is it only me,or

Mani

Registered Member
Is it only me, or are there other people who find that a certaint percentage of Skeptics are pseudo-Skeptics?
Very often when they do a rubutal or a critique of what they call
" crappot theories" or "Pseudo science" they often use techniques which isn't better than intellectual fascism.

They very often attack people who don't follow their view and accuse them of relying on very poor scientific evidence, or of not being a true scientist.
Yet they do the same thing!

This post is probably going to create some heated debate,
but I really needed to get this off of my chest.

P.S. If there are any spelling mistakes than please forgive
me, as haven't writed in English for ages.
 
It is an inevitable opposition. The Skeptics do their job and may help to bring those theories/facts forward which actually do have some real substance.
When they go personal and/or rude, vulgar etc. (see forum rules), - it is time to ban them. Report the post to the moderator and wait for the outcome.
The other thing that some of the 'non-skeptics' don't do much better either. So who actually provokes whom is sometimes pretty hard to see.

I think those deserve to stay in the discussion who can withstand opposing arguments without goin' nuts when someone does not have the same opinion they do.
 
I not only mean, people on these forums but certaint skeptics
in general. For example the sceptic's dictionary. I sometimes
think I am reading Bernard Gui's inquisitor's manual on how to pursue heretics than instead a real scientific OPEN-MINDED website which is free from Dogmatism.
 
How do you define, "pseudo-skeptic?" More accurately, how do you qualify one since the definition is clear: a "fake skeptic?"

Is a fake skeptic one that pretends to be skeptical but is really a believer in disguise? If so, a believer in what, specifically? And is belief the problem for skepticism or is it belief without the wisdom of evidence?

I think your point is a good one and there are those that profess to be skeptical who demonstrate they can be as dogmatic and fanatical as those they consider "woo-woo's," and I freely admit to being guilty of this from time to time. But perhaps this sort of behavior is simply out of frustration. Discussions with those that believe in the fantastical; the mystical; the supernatural; the paranormal; etc. become quite circular. The believer makes a claim, the skeptic challenges it with a demand for evidence, the believer claims the evidence "is all around you; is common sense; is not apparent to the non-believer; etc."

But when the dust is settled, the result is the same. We are left with a claim for the fantastic without a shred of testable or reproducible evidence. Even if the challenges to the claims of the fantastic are kept to an intellectual level and emotional appeal avoided, the response from the believer crowd is often, you can't truly be skeptical without an "open mind." Skeptics get accused of "refusing to think out of the box."

Fair criticisms in some cases. But there are so many more in which "out of the box" thought processes are worthless because they violate rules of scientific method or the hypothetico-deductive process (a part of the sci-method). And one can only be so open-minded before reality has to be considered. If the hypothesis isn't testable or the results reproducible, its not a valid hypothesis. You can call it speculation, fantasy, wishful thinking, etc., but you cannot call it an hypothesis. You certainly cannot call it a valid explanation. And very often, the "woo-woo" will call it a fact.

I realize the term "woo-woo" is perceived as a pejorative, but a label is necessary to differentiate. Mystery-monger and Significance-junkie is often appropriate, but difficult to type. "Believer" is too subjective. I believe in many things, but few that aren't supported by some sort of evidence or at least potentially falsifiable (I believe your mother was/is a female -an a priori assumption, but one that can be tested).

I think the real root of the complaint with skeptics is that they are frustrating to the "woo-woo" (again, apologies to those that are offended by the term... I'm willing to accept another label if one should be suggested that is equally discriptive). Beyond the term "woo-woo," much of what the skeptic says with regard to their beliefs is considered to be ad hominem in nature. I frequently use the word cult when discussing religions past & present, even with regard to Christianity. This offends them. I'm simply being accurate. Likewise, there are many attitudes and conventions that skeptics use that offend those that believe in the existence of aliens who abduct hapless Earthlings in the middle of the night; those that think others speak to the dead; those that believe a man can bend a spoon with his mind; etc.

All of these notions are challenged and, indeed, the claimants and, by extension, their proponents are challenged as well. These extraordinary claims are sometimes ridiculed and spoken of with derision, and nearly always challenged to be demonstrated with evidence.

Personally, I deride these claims because I think they're intellectually unhealthy. Instead of thinking critically, people are being encouraged to accept the words of others on blind faith. Very often, there's monetary exchange involved and someone gets conned out of a few (or many) dollars, be it through tithing, book sales, seminars, etc There is a flourishing industry that thrives on the wierd; the paranormal; the mystical; etc.

Finally, a person who claims to have some supernatural gift (ESP, telekinesis, remote viewing etc.) but is not able to produce evidence of this claim is, simply put, a liar. And its this assertion that some skeptics will imply without being direct, but I say it quite blountly. Some may believe they have some special abilty -truly believe it- but a lie it is, whether it be to the world, themselves, or both. Unless they can provide the evidence.
 
