Is it ethical to scientifically investigate religious belief?
- Thread starter greenberg
- Start date
If said investigation is actually scientific (i.e., constrained to questions that can be answered with experimentation or evidence) then yes. However, I have a distinct impression that the questions most people would try to investigate ("does God exist," "can God create a stone so heavy God can't lift it", etc.) do not fall into this category.
There is no reason that any claim should be exempt from scientific investigation inclusive of "does god exist". Theists have put forth an unbelievable postulation and the only method available the rest of the world is scientific.
Greenberg
Regarding any specific belief, I'd say yes. It depends on the consequences. If some scientist goes out of his way to prove that there is no goddess just because his kid decides she's a witch, that's kind of silly. But if, for instance, someone stands up and proposes that a religious story be taught as science, bring on the hypotheses.
As to investigating religious belief itself? Sure. At some point, our belief includes brain functions, and I can't figure why this one function (or set of functions) should be exempt from investigation.
Regarding any specific belief, I'd say yes. It depends on the consequences. If some scientist goes out of his way to prove that there is no goddess just because his kid decides she's a witch, that's kind of silly. But if, for instance, someone stands up and proposes that a religious story be taught as science, bring on the hypotheses.
As to investigating religious belief itself? Sure. At some point, our belief includes brain functions, and I can't figure why this one function (or set of functions) should be exempt from investigation.
Not only ethical, it's a moral imperative.
??? so if a statue starts bleeding, or a shroud is found, or a massive ark is found on a mountain, wouldn't people wanted it to be investigated to prove that it does in fact PROVE the religion.
But none of those are belief. How would you prove a belief? I believe my husband is an idiot by showing you the blackened burnt lawn, but his friends think he's king $hit. Different beliefs.
But none of those are belief. How would you prove a belief? I believe my husband is an idiot by showing you the blackened burnt lawn, but his friends think he's king $hit. Different beliefs.
Absolutely ethical
I think a lot of people believe science will or has debuncked religion. NOTHING could be further from the truth!
Most of the baby boomers (like myself) have indeed been brought up in a public school system that purports to "allow" all beliefs. In fact, the system we have has only allowed an atheistic view of nature. It has treated any belief NOT FOUNDED IN REASON as anathama in our public school system. At the same time our Faith's, such as the Catholic one in which I believe, was excluded for fear of favoritsm. But what resulted, if not intentionally was teaching athiesm. Release time religious education, Sunday schools and the strenghth of parental teaching could not keep pace with what was taught to us nine months of the year for more time than could ever been taught outside of the athistic constructs by which we learned. It is only the few who have persisted in questioning what faith meant, what their faith meant that have persevered to understand what has happened to them in this process and what they chose as a response once it was realised tghe brainwashing they experienced.
So by all means-ASK FIRST WHY YOU BELIEVE AS YOU DO. Then when you see the influences in your life, go one to see what you believe is true. Most of the baby boomers are so caught up in the hedonism of our society given a background of athiesm that the only god left to them is that they can grasp through money and power. There realy is more to nature and God than what they think is true. They just haven't reached out enough to realize it! The so called open minded have been closed minded for so long that they don't want to ask any questions about religion or how or what they believe or how they came to do so.
I ask and keep on asking and try to understand quantum physics, cosmology, ethics, politics, economics and relgion to determine truth. And even if I think I is God, God is Love. And in my religion Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same. But that understanding and embracing of this truth did not come quickly-I am over 55 and continue to grow in understanding and hopefully in my closeness/ of God. And I thank God for giving me the time in my life to eventually find him. He has always been with me.
You see I do not fear saying I doubt something tomorrow. I have come to trust that God will eventually draw me back to him. Now I can't get away from him-I believe. Science discovers what there is. I have come to be much more a Platonist than an Aristotelian. The mind may create-but God will be there saying-"See, isn't what you can make wonderful!" Or..."I'm glad you finally got here-I knew you would eventually."
I think a lot of people believe science will or has debuncked religion. NOTHING could be further from the truth!
Most of the baby boomers (like myself) have indeed been brought up in a public school system that purports to "allow" all beliefs. In fact, the system we have has only allowed an atheistic view of nature. It has treated any belief NOT FOUNDED IN REASON as anathama in our public school system. At the same time our Faith's, such as the Catholic one in which I believe, was excluded for fear of favoritsm. But what resulted, if not intentionally was teaching athiesm. Release time religious education, Sunday schools and the strenghth of parental teaching could not keep pace with what was taught to us nine months of the year for more time than could ever been taught outside of the athistic constructs by which we learned. It is only the few who have persisted in questioning what faith meant, what their faith meant that have persevered to understand what has happened to them in this process and what they chose as a response once it was realised tghe brainwashing they experienced.
So by all means-ASK FIRST WHY YOU BELIEVE AS YOU DO. Then when you see the influences in your life, go one to see what you believe is true. Most of the baby boomers are so caught up in the hedonism of our society given a background of athiesm that the only god left to them is that they can grasp through money and power. There realy is more to nature and God than what they think is true. They just haven't reached out enough to realize it! The so called open minded have been closed minded for so long that they don't want to ask any questions about religion or how or what they believe or how they came to do so.
I ask and keep on asking and try to understand quantum physics, cosmology, ethics, politics, economics and relgion to determine truth. And even if I think I is God, God is Love. And in my religion Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same. But that understanding and embracing of this truth did not come quickly-I am over 55 and continue to grow in understanding and hopefully in my closeness/ of God. And I thank God for giving me the time in my life to eventually find him. He has always been with me.
