calender). the origin of altars, communion, the miter are all found in pagan religions. the god, mithras, was born on december 25th, so was osiris. the emporer even changed the holy day to "sun"day. some say this was to compete and rival with pagan religions of the time (britannica.com) at the council of nicaea, the dates for easter and even the divinity, were voted on!

he also tolerated pagan rituals and even encouraged the imperail cult (columbia encyclopedia, 6th ed. 2001). he frequently wavered between Sol (one of the planetary gods)and Christ. for some time his religious policy was devised so as to allow the coexistence of both religions (brittanica.com). the church tolerated the cult of the emperor under many forms. it was permitted to speak of the divinity of the emperor, of the sacred palace, the sacred chamber and of the altar of the emperor, without being considered on this account an idolater . from this point of view constantine's religious change was relatively trifling; it consisted of little more than the renunciation of a formality. for what his predecessors had aimed to attain by the use of all their authority and at the cost of incessant bloodshed, was in truth only the recognition of their own divinity; constantine gained this end, though he renounced the offering of sacrifices to himself. (Catholic Encyclopedia)

the funny thing about all of this is that he wasnt baptized until 336 or 337 about the time of his death. history has documented that this was common, as then he would not be bound by the laws (brittanica.com). wouldnt this be hypocracy? other historians claim his loyalty to christianity prior to his baptism was purely for selfish reasons and with hidden agendas, otherwise how could a christian kill his wife and child? an emporer at that too!

i am not disputing the basics of the chritian doctrine, but i find it strange that the church would adopt so many pagan ideaolgies. is there a reason for this?

 

[Leo Volont]

...how could a christian kill his wife and child? an emporer at that too!

....i find it strange that the church would adopt so many pagan ideaolgies. is there a reason for this?

The Heir to the Throne of Constantine was a son by a previous marriage. His Wife whose own child was second in line to the throne, had the First Born Son ********. Under the circumstances, I just do not see where Constantine had any legal leeway. Justice demanded that forcibly put down what amounted to a Treasonous Palace Coup. Not even a Saint, put in similar circumstances would have behaved any differently.

As to Christianity not being Correct unless it were to reject all Previous Religion, I just do not see the logic. Why should we assume that Every Detail of Every Non-Christian Religion must be entirely False?

In my own Post I offer the hypothesis that Religion is true in proportion as it is in tune with the Psychological Symbols and Archetypes. Christianity could not possibly depart entirely from these Inner Truths without thereby becoming completely sterile, in the Spiritual sense.

 

[Knife]

His Wife whose own child was second in line to the throne, had the First Born Son ********.

i did not know that.

Not even a Saint, put in similar circumstances would have behaved any differently.

agreed. man can do some funny things under pressure.

As to Christianity not being Correct unless it were to reject all Previous Religion, I just do not see the logic. Why should we assume that Every Detail of Every Non-Christian Religion must be entirely False?

i did not mean it that sense. if a previous religion has good characteristics, then of course carry them on and encourage them. i do not believe that any religion is all, 100% bad. just because they do not make sense to me, doesnt mean it is bad. but changing the sabbath day, for example? or the date of the birth of christ? i see these to be significant changes to suit/accomodate pagan beliefs. going out on a limb here.....but could it be that christianty was threatened for some reason? or was it done to make it more welcoming to others in its' infancy?

In my own Post I offer the hypothesis that Religion is true in proportion as it is in tune with the Psychological Symbols and Archetypes. Christianity could not possibly depart entirely from these Inner Truths without thereby becoming completely sterile, in the Spiritual sense.

good point.

thanks leo.