SkinWalker said:
Finally, a person who claims to have some supernatural gift (ESP, telekinesis, remote viewing etc.) but is not able to produce evidence of this claim is, simply put, a liar. And its this assertion that some skeptics will imply without being direct, but I say it quite blountly. Some may believe they have some special abilty -truly believe it- but a lie it is, whether it be to the world, themselves, or both. Unless they can provide the evidence.

And here in "lies" the problem.

Experiences are not necessarilly repeatable or predictable, often experiences can be a once off only, that leaves the experiencer confused and bewildered.
In the process of seeking answers to their questions about that once off experience they are called a liar.
To consider a person to be lying with out evidence is also uneccessarilly provocative.

I am not saying that to consider a persons testimony as unprovable is incorrect however to go to the extreme and claim a person is lying is.
I think most persons claiming extraordinary experiences certainly need to be grounded sometimes in what is considered as provability, as often they forget that others can not share their enthuisiasm for that experience, to entertain it requires some form of sharable evidence. But to claim that the person is lying suggest a deliberate fraud and is insulting to most persons especially when they feel they have had a "real" experience.
I have had many so called psy experiences and ask whether you would consider me to be a liar for saying so?
 
SkinWalker said:
How do you define, "pseudo-skeptic?" More accurately, how do you qualify one since the definition is clear: a "fake skeptic?"

Is a fake skeptic one that pretends to be skeptical but is really a believer in disguise? If so, a believer in what, specifically? And is belief the problem for skepticism or is it belief without the wisdom of evidence?

I see a true skeptic as one who is completly neutral, free of
belief, may it be Atheistic, religious,or spiritual. He takes
a look at both sides of the argument, how strange they might seem.

As for pseudo-skepticism, for me,it is a form of religious dogmatism. People who adhere to it think that they are always right. And anyone even suggesting the contrary is
mercylessly attacked verbally. And if proof is presented before them of someting that is contrary to their belief,
it simply must be a flawed one.

Forgeting that, what they see as convational scientist are not free of mistakes either.
 
Mani said:
I see a true skeptic as one who is completly neutral, free of
belief, may it be Atheistic, religious,or spiritual. He takes
a look at both sides of the argument, how strange they might seem.

As for pseudo-skepticism, for me,it is a form of religious dogmatism. People who adhere to it think that they are always right. And anyone even suggesting the contrary is
mercylessly attacked verbally. And if proof is presented before them of someting that is contrary to their belief,
it simply must be a flawed one.

Forgeting that, what they see as convational scientist are not free of mistakes either.

I would agree with most of that, especially the final sentence. As a professional scientist, I've made many mistakes and have seen others do likewise.

There are many things, however, that are outright frauds right on the surface. Things that violate very basic scientific principles. So-called "breakthrough discoveries" like perpetual motion, over-unity (free) energy and others. They deserve to be ridiculed.

What would you say to someone who claimed to have seen water freely flowing uphill without some sort of assistance? And other equally impossible things? What about people who make absurd claims and when asked for evidence try to shove that responsibility on the one questioning them?

Would you be so kind as to show us some examples, two or three perhaps, of what you are talking about? And please don't bother with religion because that's entirely a matter of opinion. Those things cannot be proven one way or the other.
 
Mani said:
Is it only me, or are there other people who find that a certaint percentage of Skeptics are pseudo-Skeptics?
Very often when they do a rubutal or a critique of what they call
" crappot theories" or "Pseudo science" they often use techniques which isn't better than intellectual fascism.

They very often attack people who don't follow their view and accuse them of relying on very poor scientific evidence, or of not being a true scientist.
Yet they do the same thing!

This post is probably going to create some heated debate,
but I really needed to get this off of my chest.

P.S. If there are any spelling mistakes than please forgive
me, as haven't writed in English for ages.
Hi Mani, and Welcome.....i really agree with you....frst of, check this out:
'warning psychics' http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/warningtopsychics.htm
it was reading this tother day i was inspired o not even call te so-called 'skeptics' here pseudoskeptics, but rather MATERIALISTS. for they are fundamentalists for materialism. they CLAIM to be open for what you say, but poo poo any attempts to seriously question reality. thata strong indicator.

now, dont get me wrong. i a not saying thatALL phenonema tey dont agree wit is true. i personally have also seen charlatans exposed. one does have to be careful not to be gullible. many people will happiliy part you from your money wit claims they're psychic or whatever, BUT terer are also genuine people who hve had very amazing experiences, and many are left feeling very vulnerable. So te attitude of te materialists to label such people as liars, fanatasists, woo woos, mentally ill, really fukin annoys me. it is condesending, patronizing, and completely unintelligent, AND UNscientific!