You see I do not fear saying I doubt something tomorrow. I have come to trust that God will eventually draw me back to him. Now I can't get away from him-I believe. Science discovers what there is. I have come to be much more a Platonist than an Aristotelian. The mind may create-but God will be there saying-"See, isn't what you can make wonderful!" Or..."I'm glad you finally got here-I knew you would eventually."
I think so too.
The problem with investigating phenomena that religions claim they exist is that those phenomena are often defined in a manner that is of little or no use to science. For example, various religious definitions of what "God" is - many such definitions are vague and even contradictory.
Although this doesn't prevent scientific research, it certainly leads it in a miriad of directions, making it so versatile as to be of little use.
experiments to prove religion by religious people is unethical - religion is about belief, not proof, if you prove it it is no longer religion but fact.
But un religious people can test for it
But un religious people can test for it
A belief cannot be investigated scientifically. There are some religions that
base their doctrines on reality like Buddhaism. It is based on a man and his
thoughts. The problem is that many people tend to add to Buddhas diaries
to fit their own lifestyles.
base their doctrines on reality like Buddhaism. It is based on a man and his
thoughts. The problem is that many people tend to add to Buddhas diaries
to fit their own lifestyles.
Sure it can. If you believe that praying to a particular deity increases the chances of something happening (say, surviving an illness) that can certainly be investigated scientifically.
but when it doesn't pan out, they just say God answered the prayer, but said 'no'.
If you do it for a large group of people and god always answers "no" for everyone, then you have scientifically demonstrated that prayers aren't useful for healing people.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
actually the studies show that sick people who are prayed for do better than those who aren't prayed for. Even when the people praying are fundamentalists! I can only assure the athiests in the forum that this is vasly more distressing to pagans like myself.
Challenger78
Valued Senior Member
Wouldn't that be from the Moral support though ? not due to any other worldly influences ?
lol, prove it.
Evidence please... and please note that for every study you put forth, there will be one that says otherwise.
The meta-view is very much one of prayer having no discernible effect.
e.g. this
No, they don't. Every serious study has shown that prayer has no effect. There were a few studies that came out a while ago that were all done by the same guy that claimed prayer had an effect, but the author later admitted to faking his data.
Not that the specifics of how the studies turned out really matters to the point at hand – which is that you can scientifically investigate a religious claim.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
And the rest of your post illustrates why this is the case.
Your belief comes not from reason, but from the instinct that humans have to believe in the supernatural. This is called an "archetype" and it's something that science has helped us understand. We accept archetypes as true because they feel true, and your post illustrates this. There is no empirical observation of the real universe to substantiate anything you say, merely your own feelings.
Man's uniquely large forebrain gives him the unique ability to override instincts with reasoned and learned behavior. The history of civilization is a ten thousand year effort to do just that, starting with the pack-social instinct that restricted us to living in small clans of hunter-gatherers.
Civilization has made colossal progress since then. But the instinct that stands in the way now is the instinct to believe in the supernatural. Religion today--as it has many times in the past--threatens to destroy civilization. In fact, the forces of Abrahamic religion have already destroyed three civilizations: Egypt, Aztec and Inca. Your own beloved religion, Catholicism, was responsible for obliterating the indigenous civilization in North America. The Olmec/Maya/Aztec civilization was an irreplaceable treasure that is lost forever. The Olmecs were the only people on earth who managed to build and maintain a civilization without draft animals. The things we could have learned from their descendants about human ingenuity, technology and philosophy could have revolutionized the world. Instead, your people burned their libraries because they were "heathens." You should be ashamed of your religion and make every effort to free yourself from its barbaric evil nature, not be proud and smug about it.
And the last thing on earth you should be doing is to evangelize it to other people. Any educational system that suppresses this cancer from spreading is doing a good job.
The only way we can continue to maintain and advance civilization is to take the next step, and overcome our instinct for religion with reason and learning.
Religion makes people feel really good, right. So does killing people they hate, stealing things they can't afford to buy, and taking heroin. You have to rise above this, dude. Use your reason and learning to transcend your primitive Stone Age instinct to believe in religion, as so many of us have been able to do.
It is a duty for scientists to discuss religious belief and religions in general.
For one thing, they are pervasive in society to the point that they have profound effects on policy and societal behaviors and norms. For another, there may be redeeming qualities that exist in some religions that are worth saving, preserving, duplicating or enhancing. Like languages, there are many religions that are going extinct in the world as time goes on as the last of their adherents die off. This isn't true with large Religions like Christianity and Islam and the major cults that comprise them, but with aboriginal religions and cults in Africa, South America, Polynesia and even the United States, extinction is occurring all the time. It would be nice to study, examine and document what these religions have to offer and what these people believed.
Another reason to study religion and religious belief is because of the deleterious effect that many religions have on their societies. While there is admittedly much good that religions can provide, there is also much bad. Understanding what a culture believes and why is important to finding ways to motivate change, perhaps even without being overly confrontational. Scientifically examining belief gives insight into why believers are motivated to commit atrocities in the name of their beliefs: for instance, most people know that the 19 hijackers that flew planes into skyscrapers and the Pentagon were Muslim extremist. The assumption by many is that Muslim extremism arises from poverty and oppression. That doesn't account, however, for the fact that these hijackers were well-educated and professionals with everything to loose. Thus, scientifically examining belief is vitally important.
Many believers are quick to recognize the importance of examining beliefs of aboriginals and extremists, but reluctant to subject their own beliefs to scrutiny. If find this to be hypocritical since no human institution or paradigm deserves a free pass from inquiry. There's an unwritten taboo on examining religion, particularly Christianity, and questioning its origins, motivations, evolution, development, social effects, social appeal, etc. But, like it or not, these are all valid questions and the scientific study of religion is a viable and active field of academia.
To summarize, it would be unethical for science to not study religion and religious belief.