 

[very proud muslim]

I USED TO BE A VERY PROUD MUSLIM
BUT AFTER READING VINCENTS MANY HARD HITTING FACTS ABOUT ISLAM
I AM BECOMING ASHAMED TO BE A MUSLIM

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH VINCENT
AND SAY ISLAM IS GOING THROUGH A CRISIS WE ARE TURNING OUR RELIGION INTO A BARBARIC RELIGOUS CULT

I SAY TO YOU MY MUSLIM BROTHERS KNIFE AND SURRENDER AND PREACHER AND 786
VINCENT HAS GIVEN US A OLIVE BRANCH TO JOIN HIS FLOCK
LETS JOIN HANDS WITH VINCENT AND EMBRACE HIS CATHOLIC RELIGION

KNIFE, SURRENDER MY BROTHERS IT IS TIME TO SHED OUR HATRED OF THE WEST AND EMBRACE THE WEST

KNIFE STOP THIS FUTILE VENDETTA AGAINST VINCENT, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH
AND OUT OF YOUR MIND TOO, BUT THATS ANOTHER MATTER AND ANOTHER TOPIC TO START A THREAD ON.

Muhammad IS AND WAS A MALE CHAUVINIST
I NOW DENOUNCE HIM

JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PROPHET

SHUKRAN MY MUSLIM BROTHERS

JESUS FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS
AND WORSHIPPING FALSE GODS AND PROPHETS

JESUS, VINCENT HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT
AND THE WAY TO YOU HE IS A TRUE PROPHET IN THE MAKING

 

[surenderer]

I USED TO BE A VERY PROUD MUSLIM
BUT AFTER READING VINCENTS MANY HARD HITTING FACTS ABOUT ISLAM
I AM BECOMING ASHAMED TO BE A MUSLIM

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH VINCENT
AND SAY ISLAM IS GOING THROUGH A CRISIS WE ARE TURNING OUR RELIGION INTO A BARBARIC RELIGOUS CULT

I SAY TO YOU MY MUSLIM BROTHERS KNIFE AND SURRENDER AND PREACHER AND 786
VINCENT HAS GIVEN US A OLIVE BRANCH TO JOIN HIS FLOCK
LETS JOIN HANDS WITH VINCENT AND EMBRACE HIS CATHOLIC RELIGION

KNIFE, SURRENDER MY BROTHERS IT IS TIME TO SHED OUR HATRED OF THE WEST AND EMBRACE THE WEST

KNIFE STOP THIS FUTILE VENDETTA AGAINST VINCENT, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH
AND OUT OF YOUR MIND TOO, BUT THATS ANOTHER MATTER AND ANOTHER TOPIC TO START A THREAD ON.

Muhammad IS AND WAS A MALE CHAUVINIST
I NOW DENOUNCE HIM

JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PROPHET

SHUKRAN MY MUSLIM BROTHERS

JESUS FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS
AND WORSHIPPING FALSE GODS AND PROPHETS

JESUS, VINCENT HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT
AND THE WAY TO YOU HE IS A TRUE PROPHET IN THE MAKING

He cant even figure to get rid of the CAPS before he posts.......nice try Vinnie....and you claim me and Knife are the same people....sheesh

 

[-=T=-]

Of course, Constantine was first and foremost a politician. The implementation of his ideas about religion ("Opiate for the masses"- significantly predating Marx []) worked to his supreme advantage-- the results of which are still being felt to this day.

Anyone can create a religion. As evidenced by: Paul (Saul) of Tarsus, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Taze Russell, et. al.

 

[Leo Volont]

i did not know that.


agreed. man can do some funny things under pressure.


i did not mean it that sense. if a previous religion has good characteristics, then of course carry them on and encourage them. i do not believe that any religion is all, 100% bad. just because they do not make sense to me, doesnt mean it is bad. but changing the sabbath day, for example? or the date of the birth of christ? i see these to be significant changes to suit/accomodate pagan beliefs. going out on a limb here.....but could it be that christianty was threatened for some reason? or was it done to make it more welcoming to others in its' infancy?


good point.

thanks leo.

The Spread of Catholicism in Europe consisted not in the defeat or the overwhelming of the Pagan Temples and Congregations, but in their willing Consecrations of them over to the Blessed Virgin. There are myriads of Stories of Our Lady appearing in Apparition to Pagan Worshippers and asking them to Re-Consecrate their Temples and Shrines over to Her. In large part, this is why the Character of Catholicism was to radically change from the tone that Paul set forth, and which the Bishops still tried to assert from time to time. If it were not for this Supernatural Marian Influence, Catholicism would have been no different from Protestantism, WHICH DOES literally follow That Moron Antichrist Paul.