So tere are othe ways to expose te materilaists--to tey wont see tis. for example, for all ther smug poistion, they are not even aware--many of tem, of te struggle IN science to understand what consciusness IS. see 'the Hard Problem' (David Chalmers) and commensurae with tat problem is the 'mind/body problem and/or 'brain/mind problem'--ie., HOW can they label people who have had experiences which--as in abduction cases seems to somhow include consciousness and 'solid' matter/energy in a comingling way--liars, mad etc...when tey temSELVES dont know teir own consciousness? a bit like a blindman trying to ride a bike

also hugely ironically, the materilaistis for all teir worship of materialist science mostly ar not aware of te mental illness myth. ie., how materialistic science has created the utter scm of labeling people wit biological dsieases they yterm mental illness when tere is absolutely NO PROOF/EVIDENCE for teir so-called diagnoses!!!

so do you see? they are--the materilists--really at a loss. tey dont even know temselves OR thewir science yet pontificate to the rest of us. it is like a Ship of Fools.
 
Quantum Quack said:
I have had many so called psy experiences and ask whether you would consider me to be a liar for saying so?

If you have yourself convinced that these experiences are some sort of "psi" experiences and not coincidences, etc., then yes. You would be lying to yourself. But that is how magical-thinking works with humanity. We lie to ourselves about a correlation to which we apply a spurious causation.

Even I'm guilty of this from time to time. Not as much now as earlier in my life, but magical-thinking is a natural state of mind for H. sapiens.
 
Light said:
I would agree with most of that, especially the final sentence. As a professional scientist, I've made many mistakes and have seen others do likewise.

There are many things, however, that are outright frauds right on the surface. Things that violate very basic scientific principles. So-called "breakthrough discoveries" like perpetual motion, over-unity (free) energy and others. They deserve to be ridiculed.

What would you say to someone who claimed to have seen water freely flowing uphill without some sort of assistance? And other equally impossible things? What about people who make absurd claims and when asked for evidence try to shove that responsibility on the one questioning them?

Would you be so kind as to show us some examples, two or three perhaps, of what you are talking about? And please don't bother with religion because that's entirely a matter of opinion. Those things cannot be proven one way or the other.


First, I totally agree with you that there are frauds and that
they ruin lives. For example, Scientology. Yet they are
always more criticized than other cases which is also pseudo-science. The chemical imbalance theory is one:

http://healthyskepticism.org/library/ref.php?id=3161

Some people are even wondering if we need a brain:

http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm

Comming back on my previous post about PSEUDO skeptics
ridiculing people who present something that contradicts them; there are many instances that they criticise tests,
yet having no qualification in that certaint area to do so.

Thats the case with Michael Shermer. In 11/2001 he wrote in "Baloney Detection" :

" The biggest problem with the cold fusion debacle, for instance, was not that Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman were wrong. It was that they announced their spectacular discovery at a press conference before other laboratories verified it. Worse, when cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to cling to their claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science. "

Forgeting that he is primaly a psychologist with limmited knowledge to speak in that area. True Scientists having
studied cold fusion wrote 2002 in Thermal and Nuclear Aspects of the Pd/D2O System :

"We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to future energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding. It is time for government funding organizations to invest in this research."

If you think that I missed anything out you said , make a comment,
or a correction, please let me known. ;)
 
SkinWalker said:
If you have yourself convinced that these experiences are some sort of "psi" experiences and not coincidences, etc., then yes. You would be lying to yourself. But that is how magical-thinking works with humanity. We lie to ourselves about a correlation to which we apply a spurious causation.

Even I'm guilty of this from time to time. Not as much now as earlier in my life, but magical-thinking is a natural state of mind for H. sapiens.

What you are guilty of is being a fool.

How can you tell someone that recounts a personal discovery to you that they are wrong? You have no idea what they can do. You never met them except on the internet. You are not omniscient. You would do yourself a favor to open your mind and to be less condescending with people. They will think you are smarter if you stop making foolish declarations like the one above.
 
Skinwalker uses the term 'magical thinking' quite a bit. this reminds me of its use by sucah dualists as Plato. he also wa against magical thinking, and art in general. reason being-- as told in his Republic--tat artists might create new myths which would confilct wit his 'philsopher-kings' one!.....ie., his fascist agenda. so out went anceint Greek mytyology and art and magical poetry etc

tis is the worshippers of 'LOGOS' worrying about the creeping inevitable tides of CHAOS.....which errrrr BIRTHS Logos (^)
 
duendy said:
tis is the worshippers of 'LOGOS' worrying about the creeping inevitable tides of CHAOS.....which errrrr BIRTHS Logos (^)

You meaning a play on the line "The sleep of reason breeds monsters" - Francisco de Goya?
 