And we should be glad that Catholicism gave us the Holy Sacrament on the First Day of the Week, while still holding the Sabbath on the Last Day of the Week. Imagine how much harder to endure Life would be if we did not have a TWO DAY WEEKEND. So, drop on your knees and thank the Blessed Virgin that you get Sunday off and do not have to work 48 Hour Weeks.

 

[Leo Volont]

I USED TO BE A VERY PROUD MUSLIM
BUT AFTER READING VINCENTS MANY HARD HITTING FACTS ABOUT ISLAM
I AM BECOMING ASHAMED TO BE A MUSLIM

But you are making the rest of us ashamed that we are the same nationality, or speak the same language, or are even of the same species as you. Please tell us you are a Monkey... a Proud Ex-Muslim Ape of Somekind. It would simply be too humiliating for the rest of us if you were human.

 

[Knife]

I USED TO BE A VERY PROUD MUSLIM
BUT AFTER READING VINCENTS MANY HARD HITTING FACTS ABOUT ISLAM
I AM BECOMING ASHAMED TO BE A MUSLIM

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH VINCENT
AND SAY ISLAM IS GOING THROUGH A CRISIS WE ARE TURNING OUR RELIGION INTO A BARBARIC RELIGOUS CULT

I SAY TO YOU MY MUSLIM BROTHERS KNIFE AND SURRENDER AND PREACHER AND 786
VINCENT HAS GIVEN US A OLIVE BRANCH TO JOIN HIS FLOCK
LETS JOIN HANDS WITH VINCENT AND EMBRACE HIS CATHOLIC RELIGION

KNIFE, SURRENDER MY BROTHERS IT IS TIME TO SHED OUR HATRED OF THE WEST AND EMBRACE THE WEST

KNIFE STOP THIS FUTILE VENDETTA AGAINST VINCENT, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH
AND OUT OF YOUR MIND TOO, BUT THATS ANOTHER MATTER AND ANOTHER TOPIC TO START A THREAD ON.

Muhammad IS AND WAS A MALE CHAUVINIST
I NOW DENOUNCE HIM

JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PROPHET

SHUKRAN MY MUSLIM BROTHERS

JESUS FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS
AND WORSHIPPING FALSE GODS AND PROPHETS

JESUS, VINCENT HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT
AND THE WAY TO YOU HE IS A TRUE PROPHET IN THE MAKING

as per your understanding of it, vincent , this is "taqiyah" at its' best!

JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PROPHET

is this your new belief?

 

[Jenyar]

but changing the sabbath day, for example? or the date of the birth of christ? i see these to be significant changes to suit/accomodate pagan beliefs. going out on a limb here.....but could it be that christianty was threatened for some reason? or was it done to make it more welcoming to others in its' infancy?

I think you're under a few illusions. The sabbath stayed Saturday, but what the early Christians celebrated wasn't the "day of rest", but the "day of the Lord" - on the first day of the week, indicated new birth, new life, and resurrection. However, which day you considered ritually holy didn't matter, because ever day was redeemed. Ritual wasn't as necessary and didn't play the same role it had before. It had become a celebration of effect, not an agent of effect.

That's also why Christians had the freedom to distinguish their rituals from pagan feasts, but could also assimilate them freely. They knew the holiday itself wasn't the celebration. They weren't threatened, but since many new believers used to be pagan (gentile), they held alternative feasts. It became a "then" and "now" in their lives. Nobody knew exactly which day Christ was born, and 25 December was as good a date as any.

"The real question that must be addressed is, 'What was the church's intent in choosing December 25 for the celebration of Christmas in the first place?' The answer may surprise you! The early church chose this date to point to the triumph that Christ's birth represented over the pagan traditions of the Roman Empire. In other words, the church was not endorsing a pagan ceremony but establishing a rival celebration. Today the world has all but forgotten the pagan gods of Rome. But at least a billion people on planet Earth celebrate the Christ of Christmas." - Hanegraaff, Hank "Is Christmas Christian?" The Christian Research Newsletter, Volume 6: Number 5, (c)1993 Christian Research Institute​

I know of many Christians who don't celebrate Christmas or Easter anymore, and go to church on Saturdays, in reaction to the way they have become secularized and empty rituals. Reaction against reaction, and so it goes, but the intent is always to preserve the meaning of meanings: what Christ came to do. That why Paul says: "One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5).

 

[okinrus]

Constantine did not change the sabath. It's recorded by Justin Marytr that Christians worshiped on Sunday. Constantine had nothing to do with this.

Christians also don't really attach any meaning to Dec. 25 in particular, but that it was chosen so that all the Christians celebrate Christ's birth on the same date.

 

[Halcyon]

To answer the question this thread was created to answer; No. You've already established that Christianity was practiced prior to Constantin's meddling. There are pagan influences that can be found in certain rituals/celebrations, yes, but the religion itself existed prior to these influences, so it cannot be said to be based on them, which was the question.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

okinrus: Christians also don't really attach any meaning to Dec. 25 in particular, but that it was chosen so that all the Christians celebrate Christ's birth on the same date.
*************
M*W: okinrus, you're down-playing the importance of December 25th as Jesus' birthday celebration. I bet you've attended many midnight masses to celebrate Jesus' birth! I know I had done it in the past. But we must not forget those 16 other dying demigod saviors who were also born on December 25th. I've listed nine of them here:

Krishna
Mithra
Horus
Buddha
Beddou (Fot)
Quetzacoatl
Hercules
Attis
Tammuz

And what more miraculous could all these gods have in common with Jesus? They, too, were all born of virgin mothers! Here's the website:

http://www.essenechristianfaith-netfirms.com/no3b_dec25_birth_sun_gods.htm

Happy Holidays!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: I see that the website didn't appear as written: It is:

http://www.essenechristianfaith-netfirms.com/no3b_dec25_birth_sun_gods.htm

I hope it works this time!

 

[Leo Volont]

okinrus: Christians also don't really attach any meaning to Dec. 25 in particular, but that it was chosen so that all the Christians celebrate Christ's birth on the same date.
*************
M*W: okinrus, you're down-playing the importance of December 25th as Jesus' birthday celebration. I bet you've attended many midnight masses to celebrate Jesus' birth! I know I had done it in the past. But we must not forget those 16 other dying demigod saviors who were also born on December 25th. I've listed nine of them here:

Krishna
Mithra
Horus
Buddha
Beddou (Fot)
Quetzacoatl
Hercules
Attis
Tammuz

And what more miraculous could all these gods have in common with Jesus? They, too, were all born of virgin mothers! Here's the website:

http://www.essenechristianfaith-netfirms.com/no3b_dec25_birth_sun_gods.htm

Happy Holidays!

Cool.

It is said that Quetzacoatl prophesized the Apparition of the Blessed Virgin, and that She would appear on the very same Mountain Top where She did indeed appear as Our Lady of Guadalupe -- leaving that Miraculous Portrait of Herself as Proof. 10 Million Souls converted to Catholicism as the Blessed Virgin as able to provide a Bridge between the Old Religion and the New. If the 25th of December was another point of commonality, then all the better.

 

[Halcyon]

Oh Jesus Christ, Woman. You're still on that kick? What ever happened to the formal declaration of challenge I gave you to come up with ANY supporting evidence whatsoever Mithra being born of a virgin. Even Buddha's there on your list, and it's pretty evident from Buddhist texts that Maya was NOT a virgin when giving birth to him. Quit taking other people's word for these things and do some research yourself. Realize what a mistake you're making. jesus.