Mr Anonymous said:
You meaning a play on the line "The sleep of reason breeds monsters" - Francisco de Goya?
Goya is one of my favourite artists
i see what you are getting at with your INTERPRETATION of that art piece, but that is what it is--your particular interpretation. it DOESN't mean that Goya was backin up you'll materialists' argument/...hehe

MY interpretation is. that itis NOT reason that is being accused ...either by me or Goya. I AM using reason. i couodn't type, articulate, etc etc unless i aslo was using reason like yourselves. Bt my reason sees vast gaps in your reasoing even though that you imply people such as me CAN@T reason as good as you.......!

so that picture is sayig to me tis. that when you cling to 'rationality'--that just beneath the surface lies all the repressed material waiting to come out in the 'distorted' form of 'monsters'

let me give you an excellent--in my opinion. ......years ago, in the very early 1970s, in London, there had been an underground LSD enterprise going on, organized and rund by people with exceptional expertize...ie., the LSD was very good, and kosher

Then comes the bust. really hillarious tale. we have these cops buting the premises, yes? inside th air becomes full of LSD chemicals as the rough-shod cops get to work......hereit is: many of tem began freaking out...seeing monsters...hhahaa. tis is a true story

so moral: the DEEP will NOT go away. it is the essence of your beiong nd is not belonging to you but is interelated throughout Nature and universe.....IFyou deny it it's still here. if you explain i away ditto.......but beware. it can produce monsters for tose who deny it too strongly, and will create evil for those who project their cut-off'reason' onto the world!!!
 
duendy, this might be off topic but you seem to have made quite
a lot of posts, are you a old member?
 
duendy said:
Goya is one of my favourite artists
i see what you are getting at with your INTERPRETATION of that art piece, but that is what it is--your particular interpretation. it DOESN't mean that Goya was backin up you'll materialists' argument/...hehe...

:) ... em, d? Just for the record, not that I believe for one second it'll make the slightest little bit of difference, but actually I was merely just enquiring as to your use of the line "tis is the worshippers of 'LOGOS' worrying about the creeping inevitable tides of CHAOS.....which errrrr BIRTHS Logos (^) " being some sort of play on Goya's The Sleep of Reason...

Haven't actually either made nor posited any interpretation on either, merely asked a simple question. That was actually all. Nothing more than, nothing less.

By your continuous use of the term Materialist I gather you've had some form of epiphany regarding your views of certain aspects of science - although I'm deeply besides myself with joy with your progress, could I ask whether it would be possible at all of finding some way of refraining, or else at the very least curbing, whatever immediate instinct it is that possesses you currently to label everyone who doesn't on the surface immediately appear to share your views under these rhetorical claptrap terms you come up with at all?

It would be awfully nice if you could find some way of compromising possibly, in this regard - after all, the continual thrust of the mainstay of all your arguments does tend to stem from some kind of innate abhorrence of the way society deals with people in terms of prescriptive labelling only there by paying scant regard for the nature of the actual person underneath the label - a view point many, many people herein would both echo and share wholeheartedly were they not prone to find themselves ubiquitously tarred and feathered under these ubiquitous labels you continually insist on placing others under.

Herein but forms one pristine example - you immediately presume a response where in fact non has been given and proceed to thereafter inform the poster of what you interpret their answer to be and their motives for asking the question...

In short, you are acting in no way any better than those labels you presume to be being applied by everyone else - if you read, often times you will find that they are not.

If anyone remains guilty of the crime of pigeon-holing people - it's you.

It was just a simple question d - do you want to try cutting anyone a break anytime soon?
 
Mani said:
duendy, this might be off topic but you seem to have made quite
a lot of posts, are you a old member?
some are in double figures. you are still foetus stage....hehe
 
sory mr A when i read things, posts included i try not to just read superficialy but am also trying to see other stuff that maybe even poster isn't aware of. same wit painting you know. it is true that many pinters may not even realize what their owrk is suggesting to others on different levels

now, mr A, dont recall you asking ny of the others here to refrain from uing such ....harldy courteous terms when referring to people who claim to have had 'non-ordiinary' experiences--like errr WHACKOS< LIARS< MENTALLY ILL< WOO WOOS....all rather insulting , no?

now MY response is not of tat blind prejudice at all. i was clear why i have begin calling the so-called self-proclaimed skeptics here materialists. it was fter reading 'warning to psychics' by Victor Zammit. it made perfect sense, and is not meant to be insulting like say WHACKO is ....it is my showing you where you surieites derive from. ie., from your adherence to materialistic science. is this not so for you?......do you wholly believe in materialistic science?? if not, what do you mean?please explain
 
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