 

[philocrazy]

very proud muslim
------------------------
I USED TO BE A VERY PROUD MUSLIM
BUT AFTER READING VINCENTS MANY HARD HITTING FACTS ABOUT ISLAM
I AM BECOMING ASHAMED TO BE A MUSLIM

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH VINCENT
AND SAY ISLAM IS GOING THROUGH A CRISIS WE ARE TURNING OUR RELIGION INTO A BARBARIC RELIGOUS CULT

I SAY TO YOU MY MUSLIM BROTHERS KNIFE AND SURRENDER AND PREACHER AND 786
VINCENT HAS GIVEN US A OLIVE BRANCH TO JOIN HIS FLOCK
LETS JOIN HANDS WITH VINCENT AND EMBRACE HIS CATHOLIC RELIGION

KNIFE, SURRENDER MY BROTHERS IT IS TIME TO SHED OUR HATRED OF THE WEST AND EMBRACE THE WEST

KNIFE STOP THIS FUTILE VENDETTA AGAINST VINCENT, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH
AND OUT OF YOUR MIND TOO, BUT THATS ANOTHER MATTER AND ANOTHER TOPIC TO START A THREAD ON.

Muhammad IS AND WAS A MALE CHAUVINIST
I NOW DENOUNCE HIM

JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE PROPHET

SHUKRAN MY MUSLIM BROTHERS

JESUS FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS
AND WORSHIPPING FALSE GODS AND PROPHETS

JESUS, VINCENT HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT
AND THE WAY TO YOU HE IS A TRUE PROPHET IN THE MAKING
----------------------------------------------------------------
Vincent28uk is a "very proud muslim" now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
let vincent28uk speak why has he been banned?
im gona miss the news,unban him


Philosopher Philocrazy

 

[Leo Volont]

Oh Jesus Christ, Woman. You're still on that kick? What ever happened to the formal declaration of challenge I gave you to come up with ANY supporting evidence whatsoever Mithra being born of a virgin. Even Buddha's there on your list, and it's pretty evident from Buddhist texts that Maya was NOT a virgin when giving birth to him. Quit taking other people's word for these things and do some research yourself. Realize what a mistake you're making. jesus.

Last week somebody brought up the notion of the Astral World -- where the Objective Material World is mixed together with elements of the Subjective. Or, if you prefer, the Spiritual and the Material can sometimes overlap.

In the case of all of these Spiritual Leaders and Avatars, we may have the Influence of a Heaven Goddess, who, after their Worldly Carreers, is very much alive in the Spiritual World claiming to all the Adherents of these Religions that She is the Virgin Mother of their Chosen Messiah. Would it really need to be materially true? But if in a Real Spiritual Journey... a genuine Religious Vision... the Supreme Heavenly Goddess were to appear to you and say that She was Mithas's Virgin Mother, or the Virgin Mother of Christ, then how possibly could you wish to argue the point. If She says it, then it is True, whatever may have happened on the purely material plane.

 

[Halcyon]

:m: :m:

So Leo....had any of those visions of which you speak lately? I don't even know if I want to touch that one...

 

[Leo Volont]

:m: :m:

So Leo....had any of those visions of which you speak lately? I don't even know if I want to touch that one...

A few months ago I had a momentary waking Vision of Our Lady of Grace up on the Summit of a mountain, against a sky of grey clouds, and a beam of white light was emanating from her upper chest -- below the neck but above the region of the heart (I later decided it is just where Catholics habitually cross themselves).

Just a week or so ago I had a dream in which I said the entire "Hail Mary" prayer and was wisked up to Her Throne Room where I was introduced to two Saints who had written Philosphy Books. I was given the books and told to bring them down to a Young doctor of Philosophy, presently living. I suppose I seemed like a Character in one of his Dreams, giving him those Books.

The interesting thing in that dream was that, once outside of Our Lady's Throne Room, an Angel taught me a more efficient method of Spiritual Travel. Before flying off, one should become perfectly still, even if for just a fraction of a moment, and then one instantly transports in a blur to where one wishes to be. You might think that flying and levitating would be fun, and so no trouble, but the thing about traveling about in the Spiritual World is that it takes both Time and a sort of Spiritual Energy, which are both available only in limited quantities.